Can someone walk me through a CIP process?

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Sorry to ask the dumb questions, but I've been googling for days, and read the sticky, and I'm still not clear.

We have some of the unopened drums from Bubba's Barrels. They are 18G SS and 50 gal.
We had the lids cut off and all of our ferrules and necessary welds done.

Now we're looking to get them cleaned up inside. We do have a pump, hoses, and a CIP spray ball.

Here's where I'm confused:
Everything I've read said "Hot water -> then caustic -> then hot water -> then acid -> hot water".
That makes sense ... but is that correct?

And what is "caustic" ? Every time I google it, the only results that display are commercial chemical companies. I've reached out to them and they only want to sell me gigantic quantities of it by the drum, and I don't think they understand we're just a nano looking to clean kettles.

Is "caustic" just NaOH? I bought a $2.50 bottle of that. I can just dilute it with hot water and use that... but what are the ratios? The bottle didnt come with any information.
Is it better active at certain temps? I'd imagine hotter...?

We have Citric Acid and that came with some instructions (also found some online)... I just can't find any explanations on the process with "caustic".

Can anyone clue me in here? I don't wanna mess anything up on our kettles or endanger anyone's safety.

 

[orangehero]

Yes, "caustic" generally refers to NaOH. I would try using PBW first to see if it's enough, as it's much safer. Your process of caustic, thorough rinse, acid, thorough rinse is correct.

Some guidelines for use if you insist on the caustic:

2-10% w/v NaOH, 160-190°F, 30+ minutes, depending on how soiled the equipment is. Be careful; wear eye and skin protection. If you've seen Fight Club, that's what will happen to your eyeballs.

5-10% w/v citric acid, 160-190°F, up to overnight. I heat it up to near boiling and let it work until it comes back down to room temp. Can also use 5% w/v citric acid and 5% w/v ascorbic acid.

Five-Star Chemicals sells HD Caustic #2 as well as Acid Cleaner #5 which is a blend of phosphoric and nitric acid which is more effective than citric acid.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/breweries/craft-brewers/products/

 

[Wayne1]

Here is a very, very good overview on the cleaning process.

Basic Elements of Cleaning and sanitizing

For another look
principles of cleaning and sanitizing

Get in touch with Five Star Chemicals or Birko directly. They will sell to nanos and larger.

For an alkaline cleaner (caustic) they sell in 50 lb pails. Acids can be bought in 4x1 gallon containers.

For new stainless, it helps to passivate it first. For that you should use a phosphoric/nitric acid blend. Five Star calls this Acid 5 Birko calls it UltraNighter.

For organic soil removal, use an alkaline cleaner. You can use straight caustic (NaOH) or Sodium Hydroxide but most prefer to use a built caustic that has other agents in it. A non-caustic alkaline, such as PBW or Bru-r-ez, is a lot safer than caustics but does cost more.

Acids are used for inorganic soil removal. Citric is usually not strong enough. The phosphoric/nitric blend is pretty much the standard.

There is a lot more to cover, but get in touch with those companies and they can help you out. If you have more direct question, please feel free to PM me.

 

[k-moe]

You can use straight caustic (NaOH) or Sodium Hydroxide..

NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide.

Na: sodium ; OH: hydroxide.

It's readily available at most hardware stores, just make sure to buy a product that only contains Sodium Hydroxide (such as Red Devil Lye) to make the dillution rate easier to figure. If you do a search for the MSDS of the bottle of Sodium Hydroxide that you already have it will tell you if it is straight NaOH, or if it is already diluted.

BTW caustic is not synonymous with akalines. Both acids and bases can be caustic. How caustic depends on the strength of the chemical that is being used.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Pbw is pretty inexpensive by the 50# pail and acid 5 is a great cleaner. I would do hot water, pbw, hot water, acid 5 and hot water. You can look at a paracetic acid wash to clean and sanitize your fermenter. Can pretty much use it as a no rinse sanitizer. Just read the documents and understand your chemicals. If you don't get it then call five star or birko. They are very helpful.

 

[ajdelange]

When speaking of cleanup in a brewery setting, 'caustic' means lye - one pound per 5 gal hot water. This is nasty stuff i.e. it is very caustic (able to burn or corrode organic tissue by chemical action" so don't use it w/o proper equipment and training. The reaction when it is dissolved is very exothermic so there is danger that the mix will start boiling and throw hot solution around and certainly put mist into the air. Don't breathe this.

