Building Towards a Pilsner Taste - Yeast suggestions

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pawleysplayr

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First off...let me say I understand that in order to make a "true" lager you must use lager yeast etc etc.

What I would like to do is make a beer that approaches the general flavor profile of the Pilsner Urquel type beers....as close as possible... with the equipment, ingredients, and environment boundaries I have to work within.
I would appreciate any input you might have re yeast selection.
Of course if you see any easy improvements to the recipe or process please let me know

This first beer (recipe below) turned out very good but sweet. I know the Kolsch yeast is not the ideal, but it was a good starting point. I am not sure whether the sweetness I am detecting is a function of the yeast or maybe a just the pilsner malt flavor itself.

The bitterness is a little low.
I have ordered some German Magnum hops that I will use for some of the bittering IBUs in the next iteration....and will up it a bit. The Saaz hops are 2021 harvest.... have been kept vacuum sealed and in the freezer, but maybe they have oxidized a bit.

I don't have any personal experience with the lager yeast at warmer temps so I have no idea what the results would be if I pushed the temperatures.
Really interested to hear yeast suggestions given my fermentation temperature constraints.

Thanks!





Equip/Environment::
eBIAB using a Digiboil 65L.
Decoction mashing is out.
Ferment in 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubblers (not interested in setting the nozzles in ice water)
Fermentation is in an open garage with temperature this time of year 66-69F
Bottle conditioning/Bottling - no room for kegging.


GM Pseudo Pilsen/Kolsch(6.35 gallon )WIP2
TYPE: All Grain eBIAB

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.49 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.14 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.35 gal
Bottling Volume: 6.10 gal
OG: 1.056 SG
FG: 1.009 SG
Estimated Color: 4.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.2 IBUs
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Water Starting with RO - Did not adjust pH as no Acid available at time of this brew (will correct in future)
Calcium: 49.8
Sodium: 0.0
Chloride: 53.7
Magnesium: 8.2
Sulphate: 79.1
Bicarbonate: 0.0

4.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash)
3.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)
3.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash)

10 lbs Pilsen Malt (Briess) (1.2 SRM) - 72.7 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Goldpils Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) - 25.5 %
4.0 oz Munich 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM) - 1.8 %
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 12.0 oz

70.00 g Saaz US 2021 [4.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min - 31.0 IBUs -
25.00 g Saaz US 2021 [4.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min - 8.0 IBUs -
15.00 g Saaz US 2021 [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min - 2.3 IBUs -

1.0 pkg Kölm Kölsch Style Ale Yeast (Lallemand #- )

Mash Schedule: 10 eBIAB - Medium/Full Body (154F) 60 Min
 
Dump the Briess malts and use European or a good US craft malts. I recommend Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner for a Czech Pils. Vienna and Munich in a Czech Pils is not needed...go with like 97% Floor Malted BoPils and 3% CaraPils or CaraHell.

I would go with all Saaz, but Czech Saaz if you can get it, hop schedule seems fine. Change your water profile, Czech lagers all use a soft water profile. Lower everything to under 20 ppm, but bump Sulfate to 35-40. With just basically Pilsner malt and the lower water profile, you may want to add 1-2% of grain bill in acidulated malt, or use lactic acid to get mash pH around 5.25-5.30. Drop the mash temp to 150-151F,(higher temps = less fermentable sugars, could be the reason for the sweetness) or consider a step mash if using the Floor Malted Pils, something like 125F for 20, 145F for 30, 155 for 30, 168F mash out.

Now the hard part...yeah a fluctuation open garage temps and lager yeast can be an issue. Kolsch malt at normal fermenting temps provides a little fruitiness to a Kolsch, which is normal, so at warmer temps, I assume it really brings out those fruit notes. There are some lager yeasts that work well at warmer temps, 34/70 dry yeast, White Labs 833, Imperial Harvest, etc. The only issue is how well do they do in high 60's vs low 60's.

