Cautionary tale - stovetop starter boiling in Erlenmeyers

[Gadjobrinus]

20+ years never happened.

-but I do know that's the last time I'll be boiling wort directly in an Erlenmeyer to sterilize. Pressure canned wort from here on out.

 

[PCABrewing]

Ouch, did you catch it before the pieces fell out?
When did it happen, as it was heating?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ouch, did you catch it before the pieces fell out?
When did it happen, as it was heating?

Yeah, I was standing right there - I was boiling 4 liters in a separate pot and had this 2L and a 5L stovetop boiling water to sterilize. I heard the "tink" and wondered what it was and saw it in time to kill the flame and prevent the thing shattering and sending shards everywhere. Very lucky.

 

[PCABrewing]

My cooktop has cast iron grates and I have often wondered if the physical contact point on a glass vessel might act to sink or conduct enough heat from that point to cause uneven expansion or contraction resulting in such a fracture.
Like when I remove a hot dish from the oven and set it on the grate to cool.

Glad it didn't cause any more damage than the ruined flask.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

My cooktop has cast iron grates and I have often wondered if the physical contact point on a glass vessel might act to sink or conduct enough heat from that point to cause uneven expansion or contraction resulting in such a fracture.
Like when I remove a hot dish from the oven and set it on the grate to cool.

Glad it didn't cause any more damage than the ruined flask.

Good thinking, hadn't thought of that.

 

[MaxStout]

The important thing is you didn't get hurt. Glad to hear you're OK.

You can get mesh heating pads to put under flasks and beakers. They help distribute the heat. Still, even borosilicate glass can get thermal stress and break.

A little OT: heating water in a flask in a microwave is a bad idea. Found out the hard way a few years back. After running on high several minutes it appeared the water wasn't coming to a boil. I opened to microwave, grabbed the Erlenmeyer with a pair of tongs, and WHUMP! Superheated water shot straight up. Didn't get any on me, but it startled the hell out of me.

 

[PCABrewing]

The important thing is you didn't get hurt. Glad to hear you're OK.

You can get mesh heating pads to put under flasks and beakers. They help distribute the heat. Still, even borosilicate glass can get thermal stress and break.

A little OT: heating water in a flask in a microwave is a bad idea. Found out the hard way a few years back. After running on high several minutes it appeared the water wasn't coming to a boil. I opened to microwave, grabbed the Erlenmeyer with a pair of tongs, and WHUMP! Superheated water shot straight up. Didn't get any on me, but it startled the hell out of me.

Yikes! I've heard of that happening with viscous stuff like oatmeal.
I imagine the taper made the eruption more violent.
Probably has to do with the focal-point of the microwave energy causing uneven heating.

 

[passedpawn]

My cooktop has cast iron grates and I have often wondered if the physical contact point on a glass vessel might act to sink or conduct enough heat from that point to cause uneven expansion or contraction resulting in such a fracture.
Like when I remove a hot dish from the oven and set it on the grate to cool.

Glad it didn't cause any more damage than the ruined flask.

It can happen on glasstop cooktops also. Ask me how I know... BTW, the small one in the back also let loose about 1 second after I took this pic. If you look closely, you can see the crack. The big one 100% was borosilicate and had been in service this way for 10 yrs.

Cause? The DME was not in solution - it was sorta caked on the bottom and uneven heating/expansion between the bottom and top cause problem.

 

[day_trippr]

Thoughts and prayers

I've said it often, there is no need to boil starter wort made from DME...

 

[passedpawn]

Thoughts and prayers

I've said it often, there is no need to boil starter wort made from DME...

If you're suggesting just boiling water, adding yeast, and dumping DME in there, I agree. Never really thought about that. I've added DME to a fermenting beer before (that can be explosive, be careful).

But for a starter, it's really important to start with sterile media, so boil something.

 

[day_trippr]

You cannot achieve "sterile" by boiling under atmospheric conditions (hence the pressure cooker requirement at minimum).
You can only sanitize/pasteurize. Which is good enough.
I've never had an evident infection in almost 20 years of brewing...

Cheers!

 

[HBT_Admin]

That is a shame it happened. Sounds like the others have some good ideas to keep it from happening again.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You cannot achieve "sterile" by boiling under atmospheric conditions (hence the pressure cooker requirement at minimum).
You can only sanitize/pasteurize. Which is good enough.
I've never had an evident infection in almost 20 years of brewing...

Cheers!

