Can't get real hop flavor

[Beenym88]

Yes, that's the one.

Here's the link to their 2019 water quality report:

https://www.kroger.com/asset/2019_bottled_water_quality_report
I just got some of their "purified" (reverse osmosis) water, spring water, and distilled. I filled my five gallon containers at the Glacier water machine too. But... it hasn't been serviced since 11/18/2020. Not sure the filters are going to be in tip top shape by now.

I'll use the distilled in the Zombie Dust recipe. Should I add gypsum to the sparge and mash water at a rate of two grams a gallon? Or just mash?

I'll probably need acid for pH adjustment. I'll have to see what I can wring out of Bru N water.

Is there a big difference in what you get out of the hops at 212 F (flameout) versus 190 F?

I think there is a big difference. Hops are only considered flavor and aroma hops in the last 20 or less minutes but my personal opinion is you don’t get much until you hit the 10 minute mark. Any beer that your drinking that had that bright hop flavor is definitely heavy on hops after the boil so flameout, whirlpool, and dry hop. I was talking once to the brewer at my favorite local brewery and he didn’t get specific but he said I use a **** ton of hops during dry hop until i upped it past what I thought you were supposed to do I wasn’t getting what I was looking for. But you can over do it what I do is sample my beer when it’s a new recipe and decide if I’m done adding hops are now my most recent one I’m going to keg today is 8oz galaxy and 6oz cashmere it’s so fruity and I can’t wait for it to be carbed.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Is there a big difference in what you get out of the hops at 212 F (flameout) versus 190 F?

Depends on the time spend at that temperature and the hop compounds that are lost in the temperature range.

While my "hop sampler" batches don't have precise temperature control (generally the temperature falls from boiling to around 150F over 20 to 30 minutes), it still yields enjoyable beer with aromas and flavors that are typical for the hop that I use.

See also The IBU is a LIE! Kind of..... | Experimental Homebrewing

 

[a_gunslinger]

What do you mean by this? Your wort and everything tossed in at flame out/whirlpool is sanitized. Put a lid on your kettle if you’re worried about airborne items falling in.

Sometimes this is harder on an intermediate sytem, where you have the immersion wort chiller in the kettle last 15m to sanitize. Cant remove it and it interferes with lid going back on tightly.

 

[a_gunslinger]

I ordered the bucket screen and some tea infusers from Amazon. I'll pop by my local homebrew shop to look for the mesh bags and spigots.

Might want to try one of these taller stainless dry hop filters. Better mass/volume than tea ones, and I think better beer contact than the spider. Never felt like the beer was all getting thru the spider efficiently. These just drop in, they sink, down in the turbulance. FWIW

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073QMXXL7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[eric19312]

Sometimes this is harder on an intermediate sytem, where you have the counterflow wort chiller in the kettle last 15m to sanitize. Cant remove it and it interferes with lid going back on tightly.

I think you mean immersion chiller.

 

[tripeland]

Do you know if the hops you use are fresh or have been handled properly by the supplier/HB shop? Are they sold in purged or vacuum packed bags? Does the shop store the hops in a refrigerator or just on the shelf at room temperature?

 

[ncbrewer]

When I've popped the yellow beers open, even after a month, I don't usually see any darkening. I will look more closely the next time I open a bottle. But the color seems to be stable.

I agree that it's probably not an oxidation issue, but from this statement it seems like you don't know for sure if the beer is darkening. It might be worthwhile to brew a new batch with the same recipe as one that you have some left-over bottles from. Then compare the fresh beer on bottling day against the left-over beer from the previous batch. I'm trusting that the same recipe will ensure that the beer will have the same initial color. If anybody knows this will not work, I hope they will chime in.

 

[a_gunslinger]

I think you mean immersion chiller.

er, yep

 

[Nick Z]

The hops are fresh, at least the pellets are. Got them mostly from Yakima Valley hops. Vacuum sealed in mylar. Others are from the local brew shop. The pellets are green and have good aroma. I've tried different kinds of hops from different vendors and I get the same results. Much as I would like to blame the ingredients, I know I am the one to blame.

The more I read and the more I think about it, this is just damn strange. Getting some hop flavor in a beer shouldn't be this hard.

As an example: The centennial blonde ale batches I've brewed, which don't have large hop additions, have been more hoppy than the batches I've brewed where I use ten times that amount of hops.