Any way to do a swamp cooler? If you don't know what that is, you basically put the fermenter in a rectangle cooler, fill the cooler 1/3 of the way up the fermenter with water, then put frozen water bottles in the water and swap them with new frozen bottles every 8-12 hours. If you can put a towel or old t-shirt over the fermenter too, so that it is touching the water, it will wick the cold water up keeping the shirt/towel damp and also help keep the fermenter cooler. Before I had temp control, I was able to do lagers in a mid-60's basement and keep the beer at 52F, a more proper lager ferm temp.
 
Dump the Briess malts and use European or a good US craft malts. I recommend Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner for a Czech Pils.
The Weyermann malt is indeed good stuff. Hana Heritage from Crisp is wonderful (Northern Brewer/Midwest Supplies has it in stock.)

Vienna and Munich in a Czech Pils is not needed...go with like 97% Floor Malted BoPils and 3% CaraPils or CaraHell.
Agreed on Vienna and Munich, though if you wanted to add a leetle bit of Munich (a percent or two) I'd look the other way.

In my experience CaraPils does nothing, and there's some literature out there that suggests it actually hurts foam retention.

I would go with all Saaz, but Czech Saaz if you can get it, hop schedule seems fine. Change your water profile, Czech lagers all use a soft water profile. Lower everything to under 20 ppm, but bump Sulfate to 35-40. With just basically Pilsner malt and the lower water profile, you may want to add 1-2% of grain bill in acidulated malt, or use lactic acid to get mash pH around 5.25-5.30. Drop the mash temp to 150-151F,(higher temps = less fermentable sugars, could be the reason for the sweetness) or consider a step mash if using the Floor Malted Pils, something like 125F for 20, 145F for 30, 155 for 30, 168F mash out.
The Weyermann floor-malted is well modified and will work just fine single infusion. The low-T rest is not a great idea (doesn't do much, might hurt foam); hochkurz (essentially what's left) would be fine if that's your thing.

Now the hard part...yeah a fluctuation open garage temps and lager yeast can be an issue. Kolsch malt at normal fermenting temps provides a little fruitiness to a Kolsch, which is normal, so at warmer temps, I assume it really brings out those fruit notes. There are some lager yeasts that work well at warmer temps, 34/70 dry yeast, White Labs 833, Imperial Harvest, etc. The only issue is how well do they do in high 60's vs low 60's.
I've had a lot of success with 34/70 with uncontrolled garage temperatures (though probably colder than what you've got.) Lallemand has tested it up to the low 70s, if I recall correctly, and it stays pretty neutral. But Lallemand Koln is a great yeast. Worst case, you end up with something that tastes more like a Kolsch than a Czech Pils ... but Kolsch is wonderful. Mmmmm, Kolsch.
 
My thoughts...
  • As mentioned previously - drop the Munich and Vienna.
  • Melanoidin is often suggested, but I have found that while it does add a flavor, its not like the decoction flavor you get in Pilsner Urquell or other German beers that are decocted.
  • As mentioned previously, 34/70 (aka WY2124, WLP830) is very robust and produces good lagers in the 60s
  • WLP800 is my favorite. This is a Pilsner Urquell strain. Per this Brulosophy exbeeriment, exBEERiment | Fermentation Temperature: WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast In A Pale Lager, it produced good results well into the 60s. Note, it finishes fermenting very slowly - 3.5 weeks.
 
Another option for authenticity is Sekado Czech Pilsner malt. I used it in a Czech pale and it has a delicious complex earthy, "rustic" flavor.
Sekado Premium Czech Bohemian Pilsner Malt (2L)

Pilsner Urquell has (to my taste) a characteristic creaminess that's unique to Czech beers. German beers don't have it-- they're cleaner and crisper. To me it tastes like bread dough and smells like baker's yeast. You get that from Czech-sourced yeasts, especially the Pilsner Urquell "H" strain: WY2001, Saflager-23. WLP800 is close but genetically different. Personally, I prefer the German lager flavors so I used WY2308 in my last Czech pale. I split the batch with a friend who used WLP800 instead, and his was significantly more creamy and yeasty.

