Burner Question: Is there a such thing as overkill?

[Biscuits]

Just thinking outloud so please pardon me for maybe not have thought this all the way through...

A fellow homebrewer that I recently became buds with has an "issue" where all of his beers, regardless of style or mash temp, have a sort of sweetness to them. This is probably not the most accurate description and with taste being so subjective, it probably isn't enough to really get the idea across, but we both taste it and agree that 'sweet' is probably the most accurate definition.

Anyway, he has the Bayou Classic KAB6 burner, which is rated at 210,000 BTU's. I noticed that the bottom of his brew kettle has some scorched-carmelized-burnt-what have you-wort and I got to thinking if maybe this 'sweetness' is a result of him scorching his wort during the heating stage of the boil. He typically only does 5 gallon all grain batches with a starting boil size of @6.5 - 7 Gallons.

We have also been going deep down the rabbit hole trying to identify where an off flavor/aroma is coming from with his stouts, which may be linked to the burner issue...if it holds any water that is.

Is there a such thing as too much heat-too fast or is this a non-issue that I am over-thinking?

 

[V-Fib]

If he has a burnt residue in the kettle it is most likely caramelized sugars. You guys can try a few things like dialing down the heat, keeping the wort moving so temperature is even or doing a side by side brew with your equipment with no changes and see the difference.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Biscuits,

Not enough info to accurately trouble shoot. But if I had to guess at your buddies process, I'd say he's an extract brewer and what your are describing called extract twang. He is most likely adding all his extract to at the beginning of the boil. Google "adding extract late to the boil" plenty of info on how to fix the twang.

Now if he's all grain. I'd say either he is mashing to high and creating to many long chain sugars. Or his beer is not attenuating enough to achieve a dry finish. This could be from not pitching enough yeast or using the wrong yeast for a certain style. or a combination of both.

I used the highest BTU burner I could find for years and never had one batch scorch or over caramelize. I'm always in hurry and ran it wide open until it boiled then backed it down. What is his boil off rate? If he's losing more than 20% an hour that could be the issue. But it's not likely.

We would need to know more details of his brewing processes and equipment to give a better solution.

 

[flars]

Any scorching of the wort will cause off flavors unless you are replicating a burnt wort style.

Clean the kettle and turn down the heat. The boil does not need to spit volcanoes to be a boil.

 

[Biscuits]

Biscuits,

Not enough info to accurately trouble shoot. But if I had to guess at your buddies process, I'd say he's an extract brewer and what your are describing called extract twang. He is most likely adding all his extract to at the beginning of the boil. Google "adding extract late to the boil" plenty of info on how to fix the twang.

Now if he's all grain. I'd say either he is mashing to high and creating to many long chain sugars. Or his beer is not attenuating enough to achieve a dry finish. This could be from not pitching enough yeast or using the wrong yeast for a certain style. or a combination of both.

I used the highest BTU burner I could find for years and never had one batch scorch or over caramelize. I'm always in hurry and ran it wide open until it boiled then backed it down. What is his boil off rate? If he's losing more than 20% an hour that could be the issue. But it's not likely.

We would need to know more details of his brewing processes and equipment to give a better solution.

He is an all grain brewer and we have brewed together a handful of times and we practically discuss brewing all day at work so, at this point so I am pretty in-tune with his brewing process and he is very detail oriented. I know it is not his mash technique or his yeast process.

I know it is probably never a good idea to say we have ruled everything out..but I feel like we have and now we are forced to consider things that one may no normally consider, such as burners.

To answer some of your question:
- His boil-off rate is in the typical range, I will send him this link to speak for himself, but I believe it is in the typical 1 - 1.15 gal/hr.

Any scorching of the wort will cause off flavors unless you are replicating a burnt wort style.

Clean the kettle and turn down the heat. The boil does not need to spit volcanoes to be a boil.

I wouldn't say his boil is any more vigorous than a normal boil, I will say that he gets up to temp/boil much faster than my cheaper burner. I am just wondering if the time before the boil starts rolling if the heat from his burner might be carmelizing/scorching his wort while it is sitting stagnant.

