Bru’n water for Extract no boil

[Dgallo]

I’m a all grain brewer but I have a 5 month old that is making brew day very difficult. I’m trying a no boil, extract NEIPA for the hell of it to, since it will greatly reduce the length of my brew day.

So my question is directly at my water adjustments.... since I’m not mashingor sparging would I just combine both those adjustment in my total volume kettle since I’m not boiling, only pasteurizing the wort. I’m not worried about Ph can easily adjust that in the fly just wanted to know if my thinking is correct

 

[IslandLizard]

That sounds the right way to do it. Adjust the wort pH after chilling, if needed or desired.

How are you getting your bittering? Just from lower temp steeping/whirlpooling? Isomerization is (almost) negligible at 140F and under, but becomes noticeable somewhere around 150F, exponentially increasing with rising temps. Thinking of 30' at 170-160F?

 

[Dgallo]

That sounds the right way to do it. Adjust the wort pH after chilling, if needed or desired.

How are you getting your bittering? Just from lower temp steeping/whirlpooling? Isomerization is (almost) negligible at 140F and under, but becomes noticeable somewhere around 150F, exponentially increasing with rising temps. Thinking of 30' at 170-160F?

I’m going to bring it up to 180 and use an ounce of cryo (aa 25.4) and 2 ounces of pellet (aa 14.1) for my ibus and let it natural fall to 165 and whirlpool again but hold it there. Ive been reading a lot in to pasteurization and it looks like 165*f for 5 minutes actually will do the trick so bringing it to 180 will make me feel comfortable and give me the ibus I’m looking for. I’m also increasing my so4 by 40 ppm to help the perceived bitterness

 

[Steveruch]

I've been doing a bunch of no-boil extract batches lately (see Last Drop in the current Zymurgy) and all I do with my water is filter it for chlorine.

 

[kevink]

I’m going to bring it up to 180 and use an ounce of cryo (aa 25.4) and 2 ounces of pellet (aa 14.1) for my ibus and let it natural fall to 165 and whirlpool again but hold it there. Ive been reading a lot in to pasteurization and it looks like 165*f for 5 minutes actually will do the trick so bringing it to 180 will make me feel comfortable and give me the ibus I’m looking for. I’m also increasing my so4 by 40 ppm to help the perceived bitterness

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out!

 

[Dgallo]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out!

Thanks man. I’m just hoping it close to being equivalent to my all grain batches. I’m seeping some flaked barley for body. It’s going to be a single hop mosaic NEIPA with Kviek horndival

 

[IslandLizard]

I’m seeping some flaked barley for body.

How does steeping raw flaked barley give you body?

 

[Dgallo]

How does steeping raw flaked barley give you body?

Flaked grains are unmalted so their protein chains are longer because they are not broken down through the malting process. Longer/more proteins increase mouthfeel. Seeping grains is essentially mashing, so if you target an alpha temp range you will be gaining the proteins as well as the unfermentable dextrins in flaked barley. This will benefit the body and mouthfeel

 

[BobBailey]

I’m a all grain brewer but I have a 5 month old that is making brew day very difficult. I’m trying a no boil, extract NEIPA for the hell of it to, since it will greatly reduce the length of my brew day.

So my question is directly at my water adjustments.... since I’m not mashingor sparging would I just combine both those adjustment in my total volume kettle since I’m not boiling, only pasteurizing the wort. I’m not worried about Ph can easily adjust that in the fly just wanted to know if my thinking is correct[/QUOTE

Flaked grains are unmalted so their protein chains are longer because they are not broken down through the malting process. Longer/more proteins increase mouthfeel. Seeping grains is essentially mashing, so if you target an alpha temp range you will be gaining the proteins as well as the unfermentable dextrins in flaked barley. This will benefit the body and mouthfeel

When extract brewing it's best to use RO or distilled water. The extract manufacturer used a particular water profile in the mash to create the extract. If you have a meter you might check pH after fermentation is complete.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So my question is directly at my water adjustments.... since I’m not mashingor sparging would I just combine both those adjustment in my total volume kettle since I’m not boiling, only pasteurizing the wort

Over the past couple of years, I've done a number of 1-gal extract-based APA/IPA recipes with gypsum added at the start of the boil. In retrospect, I should have started the first batch with a smaller amount of gypsum and added more in the glass to 'dial-in' a good amount.

Recently, I found a book that has a table of brewing salt additions based on profiles ('Quite Bitter', 'Extra bitter', 'Balanced', ...). The 'Extra bitter' profile is essentially the same as what I discovered when I was dialing-in (or 'seasoning to taste') the recipe. I'll likely try out some of the other profiles over the next couple of months.