For hops, Saaz is great and should be the backbone of the recipe. But I recommend a touch of Hallertau Mittelfruh as well. The reason is most hops do poorly as single hops. Adding a second different variety adds tremendous depth of flavor.

Czech brewers love decoctions, with even pale lagers getting triple decocted. That's an important flavor component if you want authenticity.

Good luck!
 
I would also drop the 10 min saaz addition, saaz seems to add too much fruitiness late in the boil in the last couple attempts I have tried. PU is not fruity at all to me but bitter and hoppy. But yes plenty of creamy buttered corn from diacetyl.
 
I know the Kolsch yeast is not the ideal, but it was a good starting point.
No, they are not interchangeable at all. Pastorianus ("Lager") and Cerevisiae ("Ale") strains produce slightly different aromatic compounds. Although the difference is minuscule it's enough to define "that German" or "that Pilsner" characteristic taste and to tell it easily from the Koelsch-type beers, which is exactly what you're experiencing reporting the beer as "sweet". If anything, you'd be better employing a Lager strain at a higher temperature than a Koelsch yeast at a lower temp. With a German Ale strain you could make a perfect crisp Koelsch but never a Pilsner.

If you are after the Urquell twang, triple decoction is the only way to approach it. Decoction extracts certain unfermentable substances from the grain that could hardly be extracted otherwise, and although the amount is, again, minuscule, it's those tiny insignificant bits that build synergetically the peculiar style flavour profile.

For an Urquell, you'd have to start your fermentation very cold and ferment longer than any German Lager. Don't do the Diacetyl rest, the Diacetyl is taken care of by the very long Lagering period (up from 3 months, no less) and what's left after that, again, adds to the unique Bohemian flavour profile.

Your hopping schedule looks good. Just notice that the higher IBUs in Bohemian Pilsners were designed not for the beer to be bitter but for it to not loose its aroma after the obligatory longer-than-usual Lagering period. It was much like with the contemporary English Keeping Ales, where IBUs were often in their hundreds but were expected to mellow significantly after a year-long conditioning.

For the grist, 20% Vienna Malt would fit better a Budweiser clone rather than an Urquell clone. Neither Budweiser or Urquell use grains other than Pilsner Malt but each of the two use custom-malted Czech Barley of certain varieties, so you may need to mix in some darker grain to emulate the Barley they use - that depends entirely of which kind of grain you have and your understanding of how you grain differs from theirs. In most cases, you'd better stay with just plain Pilsner (preferably, of Czech or at least German origin). If you still insist addind a darker shade of grain, do it, just don't use Munich in single-digit percents (like 1.8%) as it adds nothing at such tiny amounts, 10% is the minimum proportion for this grain in any grist.

Generally, I think you're putting yourself an extremely ambitious aim. True Bohemian Pilsners are notably difficult to recreate even to those experienced in Lager brewing. From another side, given some research and attention to the process it's a fully accomplishable task and the resulting beers could be really awesome. I wish you good luck with your Urquell endeavour!
 
Dump the Briess malts and use European or a good US craft malts. I recommend Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner for a Czech Pils. Vienna and Munich in a Czech Pils is not needed...go with like 97% Floor Malted BoPils and 3% CaraPils or CaraHell.

I would go with all Saaz, but Czech Saaz if you can get it, hop schedule seems fine. Change your water profile, Czech lagers all use a soft water profile. Lower everything to under 20 ppm, but bump Sulfate to 35-40. With just basically Pilsner malt and the lower water profile, you may want to add 1-2% of grain bill in acidulated malt, or use lactic acid to get mash pH around 5.25-5.30. Drop the mash temp to 150-151F,(higher temps = less fermentable sugars, could be the reason for the sweetness) or consider a step mash if using the Floor Malted Pils, something like 125F for 20, 145F for 30, 155 for 30, 168F mash out.

