Can an overnight mash recover a too hot mash?

[chazam]

What's alpha and beta?

 

[IslandLizard]

Would water chemistry be effected?

Very minimally.
If you had added 1 liter of cold water or ice (or replaced it), water chemistry would have been affected by about 1/25 if you had 25 liters of mash water in your kettle.

Would I have to have some treated (campden) water frozen. Or would normal Ice have been okay?

If your water is (heavily) chlorinated, yeah, adding a pinch of "Meta" powder to the "correction water" would be best. But first of all, you need to work fast, bringing the temps down. The mash left for 10 minutes in that high range can make a noticeable difference.

Best is to nail the target temp after it's stirred and fully hydrated.
It may take a few times to hone in on your strike water temp to come out right on target. There are calculators for that, but each system is a little different, so you still need to tweak it a little. Keep notes.

Keep in mind, it's much easier to add (ice) cold water to drop the mash a few degrees than it is to raise it by the same amount. So next time, yeah, have some ice cold, Campden-treated water ready to go.

When higher temp mashing (to reduce fermentability, say in Milds), it's best to have the mash temp come down from the top slightly, while stirring, than it is to raise it. Reason is, enzymatic conversion is relatively fast, in the first 10 minutes half can be done already. It depends on how finely milled the grist is, and how fast you can fully hydrate it. The thinner the mash, the faster hydration and thus conversion.
FYI, full volume (BIAB) mashes are thin.

You may enjoy a bit higher mash efficiency by including a sparge. Even a small, (e.g., 2 gallon) dunk sparge is better than none, as high gravity wort remains trapped in the grist. Squeezing or pressing can only recover so much.

 

[bracconiere]

Anyone care to guess what the FG will be haha?

when i did my rice beers with alpha amylase, before i knew i needed to tag team it with gluco too, i usually got a FG of around 1.035.

but those had an OG of 1.060

 

[BasementArtie]

I am shook, shocked, flabbergasted, flummoxed, bamboozled. Plain old stumped.

The Wednesday morning hydrometer reading has just given me a FG of 1.013 (my hydro reads to 1.000 with distilled water to TOP of the meniscus @20C). Just checked the hydro and it's still calibrated, not cracked or broken. That's a ~83% attenuation.

Also before anyone asks I can guarantee the temperature of the mash didn't drop below 70C for 90minutes...beer/wort just seem to be more resilient to my f*ck ups than I thought.

As I said at the start this stumped me. I was expecting anything in the range of 1.020-1.030FG however I don't know what's happened.

Did the overnight mash work...are there even mechanisms for it to work?

Does BIAB mash thickness come into play, from BYO "Thicker mashes tend to retain more beta-amylase activity at high mash temperatures than do thin mashes. This is because beta-amylase is more stable when joined with its substrate than when it is not."?

Does water chemistry have anything to with it?

Let me know what you guys and gals think.

 

[hottpeper13]

Yes, yes and yes.

 

[doug293cz]

...

Does BIAB mash thickness come into play, from BYO "Thicker mashes tend to retain more beta-amylase activity at high mash temperatures than do thin mashes. This is because beta-amylase is more stable when joined with its substrate than when it is not."?

...

Except that BIAB (usually) employs a much thinner mash than a typical three vessel system.

You might be seeing "Hop Creep":

"There is evidence that hops have amylolytic enzymes in or on them that biochemically modify beer during dry-hopping, leading to degradation of long-chain, unfermentable dextrins into fermentable sugars. This increase in fermentable sugars can, in the presence of yeast, give rise to a slow secondary fermentation, which is referred to as 'hop creep.'"​

Brew on

 

[BasementArtie]

Except that BIAB (usually) employs a much thinner mash than a typical three vessel system.

You might be seeing "Hop Creep":

"There is evidence that hops have amylolytic enzymes in or on them that biochemically modify beer during dry-hopping, leading to degradation of long-chain, unfermentable dextrins into fermentable sugars. This increase in fermentable sugars can, in the presence of yeast, give rise to a slow secondary fermentation, which is referred to as 'hop creep.'"​

Brew on

So I agree mash thickness is thin compared with a three vessel system with BIAB so it's unlikely this. My thickness so this brew was 3.3L/kg which overall isn't anything too large.

How fast does hop creep act / drop FG and provide consumable/fermentatable sugars? If it's a slow process I doubt it would be this either (in isolation) as the brew has only been in contact with hop matter (~200g) for roughly 7days.
Seems a bit of a stretch that alone brought the FG down roughly 10points on the best case scenario I was expecting, or maybe I'm underestimating how huge hop creep can be and really need to factor this in next brew I make .

 

[RM-MN]

I messed up a mash temp for my newest beer (Double NEIPA) and ending up mashing at 70-72C for 90 mins.

OK, so you had the grains in the mash for 90 minutes. How much of that time was the actual conversion of starch to sugar? It takes several minutes to denature enzymes, most often mentioned is 10 minutes at 170F (about 77C) for mash out. How finely did you have your grains milled? Very finely milled grains can get you full conversion in less than 10 minutes that it might take to denature the enzymes and the rest of your 90 minutes were used to extract flavor and sugars. I often will do my BIAB mash at 156 to 158F (69 to 71C) and get a final gravity of 1.012 because my conversion is over before the enzymes are denatured.