FWIW, I typically brew extract batches with Briess DME and distilled water.

 

[Dgallo]

When extract brewing it's best to use RO or distilled water. The extract manufacturer used a particular water profile in the mash to create the extract. If you have a meter you might check pH after fermentation is complete.

I’m not saying you’re incorrect but that would seem silly that they themsleves dont have an RO system since they also serve commercial Breweries/Distilleries that would most likely like to target their own specific water profile.

Like I said PH is the easy adjustment. I was just looking to target the specific water profile I use when Brewing this style all grain.

 

[mabrungard]

Using RO is the most helpful thing an extract brewer can do. The main benefit of RO is its low alkalinity. The Sparging Acidification tool in Bru’n Water is what you need if you’re using tap water and need to reduce it’s alkalinity. The only other thing you might consider is flavoring the beer with appropriate mineralization.

 

[BobBailey]

I’m not saying you’re incorrect but that would seem silly that they themsleves dont have an RO system since they also serve commercial Breweries/Distilleries that would most likely like to target their own specific water profile.

Like I said PH is the easy adjustment. I was just looking to target the specific water profile I use when Brewing this style all grain.

I didn't imply that they don't have their own RO system. I stated that they used a particular water profile in the mash to create the extract. This profile, I'm sure, would be tailored to the type of extract. Whether or not they use RO water as a base is irrelevant.

If you're targeting a specific water profile for an extract brew you'd essentially be doing an adjustment I'd liken to adding salt and pepper to your food at the table. Unless you can find the mineral content of the mash and boil conducted to create the extract, you're working blind. It appears that a detailed analysis or trial and error are your options.

 

[dmtaylor]

Use distilled water with a pinch of gypsum. That's the water profile you want for an EXTRACT IPA.

 

[Dgallo]

Well we will see what happens. I adjusted based on my tap water and as if I were to brew an All grain leaving wiggle room in both ends to target Cl 140 s04 100 and Ca 80

 

[dmtaylor]

Well we will see what happens. I adjusted based on my tap water and as if I were to brew an All grain leaving wiggle room in both ends to target Cl 140 s04 100 and Ca 80

Well, since extract already contains minerals, your additions could basically result in numbers that are double what you think they are........

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Has anyone seen resources that talk compare the mineral composition of malt extracts (e.g. pilsen DME/LME) to the matching base malt?

Or any insights into the water chemistry used to make the malt extract?

 

[mabrungard]

I'm not sure if any minerals are added to any of the various malt extracts, expecting for the original content in the water. The main thing that concerns me with any extract products is the sodium content in Briess extract. The water supply in the town that Briess is located in, performs ion-exchange softening on the municipal supply and that means that Briess' water is full of sodium.

I just spoke with Dan Bies of Briess and he acknowledges the high sodium content, but their main market for extract is the food business. Extract is used in a lot of food and baking and the brewing market is very small in comparison. Sodium is not a problem for the food market, but can be a problem for us.

 

[ncbrewer]

The Sparging Acidification tool in Bru’n Water is what you need if you’re using tap water and need to reduce it’s alkalinity.

Bru'n Water advises using water with under 50 ppm alkalinity. Is any alkalinity between zero and 50 good? I plan to take your advice on reducing alkalinity for my next batch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm not sure if any minerals are added to any of the various malt extracts, expecting for the original content in the water. The main thing that concerns me with any extract products is the sodium content in Briess extract. The water supply in the town that Briess is located in, performs ion-exchange softening on the municipal supply and that means that Briess' water is full of sodium.

I just spoke with Dan Bies of Briess and he acknowledges the high sodium content, but their main market for extract is the food business. Extract is used in a lot of food and baking and the brewing market is very small in comparison. Sodium is not a problem for the food market, but can be a problem for us.

Thank you! Useful information for attempting to confirm what I mentioned back in post #10.

 

[wepeeler]

I made the mistake of adding water additions to my distilled water when using extract at the beginning of my brewing career, and it came out a salty mess. After some research, the companies making extract use their own water profile and minerals to produce the extract. No further additions are necessary for extract brewing.

Steeping flaked adjuncts without malted grain (ie enzymes) will increase body but also increase unfermentables. Also heard it can affect head retention. How much flaked are you steeping?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No further additions are necessary for extract brewing.

I'll agree that one generally doesn't want to do a "full" water treatment when brewing with extract malts. However, ...

... many people, including myself, have been successful in tipping the sulfate-to-chloride ratio (towards hoppy) by adding small amounts of gypsum. There are a couple of homebrewing books that talk about this in more detail; and also talk about tipping the sulfate-to-chloride ratio towards malty (which is something that I haven't tried yet).