Now the hard part...yeah a fluctuation open garage temps and lager yeast can be an issue. Kolsch malt at normal fermenting temps provides a little fruitiness to a Kolsch, which is normal, so at warmer temps, I assume it really brings out those fruit notes. There are some lager yeasts that work well at warmer temps, 34/70 dry yeast, White Labs 833, Imperial Harvest, etc. The only issue is how well do they do in high 60's vs low 60's.

Any way to do a swamp cooler? If you don't know what that is, you basically put the fermenter in a rectangle cooler, fill the cooler 1/3 of the way up the fermenter with water, then put frozen water bottles in the water and swap them with new frozen bottles every 8-12 hours. If you can put a towel or old t-shirt over the fermenter too, so that it is touching the water, it will wick the cold water up keeping the shirt/towel damp and also help keep the fermenter cooler. Before I had temp control, I was able to do lagers in a mid-60's basement and keep the beer at 52F, a more proper lager ferm temp.
 
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There's always a work around for any situation.
 

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So much useful information. I will need to review and digest all the comments and suggestions a bit.

I see there is only so far I can go towards my stated goal given the constraints I listed....ie I can never really reproduce that PU flavor.

I still think the direction is not a bad one to continue to pursue.
The worst thing that is going to happen is that I will make some very good beers.

I do plan on brewing again in a couple of days so I will incorporate some of these into the next iteration for sure
Thanks!
 
That's great you're building your water right from the start. That simplifies the learning curve immensely. I didn't treat my water back then when I was starting brewing Lagers so I constantly failed to get any real clone, until I did.

Just don't overdo it. Here's the authentic water profile shared by the Budweis brewery:

Calcium 12ppm
Magnesium 7ppm
Sodium 6ppm
Chlorides 5ppm
Sulphates 9ppm
Alkalinity as bicarbonate 23ppm

Urquell's water must be practically the same.
 
+1 for S-189,running this now on 3 rd gen,is my new go to lager yeast(was 833) I've got a sachet of MJ M54 Cali yeast that I'm planning to pitch on my next Pils. The temp profile of this yeast should work in your situation. Your recipe as is would make a blonde ale with a Kolsch yeast(have one on tap now and it's outstanding) and a Helles with a lager yeast. I agree with the hive on removing malts and adding acidulated malt. Also 1 point is with these lighter beers the bittering charge flavor makes a difference and I prefer Perle hops at 60 min verses Magnum,and Sazz or Sterling at 15 and flameout,(or for me switch push).
 
All the brewing schooling I've taken says that it takes a minimum of 50 ppm calcium in the mash and boil for phosphate precipitation and yeast health. For a Pils I use .5 g/gal of brewing liquor CaCl2 ans CaSO4. .25 g/gal MgSO4 and NaCl.
 
All the brewing schooling I've taken says that it takes a minimum of 50 ppm calcium in the mash and boil for phosphate precipitation and yeast health. For a Pils I use .5 g/gal of brewing liquor CaCl2 ans CaSO4. .25 g/gal MgSO4 and NaCl.

Most everything I know about water I've learned from @mabrungard (and using his Bru'n Water has improved my beers greatly).

From his Bru'n Water "Water Knowledge" instructions:
"Calcium improves the flocculation of trub and yeast and limits the extraction of grain husk astringency. It also reduces haze and gushing potential, improves wort runoff from the lauter tun, and improves hop flavors. The typical range for brewing water calcium ion concentration is 50 to 100 ppm for ale brewing. Lager brewing can benefit from brewing with water with less than 50 ppm calcium."

Because of that I haven't worried about Ca when brewing lagers (I fortunately have very soft water) and it has not affected my beers negatively at all. Even my Kellerbiers clear up quickly.
 
