Can yeast nutrient make up for low cell count?

[balrog]

THe beers I generally make, with yeast calc settings set kinda high (1-2 million per ml per deg Plato rather than 0.5), generally suggest 300 billion and I make 400 to save 100 for next starter. "Overbuilding" it is called.

You can indeed harvest from bottles of certain craft beers, the caveats being that you'll have to make several step up starters to get to even 100b, and the yeast they use to bottle condition might not be the yeast used to ferment.

 

[MHBT]

"What is actually better, is making a stepped up starter out of a small amount of that slurry"

How do I make a stepped up starter? Sorry just dont understand the lingo.

Examples: make a 2 liter starter let it ride then put it in fridge to settle, decant spent wort( technically beer at this point) add another 2 l fresh wort , thats stepping up a starter

 

[Miraculix]

"What is actually better, is making a stepped up starter out of a small amount of that slurry"

How do I make a stepped up starter? Sorry just dont understand the lingo.

It is just a term to describe that you start from a relatively small amount of yeast and build that up with some wort, decant the starter beer, add new wort, decant the beer, add new wort..... and so on, up until you have a sufficient amount of yeast.

 

[Ragman]

ahh so stepping up is like making a starter from a starter, correct?

 

[Miraculix]

ahh so stepping up is like making a starter from a starter, correct?

exactly.

 

[MHBT]

ahh so stepping up is like making a starter from a starter, correct?

Yup its like you make the initial starter the yeast grow then you remove the liquid by decanting add fresh wort and they grow again

 

[MHBT]

Have you ever tried SNS( shaken not stirred) starter method? I have settled on that method i like the ease, healthy yeast and less thought, not focusing on cell count rather yeast health

Make a 1 liter batch of starter wort, cool it add it to sanitized gallon container ( must be 4:1 size container) shake it like a madman until its like foam on a cappuccino, add yeast pitch 18-24 hours later into your batch

 

[Ragman]

So you just shake the wort starter after its cooled and before adding the yeast packet? Then just let it sit for 24 hrs? No stir plate?

 

[MHBT]

So you just shake the wort starter after its cooled and before adding the yeast packet? Then just let it sit for 24 hrs? No stir plate?

Yup but aggressively so it turns into foam, its a bit different then standard intermittent shaking and it’s important to have a vessel that is 4 times bigger then the wort volume 1 liter of wort need 1 gallon container

 

[DBhomebrew]

I linked above to Sacc's blog about yeast lag times and nuclear weapons. Here's their blog post laying out their thinking with SNS.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/shaken-not-stirred-stir-plate-myth-buster

 

[DBhomebrew]

FWIW, I used to harvest slurry from spent primary, store it in the fridge, and pitch direct. Mostly effective, but lag times in the range of 24-36 hrs. Now I use SNS and overbuild for storage. Lag times in the range of 4-8 hrs.

I make 750ml of fresh 1.040 starter. 500ml in a 1/2G jar, 250ml in a pint jar. The 500ml gets pitched into a fresh 4G batch of beer as close to high krausen as possible (12-24hrs). The 250ml gets fermented all the way out and then stored in the fridge for next time.

 

[Ragman]

I linked above to Sacc's blog about yeast lag times and nuclear weapons. Here's their blog post laying out their thinking with SNS.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/shaken-not-stirred-stir-plate-myth-buster

Good read - thank you I may have to try this SNS method.

 

[MHBT]

i use 1 gallon plastic water jug and throw it out once im done pitching plus it has a handle its light, unbreakable and easy to shake violently, i prefer the water jugs with the screw cap, no foil just loosen the cap to allow c02 to escape

 

[Ragman]

FWIW, I used to harvest slurry from spent primary, store it in the fridge, and pitch direct. Mostly effective, but lag times in the range of 24-36 hrs. Now I use SNS and overbuild for storage. Lag times in the range of 4-8 hrs.

I make 750ml of fresh 1.040 starter. 500ml in a 1/2G jar, 250ml in a pint jar. The 500ml gets pitched into a fresh 4G batch of beer as close to high krausen as possible (12-24hrs). The 250ml gets fermented all the way out and then stored in the fridge for next time.

So if Im reading this right, you pitch small starter into primary with cooled wort then when your wort reaches high krausen, you pitch the larger starter?

 

[DBhomebrew]

So if Im reading this right, you pitch small starter into primary with cooled wort then when your wort reaches high krausen, you pitch the larger starter?

Pitch the full-size starter as soon as I can into a primary fermenter full of chilled wort as close to the starter's high krausen as possible.

The small starter doesn't get pitched. It ferments all the way and then gets stored in the fridge for the next batch.

When the time for the next batch comes around, the spent small starter comes out of the fridge, decanted, and pitched into a fresh pair of starters. One for the new beer, one for the fridge.

 

[Miraculix]

That's too much of starter beer for my liking that goes into the batch with the sns starter. I'd probably still let it settle out and decant it although I understand his arguing regarding the depletion of reserves within the cell.

 

[DBhomebrew]

That's too much of starter beer for my liking that goes into the batch with the sns starter. I'd probably still let it settle out and decant it although I understand his arguing regarding the depletion of reserves within the cell.

It's ~3.2% of the batch by volume.

I'm not familiar with the smell/taste of spent stir-plate starter. According to Sacc, it's pretty foul. I've tasted spent SNS starter. Tastes like fresh beer minus the hops.