For the acid equal parts of Nitric and Phosphoric are used. If you used a pound of lye (11.7 Eq) you'd want an equivalent amount of acid so that the net that goes down the drain (if you are permitted to dispose of it that way) is neutral. At pH 7 (neutral) concentrated phosphoric acid is 20 N and concentrated nitric 15.8 N you'd need 327 mL of each (presumably in 5 gal). If you are willing to go to pH 8 neutralized than 273 mL of each will do. There are commercial products which are blends of phosphoric and nitric acids intended for this purpose.

The nitric acid is there to oxidize the protein matrix associated with beerstone.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Thanks for the info.
We already have NaOH solution and citric acid.
Can we use these to prepare our kettles, or did we just waste the money?

Also, the NaOH I have is liquid, in a blank bottle, with no MSDS or any accompanying information.
I understand that this stuff is very dangerous, and will take the proper precautions with gloves and eyewear, but I'm not really sure how to mix it. I know with some of the powders you have to add the water (or the powder) first, and if you do it in the wrong order it's bad news...

really wish this information was more available. I don't wanna just "guess and see" in this case...

 

[Wayne1]

Whoever sold you NaOH without MSDS or dilution instructions or even a label is in violation of OSHA regulations.

Sodium Hydroxide can come in many different strengths. Without information as to what strength, it is a crapshoot and frankly dangerous to proceed to use it.

Dispose of that bottle, safely. Purchase your alkaline cleaner from a reliable vendor. Both Five Star and Birko will send you MSDS and a labeled bottel with concise directions on how to use it.

Citric acid might be able to be used to balance pH in your mash but is not going to be much use for cleaning stainless.

 

[ajdelange]

Can we use these to prepare our kettles, or did we just waste the money?

Yes. Citric acid supplies 2.81 Eq of protons per mole (192 grams) so you will need 192*11.7/2.81 = 800 grams to neutralize 1 lb of lye.

Also, the NaOH I have is liquid, in a blank bottle, with no MSDS or any accompanying information.
I understand that this stuff is very dangerous, and will take the proper precautions with gloves and eyewear, but I'm not really sure how to mix it. I know with some of the powders you have to add the water (or the powder) first, and if you do it in the wrong order it's bad news...

When adding something which reacts exothermically with water to water just remember to "do what you oughter, add acid to water". Though lye is a base the principle still applies.

I really wish this information was more available. I don't wanna just "guess and see" in this case...

The MSDS and lots of other information on how to handle lye are easily found on the web but I do have to say that I advise against its use if you are not trained in handing strong chemicals.

You will want to know the strength of the solution. This is easily determined by measuring the specific gravity of some of it. Carefully measure out 10 cc and add to 150 mL RO or DI water. Rinse the measuring cylinder and add the rinsings. Do this a couple of times and then make up to 250 cc and mix thoroughly. Measure the specific gravity. Paste

=((724.15*A1 -1599.7)*A1 + 1969.5)*A1 -1095.1

into a spreadsheet and type the measured specific gravity into cell A1. The formula calculates grams per liter of the 250 mL solution. Since that is a quarter of a litre your mix contains 0.25 times that many grams but they all came from 10 cc of the stock solution which is 1/100 of a liter so the answer needs to be multiplied by 100 to indicate the grams in a liter of the stock. IOW multiply the results from the formula by 25. For example, if you read 1.033 for the specific gravity the formula will return 30.6 meaning that your mixture contains 7.65 grams which, as that came from 10 cc means the strength of the stock solution is 765 grams/L. You will probably get numbers close to this as a 50% w/w solution is pretty standard and contains about this much NaOH/L. Once you have the grams/L you can figure out how many L you need for a given amount of NaOH. For example, if you want a pound (454 grams) you will need 454/765 = 0.59L.

 

[AK7007]

I apologize for being "that guy."

DO NOT TRAIN YOURSELF IN THE HANDLING OF DANGEROUS CHEMICALS VIA MESSAGEBOARD!

Sorry, not sorry. It needs to be said that you should seek out training in-person on the handling of concentrated NaOH.

Truth be told, strong bases aren't exactly the most dangerous things in the world. They can still **** you up if you don't know what you are doing.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Whoever sold you NaOH without MSDS or dilution instructions or even a label is in violation of OSHA regulations.

Sodium Hydroxide can come in many different strengths. Without information as to what strength, it is a crapshoot and frankly dangerous to proceed to use it.

Dispose of that bottle, safely. Purchase your alkaline cleaner from a reliable vendor. Both Five Star and Birko will send you MSDS and a labeled bottel with concise directions on how to use it.

Citric acid might be able to be used to balance pH in your mash but is not going to be much use for cleaning stainless.