I've got a sachet of MJ M54 Cali yeast that I'm planning to pitch on my next Pils.
Oh no...
MJ M54 is just a repacked Lalbrew Köln yeast.
I love it and use it often. It makes a perfect Kölsch and a great top-fermented Californian "Lager" but you'll never get a true Pilsner with it.
 
All the brewing schooling I've taken says that it takes a minimum of 50 ppm calcium in the mash and boil for phosphate precipitation and yeast health. For a Pils I use .5 g/gal of brewing liquor CaCl2 ans CaSO4. .25 g/gal MgSO4 and NaCl.
Ditto. My last Pils I tried using calcium lactate to up the Ca2+ concentration. It ... worked? As in, it was a perfectly good beer, and no obvious problems with mashing or boiling or fermenting.
 
Oh no...
MJ M54 is just a repacked Lalbrew Köln yeast.
I love it and use it often. It makes a perfect Kölsch and a great top-fermented Californian "Lager" but you'll never get a true Pilsner with it.
Jury's still out on M54. I think it's more likely K-97 than Lalbrew Koln. For a pilsner, I'd avoid all of the above and stick with a real pastorianus strain instead.
 
I've ordered some German Perle/German Magnum/and German Saaz hops.
I have about 120 grams of the US Saaz hops left that I plan on working my way thru.

I can't dump the Briess initially as I am so heavily invested in it.
As I run out of base malts I can convert, but can certainly get rid of the Vienna and Munich which I added to try and input a little color and malt.
I did order some CaraHells to potentially add.

For yeast I ordered dry packs:
S-23
S-189
W-34/70

I do have the ability to make starters if it would be usedful....in the past, the dry packs have seemed to work fine for the 6 gallon ferments, but those were all ales.

I reworked the potential next trial batch based on many of the comments above.
It is not set in stone by any means....but seems to be generally heading in the right direction...take a look:

Recipe: GM Pseudo Pilsen(6.35 gallon )WIP3
Style: Czech Premium Pale Lager
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.49 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.14 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.35 gal
Bottling Volume: 6.10 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 3.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 43.7 IBUs
Bitterness Ratio: 0.847
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Water Starting with RO - Adjusted target pH 5.21
Calcium: 11.2
Sodium: 5.6
Chloride: 5.2
Magnesium: 2.8
Sulphate: 10.9
Bicarbonate: 22.8


Ingredients:
---------------

13.00 ml Lactic Acid (Mash)
1.00 g Chalk (Mash)
1.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)
0.30 g Baking Soda (Mash)
0.30 g Salt (Mash)
12 lbs Pilsen Malt (Briess) (1.2 SRM) - 92.3 %
1 lbs Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) - 7.7 %
25.00 g Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min - 22.6 IBUs
25.00 g Saaz US 2021 [4.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min - 11.3 IBUs
30.00 g Saaz US 2021 [4.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min - 9.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafLager West European Lager (DCL/Fermentis #S-2 Yeast


Mash Schedule: 35 eBIAB - Hochkurz
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Maltose Rest Add 9.44 gal of water at 152.1 F 145.0 F 30 min
Dextrinization Step Add 0.00 gal of water at 155.0 F 155.0 F 30 min
Mash Out Add 0.00 gal of water at 168.0 F 168.0 F 10 min
 
I think it's more likely K-97 than Lalbrew Koln.
My experience is that M54's flavour profile is much closer to Lalbrew Köln than to K-97.
M54 is more estery, less sulfury and less laggy than Köln but otherwise it tastes and behaves like it is the same strain.
K-97 is noticeably tarter, breadier and less flocculent than both.
 
My experience is that M54's flavour profile is much closer to Lalbrew Köln than to K-97.
M54 is more estery, less sulfury and less laggy than Köln but otherwise it tastes and behaves like it is the same strain.
K-97 is noticeably tarter, breadier and less flocculent than both.