 

[beermanpete]

I have a large ring style burner (BTU rating unknown) and feel it is a bit too aggressive as well. I had not noticed a flavor issue but the wort seemed to darken more than I wanted during the boil. Judging the flame setting visually seems difficult for me so I installed a rotameter style flow gauge in the gas line. I am surprised at how much lower I can run the flame and still maintain an adequate boil. With the boil set low enough the wort does not darken much.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Scorched wort will put some off flavors in to the beer. I don't think I'd call them sweet though. Most burnt flavors would be considered bitter from a culinary standpoint.

You may want to look at a few other causes. When I first started brewing I rushed the process and didn't let my yeast finish up. So that produced a less attenuated beer with a little sweetness left behind.

Your bittering hop addition may need a little bit of a tweek.

You may want to calibrate your mash thermometer.

You can add 5-10% dextrose to dry out the beer. You can reduce any Carmel malts a bit.

If it's every batch there is a common element causing the flavor so I'd try to eliminate them step by step. You can easily turn down the burner to a gentle boil and eliminate that as a cause.

 

[kh54s10]

Sweet to me sounds more of a recipe problem. I have an SP10 burner, it doesn't act well at low gas, so my boil off rate is close to 2 gallons per hour. I get some coating on the bottom of the pot but it doesn't seem burnt.

Sweet is not something that comes to mind for an aggressive boil. Mine don't have that and my boil is probably a bit on the aggressive side. Try turning down the flame. Look at the recipes, and maybe use less Caramel/Crystal malts or other specialty malts that give a sweet flavor.

 

[Biscuits]

Scorched wort will put some off flavors in to the beer. I don't think I'd call them sweet though. Most burnt flavors would be considered bitter from a culinary standpoint.

You may want to look at a few other causes. When I first started brewing I rushed the process and didn't let my yeast finish up. So that produced a less attenuated beer with a little sweetness left behind.

Your bittering hop addition may need a little bit of a tweek.

You may want to calibrate your mash thermometer.

You can add 5-10% dextrose to dry out the beer. You can reduce any Carmel malts a bit.

If it's every batch there is a common element causing the flavor so I'd try to eliminate them step by step. You can easily turn down the burner to a gentle boil and eliminate that as a cause.

I don't think it is a recipe or yeast issue, like I said, he is an astute brewer, but like you said, we just have to try turning the burner down and see if it changes. We are actually planning to brew the same recipe and see if it is an issue with his system..I think that might be a good place to start.

Sweet to me sounds more of a recipe problem. I have an SP10 burner, it doesn't act well at low gas, so my boil off rate is close to 2 gallons per hour. I get some coating on the bottom of the pot but it doesn't seem burnt.

Sweet is not something that comes to mind for an aggressive boil. Mine don't have that and my boil is probably a bit on the aggressive side. Try turning down the flame. Look at the recipes, and maybe use less Caramel/Crystal malts or other specialty malts that give a sweet flavor.

I would normally agree with you, but this is in all of his beers regardless of style or use of crystal malts...which is why we withered it down to a system based problem.

 

[kh54s10]

Well maybe it is scorched malt. Though sweetness is not what I would think you would get. Maybe it is a description problem of the flavor. It certainly won't hurt to try boiling less vigorously. If it doesn't help you have eliminated a variable. If it does you have found the problem.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Now, we really need more details!

Still sounds like under attenuation to me, but I'll take your word that he's pitching enough health yeast and giving the beer enough time to finish and clean up. I've never heard of scorched wort described as sweet. Beers I've tasted that were scorched tasted burnt almost ashtray like flavors. I can't see it being that. Over caramelizing would make excessive melanoidians which would have an intense malt flavor and would taste like burnt toast not sweet.

What does the sweetness taste like? Carmel sweet? Jolly Rancher sweet? Malt sweet?

DCPCooks said it. I'd look at hops next. How is he calculating IBUs. Are the hops old? How were they stored? Does he use a hop spider or screen? The beer will taste sweet if he built the recipe for 50 IBUs and is only getting 40 IBUs.