 

[dmtaylor]

Gah......... I hate the damn "ratio". Don't get me started.......

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thanks man. I’m just hoping it close to being equivalent to my all grain batches. I’m seeping some flaked barley for body. It’s going to be a single hop mosaic NEIPA with Kviek horndival

I am curious what your extract bill looks like. I saw that Briess sells a Munich extract (50% Munich) so I was thinking of trying an extract NEIPA (2.5 gal) with 1.5 lb Pilsner, 1.5 lbs Wheat, 0.5 lbs Munich. This would be mostly as an easy way to try out different hops and hopping techniques. The Munich extract is listed at 8L and they also have a Vienna extract listed at 6L.

I believe that Scott Janish did some research showing that mashing Carapils/Dextrin Malt did not really add much in the way of dextrins, but that steeping did. That might be worth looking into. Extract has a reputation of not being very fermentable, so maybe it is not needed.

 

[mabrungard]

Bru'n Water advises using water with under 50 ppm alkalinity. Is any alkalinity between zero and 50 good? I plan to take your advice on reducing alkalinity for my next batch.

Closer to zero, if you're brewing with extract.

 

[Dgallo]

I am curious what your extract bill looks like.

6 lbs - Pilsner lite
3 lbs - golden lite
1 lb - Bavarian Wheat
2lbs - flaked barely Steeped.

6.25 gallons went into the fermenter to accommodate the dryhops and I have a closed transfer system so my FV diptube is elevated to account for trub and then some to transfer clear beer into the serving keg.

Og- 1.078
Fg - 1.014

Omega 091 - Kviek Horndival (reached fg in 52 hours)

 

[wepeeler]

6 lbs - Pilsner lite
3 lbs - golden lite
1 lb - Bavarian Wheat
2lbs - flaked barely Steeped.

6.25 gallons went into the fermenter to accommodate the dryhops and I have a closed transfer system so my FV diptube is elevated to account for trub and then some to transfer clear beer into the serving keg.

Og- 1.078
Fg - 1.014

Omega 091 - Kviek Horndival (reached fg in 52 hours)

That's insane. You love that yeast! Can't wait to try some

 

[Dgallo]

That's insane. You love that yeast! Can't wait to try some

This is my 3rd beer in a row with it. I still prefer A24 but this stuff is pretty good. Lots of pineapple esters and how do you beat that speed lol

 

[wepeeler]

This is my 3rd beer in a row with it. I still prefer A24 but this stuff is pretty good. Lots of pineapple esters and how do you beat that speed lol

No kidding. Gonna have to try it out. Still haven't even tried Imperial yet. Looking to try Juice and A24.

 

[ncbrewer]

Closer to zero, if you're brewing with extract.

Great to know - thanks.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Extract has a reputation of not being very fermentable, so maybe it is not needed.

FWIW, Briess (and probably others) include fermentability information in their product information sheets. Ingredients, like people, can change over time - so don't be afraid to consider "new evidence" (especially if the reputation is based on something a long, long time ago).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Those looking for approaches to adding brewing salts in the glass might find posts 8 and 9 in this topic useful: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...fter-it-has-been-brewed-and-fermented.668470/ .

Gah......... I hate the damn "ratio". Don't get me started.......

Sorry. I needed a short phrase to separate using brewing salts in the mash (all-grain water chemistry spreadsheets) from brewing salts used for flavoring purposes (measuring spoons that have often have whimsical names like tad and smidgen).

As for the idea of adding brewing salts for flavoring purposes to extract-based recipes, I doubt there will be a consensus as to whether or not it works.

How to Brew, 4e (chapter 8) is a recent home brewing book that offers approaches to enhance hop flavors or to enhance maltiness - but it's not the first. Reply #10 (above) mentions another book that offers a "measuring spoon" or "jewelry scale" ready approach.

So one can "dial in" a extract based recipe using a type of malt extract from a specific manufacturer - this is not all that different from "all-grain" based recipes.

Is the recipe durable over time (probably)? Is it practical to substitute other manufacturers malt extract in the recipe and get the same result (maybe yes)? Again, this is not all that different from "all-grain" based recipes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I’m trying a no boil, extract NEIPA for the hell of it to, since it will greatly reduce the length of my brew day.

Did you brew this? What did you do for brewing salts?

 

[Dgallo]

Did you brew this? What did you do for brewing salts?

I did. I believe it was 2.8 gr cacl and 2.6 mgso4. At first it seemed minerally but after two weeks in the keg it was great

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

it was great

Good to hear, especially adjusting both cl and so4.