Thanks Wayne.
Appreciate the help.
So after doing some research, what they sold me was some .2N (I don't know what N is, I thought it was measured in 'M' for molar, but whatever) NaOH that was part of a PH testing kit of some sort.
Clearly they had no idea what they were talking about, even when I called back to inquire about it. They did tell me where they get it from, though, so I called and Brewcraft was very helpful in sending the necessary sheets and instructions for it's use in ... calibrating PH ...

I just ordered some PBW off of Amazon and will use that for now.
I spoke with Five Star about the Acid 5 as well, and am waiting to hear back on a shipping quote.

When adding something which reacts exothermically with water to water just remember to "do what you oughter, add acid to water". Though lye is a base the principle still applies.

The MSDS and lots of other information on how to handle lye are easily found on the web but I do have to say that I advise against its use if you are not trained in handing strong chemicals.

You will want to know the strength of the solution. This is easily determined by measuring the specific gravity of some of it. Carefully measure out 10 cc and add to 150 mL RO or DI water. Rinse the measuring cylinder and add the rinsings. Do this a couple of times and then make up to 250 cc and mix thoroughly. Measure the specific gravity. Paste

=((724.15*A1 -1599.7)*A1 + 1969.5)*A1 -1095.1

into a spreadsheet and type the measured specific gravity into cell A1. The formula calculates grams per liter of the 250 mL solution. Since that is a quarter of a litre your mix contains 0.25 times that many grams but they all came from 10 cc of the stock solution which is 1/100 of a liter so the answer needs to be multiplied by 100 to indicate the grams in a liter of the stock. IOW multiply the results from the formula by 25. For example, if you read 1.033 for the specific gravity the formula will return 30.6 meaning that your mixture contains 7.65 grams which, as that came from 10 cc means the strength of the stock solution is 765 grams/L. You will probably get numbers close to this as a 50% w/w solution is pretty standard and contains about this much NaOH/L. Once you have the grams/L you can figure out how many L you need for a given amount of NaOH. For example, if you want a pound (454 grams) you will need 454/765 = 0.59L.

It's 0.2 N. I don't know what N is. but I believe they said it was 2% -- although, I'm taking that with a grain of salt, as they also told me I could use this "ph test kit" NaOH as a cleaner for my kettles.

The bottle was only $2.50 so I'm not out a bunch of money or anything. Maybe I can find some other use for it.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I apologize for being "that guy."

DO NOT TRAIN YOURSELF IN THE HANDLING OF DANGEROUS CHEMICALS VIA MESSAGEBOARD!

Sorry, not sorry. It needs to be said that you should seek out training in-person on the handling of concentrated NaOH.

Truth be told, strong bases aren't exactly the most dangerous things in the world. They can still **** you up if you don't know what you are doing.

I understand where you're coming from, and thank you for your concern. I wouldn't just jump into handling dangerous chemicals after reading a thread on the internet. I've also worked with strong acids and bases in college chemistry labs, so I'm not brand-new to handling dangerous materials. Obviously I would do more research, and the responses thus far have given numerous links and contacts to discuss the issue further.

You also have to keep in mind that not everyone has multiple breweries in their city, knows the brewers on a first name basis, and can just walk in and go "Hey bro! Stop what you're doing and teach me how to CIP!"
In addition, most larger-scale breweries will have very automated systems and $50,000 equipment. They're likely to know very little aside from "uh, I add this part X and this part Y and turn the machine on".

The internet can be a very valuable way to find information, and asking for help - even on potentially dangerous practices - is a great way to source information and start research.

 

[AK7007]

I've also worked with strong acids and bases in college chemistry labs, so I'm not brand-new to handling dangerous materials.

You also have to keep in mind that not everyone has multiple breweries in their city, knows the brewers on a first name basis, and can just walk in and go "Hey bro! Stop what you're doing and teach me how to CIP!"
In addition, most larger-scale breweries will have very automated systems and $50,000 equipment. They're likely to know very little aside from "uh, I add this part X and this part Y and turn the machine on".

I TA-ed for those classes in grad school. Maybe you learned enough there, maybe not. Nobody is saying that you have to learn about safety from another brewery. I cannot speak to the specifics, but I do know that OSHA does free small business consults, and can help you figure out what you need to know:

https://www.osha.gov/dcsp/smallbusiness/consult.html

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Thank you! Appreciate the help.
To update: Five Star was really helpful, and we're just waiting on the PBW and Acid 5 to get shipped. They were willing to walk me through a lot of the steps, dilutions, and temperatures as well.

My business partner passivized the kettles today with a good scrubbing of Bar Keeper's Friend. I'm not sure if that was necessary or not, but they look much better already. We'll do the PBW > rinse > Acid > rinse > Sanitize cycle once it gets here.