 

[BasementArtie]

OK, so you had the grains in the mash for 90 minutes. How much of that time was the actual conversion of starch to sugar? It takes several minutes to denature enzymes, most often mentioned is 10 minutes at 170F (about 77C) for mash out. How finely did you have your grains milled? Very finely milled grains can get you full conversion in less than 10 minutes that it might take to denature the enzymes and the rest of your 90 minutes were used to extract flavor and sugars. I often will do my BIAB mash at 156 to 158F (69 to 71C) and get a final gravity of 1.012 because my conversion is over before the enzymes are denatured.

So I overcooked my strike temp and after dropping the grain in and thoroughly mixed my mash it was at 72C which probably was taken 5 mins after dough-in. Then it was a frantic 85mins that followed with the lid off stirring/mixing and constantly measuring temp in various places withing the mash where I only got it down to 70C at 90mins. This is when I called it a day. Covered it back up and left it for 10 hours. Came back was at 62C.


So my last brew was a 9% quad which I brewed at 65-63C and nailed the temperature and that only dropped to 1.009 FG (although if it was a Tripel with all lighter grain I'm thinking it would have been lower). So for messing up temp on this brew and still getting an FG of 1.013 I'm very happy although I don't understand how.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

I've been lurking on this one. I'm glad it turned out OK

 

[Miraculix]

I think it's good to remember that enzymes do not denature all at once. It is not an on/off switch. Furthermore, with extended time, only a very small amount of beta is needed to carry on the job.

 

[BasementArtie]

I think it's good to remember that enzymes do not denature all at once. It is not an on/off switch. Furthermore, with extended time, only a very small amount of beta is needed to carry on the job.

I'm thinking, I might do an overnight mash again if I mess up strike temp on the high end. Give those lone betas a chance to ravage the lands.

I might even try with my next NEIPA to replicate this and mash starting at 73C and letting it drop to 71C and then overnight. Luckily with the style if it finishes higher it's not the end of the world.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I haven't read the entire thread, but you could end up with a sour mash. I've purposely done a sour mash a couple times by leaving it for 24 hours. Your temps may have been too high for that though. I think the ideal temp for a sour mash is between 100-110F (38-43C).

 

[Miraculix]

I haven't read the entire thread, but you could end up with a sour mash. I've purposely done a sour mash a couple times by leaving it for 24 hours. Your temps may have been too high for that though. I think the ideal temp for a sour mash is between 100-110F (38-43C).

You are right, it depends on the temperature. If it cannot be maintained, then the mash will sour. Made my first kettle sure this way by accident, was quite alright actually

 

[BasementArtie]

I haven't read the entire thread, but you could end up with a sour mash. I've purposely done a sour mash a couple times by leaving it for 24 hours. Your temps may have been too high for that though. I think the ideal temp for a sour mash is between 100-110F (38-43C).

I think 62c and 10 hours may be a bit hot and short for the lactobacillus. However this was a consideration when I did this

 

[hottpeper13]

Whenever i want the OG below 1.008 I do an overnite reverse mash . Mash in at 68* and by morning it sits around 61*-63*.

 

[BasementArtie]

Just thought I'd update. Did my second hydrometer reading and it's steady at its FG of 1.013 so I'm cold crashing and then bottling tomorrow morning.

 

[BasementArtie]

All bottled. Wish me luck. Hopefully we get no brown beer!

 

[BasementArtie]

Bottles are now going into the conditioning chamber aka the Inkbird garage tub.

 

[BasementArtie]

Completely irrelevant to the overnight mash / high temp mash question but more to do with the actual beer and the NEIPA style and bottling.

Here are two pictures of the same beer. The first being the last bottle filled about half way (maybe just over actually between 1/2 - 2/3) the other second photo filled to the brim (literally too much, note to self it nearly pushed out of the rubber gasket of the flip top so I cooled them down in the conditioning tub).

One is brown from what I can assume is the oxygen mixing with the proteins and hop oils and the other fresh and bright as hell. Obviously everyone by now know oxygen is the main enemy of the NEIPA but I thought another visual representation after 6 days can't be a bad thing.

 

[Stormcrow]

Completely irrelevant to the overnight mash / high temp mash question but more to do with the actual beer and the NEIPA style and bottling.

Here are two pictures of the same beer. The first being the last bottle filled about half way (maybe just over actually between 1/2 - 2/3) the other second photo filled to the brim (literally too much, note to self it nearly pushed out of the rubber gasket of the flip top so I cooled them down in the conditioning tub).

One is brown from what I can assume is the oxygen mixing with the proteins and hop oils and the other fresh and bright as hell. Obviously everyone by now know oxygen is the main enemy of the NEIPA but I thought another visual representation after 6 days can't be a bad thing.

A picture really is worth a thousand words.

 

[BasementArtie]

Non-scientific just observational. Compare the carbonation test bottle colour after 2 weeks again head space was much more than the filled high bottles. Tasted great still though

And here is another filled high bottle (I think it's darkened slightly since bottling but the smell still popped ). Didn't taste very different but smell was lost a bit in the test PET bottle when compared to this filled high one.

Obviously it's oxygen/oxidation causing the problem on the under filled bottles. However I've got a weird feeling that it's not the traditional effects of oxidation we're seeing. With this drastic colour change I would expect to taste the difference however that doesn't seem to happen.