 

[balrog]

Stir plate starter, depending on timing, Life, poltergeists, random acts of stupidity, etc, can get pretty oxidized.

 

[MHBT]

That's too much of starter beer for my liking that goes into the batch with the sns starter. I'd probably still let it settle out and decant it although I understand his arguing regarding the depletion of reserves within the cell.

I understand that, but yeast love oxidized wort, i look at it as giving them a side dish to go along with their main coarse, not a stich of oxidized character comes thru they tear it up

 

[madscientist451]

So you just shake the wort starter after its cooled and before adding the yeast packet? Then just let it sit for 24 hrs? No stir plate?

DWRAHAHB
I have a stir plate and never use it. I mix up a quart of water/DME to about 1.030, dump it in a 1/2 gallon jug and chuck the yeast in. I use an airlock, and swirl the jug whenever I remember to. Basically I just leave it on the kitchen counter and it gets swirled up 3-4 times a day. I don't have a clue how many billion cells I have, but I always try to pitch a healthy, active and what appears to be a large quantity of yeast. For low gravity beers, I sometimes take the jar of yeast I've saved and out of the 'fridge and use about 1/2 of it without any starter if its fresh, but for higher gravity beers or older yeast I always make a simple starter at least 24 hrs before I need it. If I'm brewing a lager, I make a slightly bigger starter.
Honestly, you'd probably be fine pitching a fresh pack of Omega yeast into a 4.5 gallon batch, but its really not a big deal to make a starter.

 

[Miraculix]

I understand that, but yeast love oxidized wort, i look at it as giving them a side dish to go along with their main coarse, not a stich of oxidized character comes thru they tear it up

I actually bottled a slightly hopped starter beer once..... beer was surprisingly good

 

[bwible]

Liquid yeasts like everything else are getting more expensive. What are they getting to be, $10 a pack now plus shipping and an ice pack if you have it shipped? Totally understandable not wanting to buy 2 packs and spend $20 or more just on yeast, especially for just a 5 gallon batch. Might as well just go out and buy beer at that point for the same cost of ingredients and not bother with the work of brewing.

Even if you make a starter, that is still not free. You have to use some dme or buy the canned wort or make up some wort from grain.

I guess its preferrable to make a starter than buy 2 packs.

This is the reason I always try to re-use yeast and make multiple batches from the same yeast. Especially as I am only doing 3 gallon batches. Start with a weaker beer and work toward strong. As others have said, I just brew and pitch one beer on top of the yeast cake from the last beer after I rack it off.

 

[MHBT]

Liquid yeasts like everything else are getting more expensive. What are they getting to be, $10 a pack now plus shipping and an ice pack if you have it shipped? Totally understandable not wanting to buy 2 packs and spend $20 or more just on yeast, especially for just a 5 gallon batch. Might as well just go out and buy beer at that point for the same cost of ingredients and not bother with the work of brewing.

Even if you make a starter, that is still not free. You have to use some dme or buy the canned wort or make up some wort from grain.

I guess its preferrable to make a starter than buy 2 packs.

This is the reason I always try to re-use yeast and make multiple batches from the same yeast. Especially as I am only doing 3 gallon batches. Start with a weaker beer and work toward strong. As others have said, I just brew and pitch one beer on top of the yeast cake from the last beer after I rack it off.

Prices are getting outta control, I ordered a floating tube, dme, a hop bag,ingredients for a 3 gallon imperial stout im brewing for Christmas ran me 80 bucks I might be forced to quit brewing if this keeps going, getting scary

 

[madscientist451]

Prices are getting outta control, I ordered a floating tube, dme, a hop bag,ingredients for a 3 gallon imperial stout im brewing for Christmas ran me 80 bucks I might be forced to quit brewing if this keeps going, getting scary

Even with inflation, you can still find decent deals on grain if you look around. Some commercial beers are still relatively cheap, but the stuff I usually brew is pretty pricey if I bought a similar beer at the store, so I'll keep on brewing for the foreseeable future. Actually, I'm not into homebrewing for the cost savings anyway, but I'm still price conscious when buying ingredients.

 

[bwible]

Even with inflation, you can still find decent deals on grain if you look around. Some commercial beers are still relatively cheap, but the stuff I usually brew is pretty pricey if I bought a similar beer at the store, so I'll keep on brewing for the foreseeable future. Actually, I'm not into homebrewing for the cost savings anyway, but I'm still price conscious when buying ingredients.

I’m not really into it for cost savings either but if it starts getting to where it costs $35 to brew 30 bottles of ipa and I can buy a case for say $30 then its worth it to buy the beer and not spend the time and do the work yourself. I try to brew stuff I can’t buy easily also. Like British Bitters.

 

[madscientist451]

I try to brew stuff I can’t buy easily also. Like British Bitters.

Yeah, things like wheat wine, dark milds and oat malt stouts are hard to find in the stores around here....

 

[MHBT]

Yeah, things like wheat wine, dark milds and oat malt stouts are hard to find in the stores around here....

Around here they shouldn't even be called a beer distributor, should be called IPA shop, its outta control

me: hey im looking for a nice german pils maybe a rothaus, ayinger
clerk: we have this one its mega dry hopped with mosaic and oak aged in whiskey barrels with uncleaned kopi luwak beans, its 9,000 dollars a 4 pack
im exaggerating but...