And the centennial blonde ale was racked into a bucket for bottling. And was racked to secondary before that.

Oh, and I popped open a centennial blonde ale the other day that was over a month old. Still nice and blonde.

Does trub in the bottle screw up hop flavor? When bottling straight from the fermenter I get trub in some of the bottles. And yes, I drain about two cups prior to actually putting the beer into bottles.

If the issue isn't the water I'm thinking it lies with the flameout/whirlpool additions. Either it's too hot or not enough. Or it's hot side aeration when I pull off the lid to stir. Or maybe even cold side oxidation when run the chilled beer through the 200 micron paint strainer. It usually smells hoppy going in to the fermenter.

Edit: Screwing up the hot side additions doesn't explain the lack of aroma from the dry hop charge. That probably is cold side oxidation.

 

[eric19312]

The centennial blonde story says there is hope for you yet.

For what it's worth most of us talking about cold side oxidation are focusing on preventing exposure to oxygen after fermentation is complete. Before fermentation is complete the yeast will take up any oxygen quite quickly. Bottling will introduce some oxygen but it has advantage of in the bottle refermentation that will take up the introduced oxygen.

Have you really examined your sanitation practices? Seems like others have had lingering batch to batch issues that traced back to harboring a contamination in their equipment. Autosphon, bottling wand, plastic spigots, small scratches in plastic fermentors....

 

[Immocles]

@Nick Z
I have ran into similar problems brewing IPAs. It took me about 4 tries before I landed a good one, and on occasion still run into a brew that is seriously lacking in hop flavor. For me, bottling off the fermenter helped. I also tweaked my processes of hopping a bit, and it helped. For example, my flameout additions were getting lost because I was tossing them in, and just chilling immediately. I've since started tossing the hops in, then covering the kettle and letting it sit for 5-10mins before chilling. I also started doing whirlpool/hop stand additions at 170-175F for 15m. It might just be me, but I have rotten luck with us05 in hoppy beers. I switched to notty for most of my ales and had better luck, which is completely assbackwards. Note, that I've only skimmed this thread over the course of multiple days, so you may well be doing these things already, but I do recall reading your whirlpool additions seemed to be at a higher temp than I would normally see.

I wish I had better input, but I havent been able to completely figure it out myself. I rattled off like 3 great tasting IPAs in a row and thought I was in the clear, only to randomly get hit with another muted brew. As bottlers, we will battle some obvious forms of oxidization, but I can generally keep flavors pretty respectable while watching the color lose its brightness.

 

[Nick Z]

I have not, to my knowledge, had a sanitation issue. I use liberal amounts of oxyclean and starsan. And the little big mouth fermenter was brand new. Not that the fermenter is the only possible source of contamination.

I tried throwing hops in at flame out immediately. Then I tried chilling down to 150 and throwing hops in. Same lack of hoppiness.

I'm considering trying both with the flame out additions. Half at flameout, let it sit until it hits 180-170 and throw in the rest.

What about using Imperial Pub (i.e. WLP002) or Imperial Barbarian for the yeast?

I'm going to do a beer using Bru-1 hops tomorrow and was thinking of using Barbarian.

 

[marc1]

For the next brew, taste your beer at every step you have access to it: wort after chilling, any hydrometer samples, at packaging, etc. This may help to narrow down where a problem may be.
As you've discussed, use distilled water this time around to rule bad RO machines out.
Use gypsum to get sulfate to ~150, and CaCl2 to get Cl to ~75ish. Add acid if needed to get a good mash pH. Don't add other salts.
Take some pictures of your fermentation and bottling setup when you do it, there may be something that is being missed that will be more obvious in a picture.

 

[Nick Z]

I'll do the tasting. I am going to use Imperial Pub yeast. It flocs nicely, if nothing else.

And I have a few clear bottles. I'll use a couple of those when bottling and put them in a dark place so I can observe any color changes.

Can water adjustments make that big a difference in hop flavor?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Can water adjustments make that big a difference in hop flavor?

Yes. That's why I wrote reply #140.

 

[Nick Z]

Thank you.

I did a batch this morning using distilled water and used the grain bill and water profile of the Brulosophy Hop Chronicles recipe. I am using four ounces of Bru-1 hops. I want to be sure the issue isn't simply not throwing enough hops at it.