M54 is a very clean yeast under pressure and clears quickly. K97 behaves and tastes much differently than M54 for me too. K97 has big doughy kräusen like Verdant and M54 has a very clean white lager type kräusen. I can't say definitively if M54 is a lager, hybrid or ale strain, but it produces a very lager style beer profile with a little pressure.
 
As I run out of base malts I can convert, but can certainly get rid of the Vienna and Munich which I added to try and input a little color and malt.
I did order some CaraHells to potentially add.
Adding some Vienna was a closer approximation to emulating the Czech malt. In any case, 7.7% is unusually much. Even Horst Dornbusch who likes to add some 15 ot 20% Carapils to many traditional Lagers refrains from adding anything but Sauermalz to Bohemian Pilsner grist. I have never used Briess malts, however. So maybe adding so much Light Crystal is the right way to make Briess Pilsner Malt to taste like Moravian Hannah, I just don't know.

25.00 g Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min - 22.6 IBUs
Oh why did you change your bittering hop? It was perfectly correct, no need to swap it for Perle. You are making a clone, not just any Lager... Urquell use exclusively Saazer hop and take a great pride in showeling loads of it into their beer. Don't worry for the excess of vegetable matter, here it's an important part of the flavour profile and polyphenols will precipitate out during the long Lagering. Despite the wide-spread belief, different bittering hops do give different kind of bitterness and leave different trace flavours, so Perle isn't a 100% substitute for Saazer here. Perle is a great hop, just not for cloning a recipe where the bittering hop variety is very well known.

Otherwise your recipe looks good I think.

I wouldn't make a starter with dry yeasts. They are pretty viable, though a rehydration could shorten the lag time.
From the yeasts you listed, S-23 is the closest to the authentic Urquell yeast.
 
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The inclusion of the the CaraHells was mainly to get the color up a bit into the "style" guidelines. The amount was based on the same parameter. Not required at all. Was just a starting point and easily removed.
I did not mention but the "lagering" will be basically the beer being bottled with priming sugar then shelved in a storage shed I have to use for my bottled beers. It is attached to the side of the garage and semiheated from passive vents from the garage. It stays around the same temps as the garage with a little wider temperature swings. I can put a few bottles back in a fridge, but not many.
Our winter temperatures here in the Coastal Southeastern US swing pretty frequently .... it got up into the lower 70s today but the highs will be in the mid 40s this weekend.
 
I see now. Urquell gets it colour from triple decoction which darkens the wort, from 2-Hour boil and also from hot-side-aeration, dreaded by many but ignored by the Czech brewers (hence the use of "grants" in traditional Czech breweries, which oxidise the wort significantly but are thought of as an integral part of the traditional brewing setup). I'd suggest not to try matching the colour with adding darker grains to the grist, it's the brewing process that must "colour" your wort.

Lagering in bottles is totally OK I think, you pay for it with some trub on the bottom and the need to pour your beer more carefully when it's ready but otherwise it's the same process. Temp swings aren't a very healthy thing but they aren't as critical at the Lagering stage as during the Primary Fermentation.
 
All the brewing schooling I've taken says that it takes a minimum of 50 ppm calcium in the mash and boil for phosphate precipitation and yeast health. For a Pils I use .5 g/gal of brewing liquor CaCl2 ans CaSO4. .25 g/gal MgSO4 and NaCl.

That is true in the most part especially for ales, but lagers are the exception. Martin Brungard, who is the creator of Bru'n Water software has stressed that lagers do not need 50 ppm calcium and in some threads on here, I believe he as recommended cutting it in half for lagers. Braukasier also has several low Ca lager profiles on his site, including that of Weihenstephaners. https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes The Czech Republic is famous for their lagers brewed with very soft water.

I brew plenty of lagers , most of them whit calcium below 30 and have never had an issue and for the most part, the beers have always performed well in various comps.
 
That might be so ,but my Check Pils earned a 45 at the 2017 NHC second round with this liquor profile and one of the comments was Brilliant. Can't get that without calcium or a filter and a filter I don't have.
 

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