Bull Shoots VS Normal Bines

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

Anyone have a good way of IDing a Bull shoot as opposed to a good, normal bine with training potential, aside from cutting one open to check for hollowness? A good side by side photo comparison would be awesome.

 

[Hopfarmer]

The first growth on second year plants and older should all be cut back below the ground

 

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

The first growth on second year plants and older should all be cut back below the ground

So you're saying if I've got 2 2nd year vines that each have 6-8, 3~4", semi-purple, asparagus looking bines coming up the second week of April, they should all get clipped? They've all sort of popped up together...

 

[masterbrewer88]

I would love to know this answer as well. I have a second year plant as well and already have asparagus looking bines growing.

 

[cfonnes]

Below the ground? I already clipped them to the ground.

 

[day_trippr]

So you're saying if I've got 2 2nd year vines that each have 6-8, 3~4", semi-purple, asparagus looking bines coming up the second week of April, they should all get clipped? They've all sort of popped up together...

Yup. Chop 'em all down.

Last year my 3 year old crowns sprouted tens of shoots each - looked more like a bad hair cut gone crazy. Chopped 'em all down, then picked the best looking 5 or 6 shoots from the next batch. Then had to keep cutting back new shoots for a few weeks 'til the plants got the message and put their energy into the Chosen Bines...

Cheers!

 

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

Yup. Chop 'em all down.

Last year my 3 year old crowns sprouted tens of shoots each - looked more like a bad hair cut gone crazy. Chopped 'em all down, then picked the best looking 5 or 6 shoots from the next batch. Then had to keep cutting back new shoots for a few weeks 'til the plants got the message and put their energy into the Chosen Bines...

Cheers!

So the best looking ones that your saving, what do they look like? Not big and fat like the bulls? Do you just know the first group to sprout will always be hollow and less productive?

Anyone else ever just grow whatever... I.E. letting the bull shoots climb and make cones...

 

[PJM]

What are bull sprouts? Never heard of that before.

 

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

What are bull sprouts? Never heard of that before.

Apparently the first large vigorous sprouts to come out of the ground in spring are called 'bull shoots' it's a fairly generic term that gets used throughout horticulture. Googling the term, i discovered peach trees as well as other crops produce a 'bull shoot' of sorts as well. As far as hops are concerned, apparently the bull shoots have a hollow stem that breaks extremely easily and they have long inter nodal spaces and therefore fewer axillary nodes and ultimately produce much fewer cones, if they even make it to that stage without breaking first. Apparently the hollow stems make them super breakable.

I've read about everything I can find on the internet and the book 'The Home Brewer's Garden'. However my hops were far from vigorous last year and I had two plants spontaneously die for no reason. This year the survivors are looking great so far, It kills me to think I need to level them.

 

[day_trippr]

So the best looking ones that your saving, what do they look like? Not big and fat like the bulls? Do you just know the first group to sprout will always be hollow and less productive?[...]

Chopping back the first round of shoots was something I read (here, iirc) a few years back. The second year I definitely had multiple bulls between my 15 crowns - they were actually easy to identify - and again last year. As the yield has been so good I've stuck to that technique.

Don't be afraid. A healthy crown isn't going to get pissed about getting whacked and refuse to grow

Cheers!

 

[NathPowe]

Here's a twist on this question - I just planted one of those crowns from Great Lakes Hops, and I've got some pretty good bines going after a few weeks. So this plant is first-year for me, but since it's a crown is it technically a second year plant? I've got one bine in particular that is about twice as long as the rest. Is this a 'bull' that should be cut?

Thanks for your help and patience - first time grower here.

Cheers.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Heh, we use the term "bull canes" in viticulture. Would terminating the apical meristem of the bull shoot be acceptable? letting them go a little and then lopping off the top to stop further growth but still have leaves around the base capable of producing photosynthate for the healthy chosen bines?

 

[B-Hoppy]

Heh, we use the term "bull canes" in viticulture. Would terminating the apical meristem of the bull shoot be acceptable? letting them go a little and then lopping off the top to stop further growth but still have leaves around the base capable of producing photosynthate for the healthy chosen bines?

Once the crown is established there's usually an excess of shoots to choose from so there's really no need to fret over losing one. If you do lop off the top of one of them, the node below will usually kick into action and put two more out.

Also, NathPowe, I'd just let everything go to help get the crown established this year. For a definitive answer you should contact GLH though. I got some crowns from them last year and just let everything go with only the Teamaker needing to be thinned.

 

[dirtyd90]

Bull shoots are much easier to identify as the crown ages. They are always the first to sprout and when you cut them they are hollow inside. I cut them at soil level after they get over a foot and continue to select what I want to keep a good month after. Then I train. It works.

 

[NathPowe]

Once the crown is established there's usually an excess of shoots to choose from so there's really no need to fret over losing one. If you do lop off the top of one of them, the node below will usually kick into action and put two more out.

Also, NathPowe, I'd just let everything go to help get the crown established this year. For a definitive answer you should contact GLH though. I got some crowns from them last year and just let everything go with only the Teamaker needing to be thinned.

Thanks for the reply. Gotta ask - what's a Teamaker?

 

[LowNotes]

Kind of a followup question:

Is there a point at which you should NOT trim the bull shoots back if they have been growing freely? I have 3 plants and am getting great 2nd year growth. So far the biggest has 10-12 bines and the longest are probably 18"-24", should I still chop everything back down to the ground, or does the window of time to trim them close after they reach a certain height?

I am leaning towards chopping them all back and putting 2" of potting soil over the cut ends, but I am nervous because they look so much better now than last year. Really, they look way betterr than I expected, so I am scared to get to fussy with them.

 

[B-Hoppy]

Thanks for the reply. Gotta ask - what's a Teamaker?

Relatively new super low-alpha hop.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2008/080103.htm

 

[NathPowe]

Also, NathPowe, I'd just let everything go to help get the crown established this year. For a definitive answer you should contact GLH though. I got some crowns from them last year and just let everything go with only the Teamaker needing to be thinned.

Just to follow up - I did contact Great Lakes Hops about this. First off, what a great company to work with. They're always so helpful. Anyway, they basically recommended the same thing (just let 'em grow) and said that I shouldn't be concerned about bull shoots on a first year crown. So I'm just gonna let it ride.

Also gotta say that, so far at least, having a hop plant is even more fun than I thought it would be. Definitely give it a shot if you're interested.

Cheers.

 

[sablesurfer]

The first growth on second year plants and older should all be cut back below the ground

How does one to this in a container garden? Any thoughts? I tried with my clippers but they got bogged up by dirt and didn't cut clean. So I just snipped everything above ground.

Now...one reason I think for the below ground is that some of my first shoots are just going to sprout again. Not sure if they will stay the hollow kind since they are sprouting off a bull shoot.