Do you literally mean just grab a sanitized flask, boil up/cool down water, dump the right amount of dme in it, pitch the yeast and go? Ha!

How do you get the DME evenly distributed, i.e., not in clumps?

 

[passedpawn]

Do you literally mean just grab a sanitized flask, boil up/cool down water, dump the right amount of dme in it, pitch the yeast and go? Ha!

How do you get the DME evenly distributed, i.e., not in clumps?

I've dumped DME into fermentors. Believe me, the yeast know what to do. However, if it's an active fermentation, there might be a Leo Szilard moment.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I've dumped DME into fermentors. Believe me, the yeast know what to do. However, if it's an active fermentation, there might be a Leo Szilard moment.

Ha, incredible. Had no idea. Thanks guys.

Had to look up Leo Szilard. Man talk about kismet Andy. Just watched Oppenheimer a couple days ago.

 

[passedpawn]

Ha, incredible. Had no idea. Thanks guys.

Had to look up Leo Szilard. Man talk about kismet Andy. Just watched Oppenheimer a couple days ago.

Read the incredible The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Leo is the shitz. First paragraph of this seminal work. I have a 1st ed printing (one of my hobbies lol).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Read the incredible The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Leo is the shitz. First paragraph of this seminal work. I have a 1st ed printing (one of my hobbies lol).

View attachment 843229

Awesome, thanks Andy!

 

[day_trippr]

Do you literally mean just grab a sanitized flask, boil up/cool down water, dump the right amount of dme in it, pitch the yeast and go? Ha!
How do you get the DME evenly distributed, i.e., not in clumps?

My process:
- take stashed jar of over-built starter yeast out of fridge to warm up in kitchen.
- rinse E-flask with standard Star San mix and stand up-side-down on small dessert plate to drain with the stir bar to get it wetted as well.
- bring required liters of water to boil on stove in suitable size pot. I usually do 5 liter starters (2/3 for pitching 11 gallons, 1/3 overbuild for stashing) and use an 8 quart pot with a lid.
- measure out DME in a bowl and add a tsp of nutes while water comes to boil.
- put stopper in sink drain, remove boiling pot from stove, set in kitchen sink, stir in 3 drops of Fermcap, then stir in DME and nutes.
- lid pot, turn on cold water, fill to wort level, and chill to pitching temperature with an occasional stir and Thermapen check.
- once wort is chilled, set pot on counter and drain sink, put stir bar in e-flask and set that in the sink.
- pour yeast into e-flask, then pour nearly all of the wort into the e-flask and use the last cup or so to rinse out the mason jar.
- stick foam stopper in e-flask, take down to brewery space and hit starter with a liter or two of O2 through a .5 micron wand
- put e-flask on stir plate.
- clean up kitchen.
- pour a beer

Never any risk to The Spousal Unit's kitchen -the range in particular....

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

I know they're expensive but I've went to proper canned wort starter . I got tired of dealing with DME and always worried about the flask shattering.

 

[DavidWood2115]

I usually do 5 liter starters (2/3 for pitching 11 gallons, 1/3 overbuild for stashing)

What size E-flask do you use? Is Fermcap enough to keep a 5L starter from overflowing a 5L E-flask? If you use a 6L E-flask, where did you get it? These can be very expensive.

 

[day_trippr]

It's marked for 5 liters but if filled to the brim it's close to 6. Bought locally back when Strange Brew was still in business (miss that place!)
Yes, 3 drops of Fermcap before adding the DME to the pot of boiled water keeps that from erupting, and then also keeps the starter in the flask - I don't recall ever having an overnight overflow on the stir plate...

Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

Glad you didn't get hurt!

I stopped boiling a long time ago. I make starters from bottled Poland Spring water. I don't boil at all and haven't had any issues so far!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks for the help guys, very interesting going forward. I will try this when it comes to starting up from a smack pack or similar. The issue I have otherwise is that I do a lot of propagation from an inoculation loop up - e.g., loop-10 ml culture tube/100 ml/500 ml/2500 ml. For the initial stages, I need sterility, even if later sanitization will suffice (and thanks again on the "cold wort" pitching - wild, never knew about it).

Seeing a 15.5 AA PC for $149 shipped, may just go with that. Not ideal given it's size, I think, but I don't mind doing several quart batches in a "sterile starter" day.