Knowing the recipe and mash procedures would help us troubleshoot.

 

[Biscuits]

Now, we really need more details!

Still sounds like under attenuation to me, but I'll take your word that he's pitching enough health yeast and giving the beer enough time to finish and clean up. I've never heard of scorched wort described as sweet. Beers I've tasted that were scorched tasted burnt almost ashtray like flavors. I can't see it being that. Over caramelizing would make excessive melanoidians which would have an intense malt flavor and would taste like burnt toast not sweet.

What does the sweetness taste like? Carmel sweet? Jolly Rancher sweet? Malt sweet?

DCPCooks said it. I'd look at hops next. How is he calculating IBUs. Are the hops old? How were they stored? Does he use a hop spider or screen? The beer will taste sweet if he built the recipe for 50 IBUs and is only getting 40 IBUs.

Knowing the recipe and mash procedures would help us troubleshoot.

Most of the recipes are clones or tried and true recipes. He uses Beersmith and has his system parameters nailed down pretty tight. His hops, if not from a unopened - recently purchased bag are from vacuum sealed bags kept in a freezer.

I haven't had a jolly rancher in a very long time, but from what I can remember about them, I think it might be similar to that taste...I will have to have him log in and post as he drinks it much more than I do.

If this issue is also to blame for his stouts, that is more of a medicinal/plastic kind of taste. Keep in mind none of these are high gravity beers, I believe most are 1.065 and under...so even without a starter, he may be slightly under-pitching but I can't see that as a reason for throwing these flavors...especially considering he usually over-attenuates slightly.

I know it is difficult to trust that we have ben thorough enough to be sure that this isn't related to other equipment/process/or recipe...and in all honesty it is possible we missed something else along the way, and I am starting to get the feeling that may be the case as none of the responses I have seen in this thread have hinted that wort carmelization would produce a sweet character to the beer...and again, that may be a poor description.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I haven't had a jolly rancher in a very long time, but from what I can remember about them, I think it might be similar to that taste...I will have to have him log in and post as he drinks it much more than I do.

If this issue is also to blame for his stouts, that is more of a medicinal/plastic kind of taste. Keep in mind none of these are high gravity beers, I believe most are 1.065 and under...so even without a starter, he may be slightly under-pitching but I can't see that as a reason for throwing these flavors...especially considering he usually over-attenuates slightly.

Ah..now we are getting somewhere! Sounds like acetaldeyhde ie. jolly rancher flavor and/or band-aid like flavor (medicinal/plastic).

It is produced by yeast during fermentation as a precursor to ethanol. Can also be caused by oxidation, where too much O2 exists in packaged beer, it can change ethanols back to acetaldehyde.

Right back to yeast again. Large enough pitch, plenty of O2, and let it finish and clean up. Keeping young beer in contact with a healthy population of yeast encourages re-absorption of acetaldehyde and can go a long way toward reducing this unwanted compound. So stay patient, and wait a few days after reaching terminal gravity before you rack that beer to secondary.

If he's solid on the yeast front than it has to be oxygenation.

Naturally carbonated or forced? Is the beer in kegs or bottles? If forced carbonated and in bottles, I'd have him look at his bottling process. Counter-pressure filler? Beer gun? If in kegs only, I'd have him look at his kegging process.

 

[truebe]

What's his brew pot like? is it a reasonable thickness?

When I first attempted all grain, I tried to use a $20 clam steamer as my brew pot. It literally burnt some of the wort into a thick layer of ash. I would have described that off flavor as burnt.

 

[Biscuits]

What's his brew pot like? is it a reasonable thickness?

When I first attempted all grain, I tried to use a $20 clam steamer as my brew pot. It literally burnt some of the wort into a thick layer of ash. I would have described that off flavor as burnt.

I'd say so, he uses a thicker stainless kettle. I dunno, I am leaning back to it being a yeast issue now...we are going to brew together this week and do the same exact recipe and compare the results.