Fermenting in a Little Big Mouth fermenter with spigot using Pub (WLP002) yeast.

 

[Nick Z]

Here is a photo if the wort a few hours after yeast pitch

 

[Nick Z]

My concern is that it seems darker than I would have expected for a grain bill of mostly two row and a small amount of vienna malt. Did I already oxidize the hops?

 

[ATLBeer]

No. The fermenter always looks darker than a glass of beer will.

Also oxidation happens after fermentation and that has barely started, if at all.

 

[marc1]

Show a picture of the whole fermenter with airlock, etc.

 

[Nick Z]

 

[Nick Z]

Cool. Thanks

 

[McKnuckle]

Looks completely normal. Wow, 4 oz. of hops in a gallon batch. That's 8x what I would use. Quantity should not be a factor.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

At this level in the ferementer, having a blow-off tube close by would be prudent. Statistically the blow off tube may not be used (but statistics don't have to clean up after themselves ).

View attachment 717154

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'll try the gypsum process on a bottle today. It can't hurt to try.

What did you find?

 

[Nick Z]

At this level in the ferementer, having a blow-off tube close by would be prudent. Statistically the blow off tube may not be used (but statistics don't have to clean up after themselves ).

Since I started using Fermcap S I haven't needed a blow off tube. Great stuff both in the boil and during fermentation. Doesn't seem to effect head retention at all.

I just opened a bottle of one of Tropical White Session IPA (a recipe by Drew Beechum). After a month in the bottle it is still nice and yellow. Hop flavor is minimal but the color held. It was bottled straight from the fermenter using carbonation drops.

My Bohemian Pilsner, which was bottled using a normal bottling bucket, is showing signs of darkening. I'm guessing I got oxidation of the saaz hops.

I forgot to do the gypsum test. Sorry. I will get on it shortly.

I threw a ton of hops in so that I could eliminate that as a possible variable. If the hop flavor doesn't come through I can be pretty sure it wasn't for lack of hops.

Even though it's pretty clear that the brewer, not is ingredients, is the culprit.

Thanks.

 

[Nick Z]

Update:

I tried the gypsum test but I couldn't get the gypsum to dissolve very well. Even so, I added some to a beer. It seemed like it made the beer taste a little more crisp and salty. But that could simply be wishful thinking.

I am about to bottle the Zombie Dust clone today, in which liberal amounts of gypsum were used. Going to bottle from the spigot with carbonation drops.

 

[Nick Z]

I just popped open a bottle of the Bell's Two Hearted clone. Bottled fifteen days ago. It has a hop addition at 30 minutes in the boil and then a dry hop. I used the pale ale water profile in Bru'N Water (so it had some mineralization), I used distilled water, I bottled straight from the fermenter, and used wine preserve gas at capping with O2 absorbing caps.

It has a small amount of hop flavor but not much. Not nearly as much as it should. If I didn't know it was Centennial I would assume it is a much less pungent hop. The hop pellets were fresh.

It doesn't taste bad. It has the proper light amber color. It doesn't taste like cardboard. It has very little hop aroma, despite the dry hopping.

This continues to vex me.

 

[marc1]

I just popped open a bottle of the Bell's Two Hearted clone. Bottled fifteen days ago. It has a hop addition at 30 minutes in the boil and then a dry hop. I used the pale ale water profile in Bru'N Water (so it had some mineralization), I used distilled water, I bottled straight from the fermenter, and used wine preserve gas at capping with O2 absorbing caps.

It has a small amount of hop flavor but not much. Not nearly as much as it should. If I didn't know it was Centennial I would assume it is a much less pungent hop. The hop pellets were fresh.

It doesn't taste bad. It has the proper light amber color. It doesn't taste like cardboard. It has very little hop aroma, despite the dry hopping.

This continues to vex me.

How many oz/gallon for your hop additions?

 

[Nick Z]

About half an ounce of Centennial for a one gallon batch, in the boil. Then a 0.8 ounce dry hop charge. I punched the five gallon recipe into Beersmith and then scaled it and those are the figures it gave me.

It was 5 grams/0.17 ounces of Centennial at 45 minutes. Then 10 grams/0.3 ounces at 30 minutes.

Then 25 grams/0.8 ounces of dry hop.