 

[Brooothru]

Once, maybe twice per year I pressure can a couple dozen starter worts in 1 qt. Mason jars. Clean and sanitize jars and lids, simmer in gently boiling water before filling. Allow jars to cool while draining. Add DME, fill with tap water, add a pinch of nutrient, loosely secure cap, pressure cook @ 1 BAR for :20mins. Allow pressure to dissipate. Remove jars from pressure cooker, secure the cap ring, and wait for the cap to pop closed as the contents cool. Then store in a cool, dark location.

If any cap fails to seal, I'll refrigerate it and try to use it within the next two weeks. Otherwise, the starters should be shelf stable for "quite some time", but I won't push it past 10-12 months. I shoot for 1.038SG/9.5P as a target for optimum propagation, which if diluted 1:1 with additional water makes a perfect starter for reviving older yeast samples.

The only thing I use Erlenmeyer flasks for any more is spinning on a stir plate. Unless you're willing to pay the
$BigBucks$ for lab grade equipment, most of the online stuff is either not borosilicate or has tiny flaws which may (or likely may not) be visible to the eye but which will likely shatter at the least opportune time.

 

[Bobby_M]

Out of necessity, I switched to boiling starters in a small pot and I use a little micro immersion chiller before dumping it into a pre-sanitized flask. I've broken flasks and learned how to "baby" the heat up and cool down steps to prevent cracking but it's not worth the trouble anyway.

 

[HopSing]

@Gadjobrinus Glad you're ok. Been there, done that. Not fun. Cleaning up from that event sucks too. The entire hour it took to pull the stove out to wipe the sides of the range and mop the floor and clean the burnt on stuff from the glass cooktop I kept thinking it could have been much worse. Same reason I no longer use glass carboys; it's just a matter of time before Murphy's Law comes to visit.

I've adopted @day_trippr process almost exactly except I'll do a short boil of the DME in the stainless pot before chilling it in the sink. DME should be sanitary, but as you all know, it is extremely hygroscopic so I'm concerned there is a chance of some nasties getting in or on the bag of DME. Boiling it for 10 minutes makes me feel better. Not sure if it provides any additional protection, but worth it for me.

That said, I'm likely going to invest in a pressure canner at some point in the near future. Plan is to overbuild a mash by a gallon or two then partially fill a bunch of quart size mason jars with the pre-boiled / pre-hopped wort and top off with water to 1.040 and put it through the canning process while the rest of my typical brew day continues. Anyone see a downside to this approach?

I've also had an Erlenmeyer flask slip out of my hands while cleaning it. I caught it before it dropped, but as an alternative I got a glass tea kettle that has a nice handle. Works great for 1L starters.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013JM253U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

~HopSing.

 

[mschoeffler]

Maybe I’m just lucky, but for 20+ years I’ve boiled the same 2L or 5L flask and placed them directly into an ice bath with no issues.

 

[Agent]

@HopSing My order of preferences is first, to partigyle a canner load of starter from a huge mash. But usually not from stouts, as I want to keep my starter as universally functional as possible.

Second is to just do a standalone mash parallel with a brewday. I've got space and kettles galore, so its nice to be able to keep the two separate.

 

[whoaru99]

@Brooothru

Reading you process, I understand heating the lids but I'm not following why you'd preboil the jars if you're pressure canning?

 

[Brooothru]

@Brooothru

Reading you process, I understand heating the lids but I'm not following why you'd preboil the jars if you're pressure canning?

Not really preboiling, but just having the jars in hot water, and the lids in a sauce pan. I pull a jar out and invert it on a draining rack, so it’s warm/hot when I add the DME, nutrient and water. Place a capping lid on the mix, with a loosely sealed collar, put it in the pressure cooker.

You’re right that a germs, bacteria or wild yeast won’t likely survive the 250F @ 1 BAR environment, but why not eliminate as many of them as a pretext to the canning? I know my jars are really ‘clean’ from the start.

 

[MaxStout]

Home canners usually boil their jars prior to filling. The stakes are higher with home-canned food, particularly low-acid foods, given the pathogens that can take hold. But not a bad idea to employ similar precautions with wort.

 

[whoaru99]

Home canners usually boil their jars prior to filling.

Which is sorta why I asked because the info I've read on pressure canning says it's not necessary.

The apparatus in the picture is not a pressure canner.

All that said, I got no problem if anybody pressure canning chooses to preboil, but that's a different matter than needing to for (food) safety.

 

[passedpawn]

I can turkey in quart masons (why is it called canning). I don't preboil. I've left it in the cabinet for years and I'm here to tell the tale. I have a legit pressure canner that looks like equipment the explosive ordinance disposal guys would use lol.

