Calcium Sulphate v Calcium Chloride Ratio

[Cloud Surfer]

I’m finding my way around all grain, and I’m fairly aware what each of these contribute to the finished beer.

Now, as far as I’m aware these exist in relation to each other and are not generally used 100% in any beer. For example I did a IIPA and used a 1:4 Chloride to Sulphate ratio. Is there a guide to using these together in various beer styles? I’m about to do a Barley Wine and am not sure what ratio to use. Probably the opposite of the IIPA. I do a lot of Belgians, RIS, wheat beers etc and am just looking for guidance for the future.

 

[VikeMan]

Now, as far as I’m aware these exist in relation to each other and are not generally used 100% in any beer.

Generally is a true statement, but most rules have exceptions. For example, I would have no problems doing a Czech Pilsner with no Sulfate whatsoever.

Is there a guide to using these together in various beer styles?

There's no guide (by style) that I'm aware of. And really, the ratio can be useful, but more important are the actual amounts. For example, 25 ppm Cl and 100 ppm SO4 has the same (1:4) ratio as 100 ppm Cl and 400 ppm SO4. These would be very different beers, IMO. I usually stay away from cooking analogies, but I think it's appropriate here. Consider a spaghetti sauce where you are trying to balance sweet and acidic. Once you have it perfect, you wouldn't want to double (or halve) the amounts of (say) sugar and tomatoes, while leaving everything else the same.

I’m about to do a Barley Wine and am not sure what ratio to use.

For a barleywine, I'd recommend something fairly well balanced. Maybe 100-150 ppm of each. Personally, I would probably lean toward Cl for an english barleywine and toward SO4 for an american.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I’m about to do a Barley Wine and am not sure what ratio to use.

This is a case where some experience and preference comes into play. Some American Barleywines are very similar to a Triple IPA, where some English Barleywines might lean more toward a malty Scotch Ale.

If you are using software, most of them have some generic profiles like "Dark Malty", or "Golden Hoppy/Dry". They are not perfect, but are not a bad starting place. Chloride and Sulfate levels are not a magic switch, but Chloride will provide a bit of a fullness that brings out malty character, where Sulfate will provide a bit of crispness that lets hop bitterness shine through.

Back when I did some trial batches by doctoring my Pale Ale, once the combined Sulfate + Chloride got to around 300 ppm the beers started to get a bit of a "minerally" character.

I just brewed my first Barleywine (an American Style) and I went with 77 ppm Sulfate and 97 ppm Chloride. My girlfriend wanted a beer like Bigfoot but less bitter and less hoppy. It is still fermenting, so no idea if I hit the target.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I still have a lot to learn about water. A local pro/home brewer said I need to add 100ppm Calcium to our water in any combination of Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride depending on the style I’m making.

I really enjoy English Barley Wines and that’s the style I’m aiming for. So very much malt forward, and less hoppy. Which leans toward more Calcium Chloride than Sulphate. Maybe given what’s been posted, I aim for 60:40. But to be honest I don’t know how much the beer will change if I went 80:20.

 

[VikeMan]

I still have a lot to learn about water. A local pro/home brewer said I need to add 100ppm Calcium to our water in any combination of Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride depending on the style I’m making.

Did he say why? I'd say 95+% of my batches do not get 100 ppm or more calcium. I can't think of any reason they would "need" to. Maybe he's using yeast strains that are not very flocculant, or just wants everything to flocculate faster. Or maybe he has source water with very high alkalinity and he's trying to manage mash pH just with calcium. But as a general rule? No.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I don’t know why he advised to add 100 ppm Calcium, other than I got the impression it was tailored to our water.

I’m curious you say 95+% of your batches don’t get 100 ppm or more calcium. But in your first post you advised adding 100-150 ppm of both Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride. I’m confused now.

 

[VikeMan]

I don’t know why he advised to add 100 ppm Calcium, other than I got the impression it was tailored to our water.

That sounds like it's probably a mash pH management thing. A couple things to know though... mash pH can also be reduced through direct addition of acids (like lactic or phosphoric), and some grists will need a lot less calcium (or acid) than others to get the pH in range. "100 ppm calcium" wouldn't be a cure all for mash pH for all batches, even with the same starting water.

I’m curious you say 95+% of your batches don’t get 100 ppm or more calcium. But in your first post you advised adding 100-150 ppm of both Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride. I’m confused now.

That would (could) be in the 5-%. IMO, barleywine is a style that's well served by relatively high levels of chloride and sulfate. Calcium just comes along for the ride. But keep in mind that when we say, for example, 100 ppm of Chloride, that means 100 ppm of the Chloride ion itself, not 100 ppm of Calcium Chloride. Chloride can also come from NaCl (non-iodized table salt) without increasing Calcium. And Sulfate can also come from MgSO4 (Epsom salts) without increasing calcium (though I'm not really a fan of added Magnesium in beer).

Are you using one of the Mash pH/Water calculators? If not, they make all of this a lot easier. MpH is excellent and free. Or, for a free overall brewing solution, the MpH model is also integrated into BrewCipher. <- Also at this site is an intro to brewing water treatment which you may find useful.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I don’t know why he advised to add 100 ppm Calcium, other than I got the impression it was tailored to our water.

I’m curious you say 95+% of your batches don’t get 100 ppm or more calcium. But in your first post you advised adding 100-150 ppm of both Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride. I’m confused now.