Thanks everyone for the help

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Where are you located?

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Where are you located?

WA state

 

[sandyeggoxj]

So I won't be drinking your beer anytime soon...

Good luck with the endeavor!

 

[ajdelange]

It's 0.2 N. I don't know what N is. but I believe they said it was 2% --

N means Normal. 0.2 N implies that each liter contains 0.2 Equivalents and since NaOH releases singly charged ions that is the same as 0.2 mole which weighs 8 grams. Thus the strength is 8 grams/Liter and our handy formula says a liter at ths strength weighs 1.0097*998.203 grams so the the w/w concentration is 8/1.0097*998.203 = 0.79%

...although, I'm taking that with a grain of salt,

No, this is pure base. You don't get a salt until you neutralize with acid (sorry - bad joke).

...as they also told me I could use this "ph test kit" NaOH as a cleaner for my kettles.

It's probably intended for acidity titrations. A 200 mL sample of something (wine for example) is 1/5 th of a liter so if you add x mL of this stuff that's 0.2 X mEq/0.2L = X mEq/L.Using it for kettle cleaning might be a bit of a stretch but 160 grams/gal isn't orders of magnitude less than 454 grams/gal.

I understand where you're coming from, and thank you for your concern. I wouldn't just jump into handling dangerous chemicals after reading a thread on the internet. I've also worked with strong acids and bases in college chemistry labs, so I'm not brand-new to handling dangerous materials.

You'll be fine. Don't let the chicken - little's scare you off. My wife is the sort who will walk into a lab, see a beaker in the sink, pick it up and take a drink from it. There are people like that in the world and it is because of them and the lawyers that we have all this fuss. I always put a stern caveat in any post where corrosives are mentioned because i don't know that someone with my wifes's lack of common sense (she married me, didn't she) might read it. Also, you can't believe everything you read in the MSDS. One of the big warnings with lye is that it is anesthetic on the corneas so you don't know you've gotten it in your eye. That's BS. Hurts like hell!

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Does anyone have a source for Acid 5?
We were able to find PBW no problem, but I only found one online retailer selling the Acid 5 and they charge $25 + $20 shipping.
I spoke with Five Star directly, and they would charge $40 for 4x 1 gallon jugs, but shipping was $60
They referred me to a local distributor, but the local distributor's sales rep only wants to sell us pallets or drums and doesn't seem to quite grasp the concept that we're a very very small nano operating out of pocket, and not some gigantic commercial brewery with lines of credit.

soooooo yeah.
finding that has been a pain in the ass.

The kettles are pretty clean after my buddy rinsed/scrubbed them with Bar Keeper's Friend. If I do a hot caustic rinse with PBW, will the citric acid we have be enough to do the secondary rinse?
Would anything else work, or does anyone just have a direct source that's not going to bend us over on shipping?

And can I do the PBW rinse now, and the acid rinse later? Is it imperative that they're back-to-back, or can it wait?
(sorry for the weird questions, I just don't wanna ruin our kettles and I've never done this before)

 

[ajdelange]

One of the oldest traditions in brewing is that brewers help each other out. Is there a larger operation (e.g. brewpub) in the area that might sell you some of its Acid 5?

You can, of course, do the acid rinse later or even skip it altogether. If you do this for a protracted period, however, you may find beer stone deposits and once you find them they are really hard to get off. Another concern with skipping the acid is that you will be putting unneutralized alkali into the sewer system. I don't have any idea what the requirements for an operation like yours might be in this regard but most municipalities seem to be pretty fussy about this sort of thing.

 

[Wayne1]

You are not getting bent over on shipping. Sending 50 lbs of hazardous material over 1000 miles through UPS costs more than shipping books.

Look for a local distributor.

Where are you buying your grain and other brewing supplies from?

The Country Malt Group is a nationwide distributor of brewing supplies. They have a warehouse in Vancouver, Washington. They carry Five Star chemicals and lots of different grains, yeast etc. Contact them to set up an account to purchase directly. They will charge more, as a middleman, but shipping should be less.

To minimize shipping costs, it is best to combine ingredients to get as close to 2,000 lbs for a mixed pallet to be sent to you. Of course if you do not have a loading dock or fork lift, you will need to pay an extra charge for a lift gate equipped truck.

I believe there are over 300 breweries in Washington State. Surely one of them is in driving distance of where you are. Perhaps you could go visit them to see if you could buy some supplies from them, if you cannot afford to pay for freight.

I will also suggest you join the Brewers Association and start posting on ProBrewer.com.

You will be able to find more answers from folks who have gone through the same problems you are having.