For future readers, I stumbled into a free article that offers guidance similar to what's in How to Brew, 4e.

Tips For Extract Brewers

Malt extract is concentrated wort, and the extract’s brewmaster has already made the water decisions. All you really need to be concerned about as an extract brewer is rehydrating the malt extract back to its original composition. And for that, a low mineral mountain stream source or distilled water source is ideal.

If you want to add brewing salts to your water, I urge you to brew the beer without the salts first and see how it tastes. This is where water adjustment gets tricky for extract brewers: You don’t know how much sulfate or chloride is already present in your malt extract. It doesn’t matter whether you are brewing with dry malt extract or liquid malt extract; the minerals are still there.

If you want to add brewing salts to enhance the flavor of the beer, use either 1 gram of calcium sulfate per gallon (3.8 liters) of wort for bitterness or 1 gram of calcium chloride per gallon (3.8 liters) of wort for fullness. Don’t use both, and don’t exceed 1 gram per gallon (3.8 liters) until you have brewed with that extract recipe and determined how it tastes.

Remember, don’t go overboard with water adjustment. Brewing is cooking, and using brewing salts and acid additions can easily be overdone, just like over-salting your food.

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-water/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This was published about the same time that this topic was winding down. It looks like a good experiment for those wanting to understand (and/or fail small) how to use brewing salts with malt extracts.

https://beerandbrewing.com/learning-lab-water-treatment-for-all/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Interesting approach for "dailing in" brewing salt additions on the first batch.

The article series is written for extract+steep brewers, but this might work for all-grain brewers as well . And, as always YMMV.

Personalizing Additions:

To determine how much mineral(s) might influence your beer, try the procedure below.

1. Fill a clean 1-liter bottle or flask with RO water, and dissolving 2 grams of gypsum or calcium chloride. Shake to dissolve completely, creating a 2000 ppm solution of the salt.
2. Pick a homebrew and split into four 3-ounce (89 ml) servings. Use gypsum for hoppy or calcium chloride for malty beers.
3. Using a calibrated pipette or eyedropper, add 1 milliliter of solution into the first serving, 2 into the second, and so forth. Start with the first serving and work toward the fourth, taking notes.
4. Decide which serving you prefer. Mark that down. If you preferred serving #4, open another beer and continue the process.
5. Take the serving number (with equivalent number of additions) and do the math:
   1. The 1 milliliter dose equals 2 milligrams of the salt
   2. Multiply the preferred dose by 2, yielding the milligrams of salt added
   3. There are roughly 43 three-ounce samples in 5 gallons
   4. Multiply the milligrams dosed by 43, yielding milligrams needed for 5 gallons, and divide by 1000 to yield grams. 1 tsp = roughly 2 grams of gypsum or calcium chloride
   5. Use this amount of mineral salt in your next brew of that recipe!

https://blog.eckraus.com/water-management-for-extract-brewing-3

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting approach for "dailing in" brewing salt additions on the first batch.

I played around with something like this early in 2019. I was not having much luck, then I stepped back and did some calcs and found that you have to add a lot of Gypsum to push your beer up to the 200 ppm range for Sulfate. Much more than 2 grams in 1 L of water.

Looking at the spreadsheet I created for this, to simulate 145 ppm of Sulfate in a beer, you need to make a solution of 200 ml water + 5.2 g Gypsum, then add 2 ml of that solution to a 200 ml beer sample. To simulate 100 ppm of Chloride, you would do the same but add 3.1 g of Calcium Chloride to the solution.

Now that I have more experience with water chemistry I plan to cycle back to this...maybe with a batch brewed with RO water.

Even at the time, it was hard to pick out a clear "better" amount. When I knew what was in the sample I felt that I got the "expected" character (if I sampled a beer with added Gypsum I detected more crisp hop flavors) but when I mixed up the samples and tasted them blind I usually could not tell which was which or which one I preferred.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks for the insights. I'll look into your numbers / approach in more detail over the next couple of months.

Most recently, I did a variation of the "learning lab" beers (see #36 above for link) - just "sulfate" and "chloride" enhanced variations of the same recipe (but at lower amounts). Side by side, I found the differences noticeable.

With IBUs, it's often stated that people generally don't notice a 5 IBU difference.

Are there similar values for sulfates and chlorides (for example people don't notice a difference between 30 ppm and 35 ppm)?

 

[Dgallo]

With IBUs, it's often stated that people generally don't notice a 5 IBU difference.

I’ve actually read it’s much higher, something upwards of 15 ibus can be indistinguishable by most tasters. Im pretty sure I saved the article, I wanted to become a certified BJCP judge