Whereabouts are you?
Ive brewed all grain since 2004. A local brewer who has experience brewing commercially told me our local water is quite soft, and that I could do equal parts cal chl and cal sulphate for balanced beers, and then go more chloride for malty, and more sulphate for drier, more bitter beers. It’s worked well for me for over a decade.

Though I’ve never done all sulphate. For a dry bitter beer like saison ( mine are 1.040, 40 IBU with around 1.005 FG ), I’ll go a little cal chl and mostly sulphate

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

On a couple of UK brewing forums they naturally seem to accept around 100 - 150 mg/L (ppm) Ca++ as the ideal range, and they generally either laugh or scoff at us in the USA (or are at least bewildered at us) for brewing with as little as 40 - 60 mg/L Ca++.

They also laugh, scoff, or show bewilderment at the idea of using Phosphoric Acid. And they show pictures of Phosphoric Acid making an ugly white precipitate mess of their water when used to acidify it to the typical 5.4-5.6 pH range as their justification for never using it (along with comments that other acids do not exhibit this issue).

 

[Cloud Surfer]

That sounds like it's probably a mash pH management thing. A couple things to know though... mash pH can also be reduced through direct addition of acids (like lactic or phosphoric), and some grists will need a lot less calcium (or acid) than others to get the pH in range. "100 ppm calcium" wouldn't be a cure all for mash pH for all batches, even with the same starting water.



That would (could) be in the 5-%. IMO, barleywine is a style that's well served by relatively high levels of chloride and sulfate. Calcium just comes along for the ride. But keep in mind that when we say, for example, 100 ppm of Chloride, that means 100 ppm of the Chloride ion itself, not 100 ppm of Calcium Chloride. Chloride can also come from NaCl (non-iodized table salt) without increasing Calcium. And Sulfate can also come from MgSO4 (Epsom salts) without increasing calcium (though I'm not really a fan of added Magnesium in beer).

Are you using one of the Mash pH/Water calculators? If not, they make all of this a lot easier. MpH is excellent and free. Or, for a free overall brewing solution, the MpH model is also integrated into BrewCipher. <- Also at this site is an intro to brewing water treatment which you may find useful.

Thanks, that makes sense then. I have lactic acid I’ve used before to adjust the mash pH. I don’t have a pH calculator yet, but I know I need to get one up and running.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

Whereabouts are you?
Ive brewed all grain since 2004. A local brewer who has experience brewing commercially told me our local water is quite soft, and that I could do equal parts cal chl and cal sulphate for balanced beers, and then go more chloride for malty, and more sulphate for drier, more bitter beers. It’s worked well for me for over a decade.

Though I’ve never done all sulphate. For a dry bitter beer like saison ( mine are 1.040, 40 IBU with around 1.005 FG ), I’ll go a little cal chl and mostly sulphate

I’m in Newcastle. Your approach is pretty much what I was thinking. To adjust the ratios either side of neutral to suit the style.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

Given all the good advice, I’ll go ahead and use 120ppm Chloride and 80ppm Sulphate. I think that looks reasonable for an English Barley Wine.

 

[mabrungard]

It’s so sad to hear people saying that malty beers need high chloride and little sulfate, but it can easily be overdone. In a style like barleywine, it’s probably already got a lot of malt and fullness. It can get overly full and cloying if the water has high chloride and little or no sulfate.

Sulfate is an important ingredient for balancing fullness and dryness. They used to make big, malty beers in Burton and they were prized. They were also part of the genesis of Russian Imperial Stouts. The salient thing is that they were obviously brewing with a lot of sulfate. Having a decent amount of sulfate is not always a detriment in big malty beers

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I’m in Newcastle. Your approach is pretty much what I was thinking. To adjust the ratios either side of neutral to suit the style.

I’m in Wollongong mate. It’s worked for me for many years. I don’t think about it too much, with our soft water, I don’t really need to. Water and water treatment can be a rabbit hole.

 

[beerisyummy]

I've been all-grain for about 30 batches, and just in the last five or so have gone down the rabbit hole of water treatment. I've been using the calculators on brewersfriend.com and they have several water profiles that can be used as targets, "balanced," "Burton-on-Trent," etc. I plug in the water analysis from my utility co., my grain bill, and add various salts etc. to the profile. It tracks the ion level and pH as I go and lets me know if I've pushed the envelope too far in any direction. It's pretty handy for a relatively non-scientific guy like me. I don't have much of a baseline of experience yet, but I don't think I've ruined any beer.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I've been all grain brewing since 2014 and made water adjustments starting with my first batch (with the help of a mentor back then).

I don't really understand the chemistry (took chem in college, but that was almost 40 years ago). As noted above, ratio matters, but so does actual levels (50/100 is the same ratio as 200/400, but radically different beers).

Also, Martin made a really good point. Chloride doesn't make a beer malty, the ingredients do....it can just accentuate it and a recipe that's already malty can get cloying if you just blindly think "malty style, add a ton of chloride and very little sulfate).

The other thing I'm finding out is that pH has a pretty significant effect on the flavor. People focus on mash pH, but the pH of the final product makes a big difference too. It's not as simple as "mash pH in the ideal range" and you're done. In general, lower pH seems to make hops "pop" more, higher pH seems smoother and more malty to my taste. I've been tweaking pH for ideal mash for most of my all grain brewing, but I'm just now starting to play with how it impacts flavor.

My next NEIPA is gonna push the pH a little lower than I usually do to see if that give me the brightness I want while still yielding the full mouthfeel of a 150ppm chloride/75ppm sulfate blend that I've been using.