Home canners usually boil their jars prior to filling. The stakes are higher with home-canned food, particularly low-acid foods, given the pathogens that can take hold. But not a bad idea to employ similar precautions with wort.

View attachment 843355

 

[day_trippr]

I can turkey in quart masons

I'm sure there's a good reason but I still have to ask: Why?

Cheers!

 

[Deadalus]

Working with hot jars is to prevent them from breaking when canning. Removing the air bubbles, also to prevent breaking, doesn't seem particularly troublesome for wort but if you happen to get bubbles clinging to the side, sweep the sides with a spatula or something flat. The air bubbles will pop the jar apart. I've had it happen a few times in both a water canner and a pressure canner. (Not with wort.) Don't use a table knife, or at least don't use the "cutting" side as it can scratch and weaken the glass. OK I use a plastic one but don't use the cutting side. Most canning kits have a flat spatula that's what it's for.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Several years ago, after deciding to ditch the whirly box and feeling comfortable enough with the SNS method to burn my ships and go all-in on SNS, I figured it was a good opportunity to really question everything I thought I knew about starters.

As such, I learned that storing my 1gal SNS jugs wet in a solution of iodophor worked perfectly fine for starters. I know you're supposed to pucker up and be super duper careful and super duper serious about starters, but they're nothing more than small batches of beer. If it's good enough for your fermenter, why isn't it good enough for your starter vessel? Gooses and ganders, or ganders and gooses, or something. It works, okay?

Can't say I miss the Erlenmeyer flask volcanoes.

 

[Deadalus]

Several years ago, after deciding to ditch the whirly box and feeling comfortable enough with the SNS method to burn my ships and go all-in on SNS, I figured it was a good opportunity to really question everything I thought I knew about starters.

As such, I learned that storing my 1gal SNS jugs wet in a solution of iodophor worked perfectly fine for starters. I know you're supposed to pucker up and be super duper careful and super duper serious about starters, but they're nothing more than small batches of beer. If it's good enough for your fermenter, why isn't it good enough for your starter vessel? Gooses and ganders, or ganders and gooses, or something. It works, okay?

Can't say I miss the Erlenmeyer flask volcanoes.

You can keep a full container solution of iodophor or starsan in a glass fermenter and that should keep the container sanitized but that gets emptied and wort is then put in it. In the case of brewing a batch, the wort gets boiled then transferred. I don't see how you are equating that to the starter, because it seems like you are saying that you don't boil the wort for the starter. If you are, you are doing the same thing. I'm not sure what point you are advocating for or advocating to drop?

 

[Deadalus]

I busted one and I think it was two e-flasks on an electric old style spiral burner back in the nineties. I am pretty sure I had one of those diffuser screens but still broke another one. It's way worse on something that is not a flat top. And most tenants don't clean underneath where the elements are in a rental to begin with, so there was that too!

 

[Bramling Cross]

You can keep a full container solution of iodophor or starsan in a glass fermenter and that should keep the container sanitized but that gets emptied and wort is then put in it. In the case of brewing a batch, the wort gets boiled then transferred. I don't see how you are equating that to the starter, because it seems like you are saying that you don't boil the wort for the starter. If you are, you are doing the same thing. I'm not sure what point you are advocating for or advocating to drop?

If you successfully can your wort, it's sanitized, right? Using the SNS method, you just pour your starter wort in your jug, pitch your yeast, then shake it.

That's too much work for me. I've built a lid that incorporates a stone. I pitch before I go to bed, blast it with 02, then give it a squirt when I fire up my rig the following morning.

Starter done, pitch at noon.

Honestly, I'm using Proper Pitch more and more these days because canning wort is a drag and sixteen bucks is a lot cheaper than the value that I place on my Sunday morning.

 

[IslandLizard]

My process: [...]

Pretty much the way I've always been doing it, using a 9 qt. stainless IKEA pot and induction plate.

Except for:

remove boiling pot from stove, set in kitchen sink, stir in 3 drops of Fermcap, then stir in DME and nutes.
- lid pot, turn on cold water

So you don't boil the DME, although most modern day extract beer processes recommend you do, to pasteurize it.
Why not just boil it for 2-5 minutes for all security?

That's what I do. I boil the DME for 5 minutes, then turn off heat (induction plate) and put on the sanitized lid. The bottom of the lid and pot's headspace will be steam sanitized for the next 1-2 minutes, before placing the pot in the sink with cold water.