Bru’n water for Extract no boil

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Extract has a reputation of not being very fermentable, so maybe it is not needed.

FWIW, Briess (and probably others) include fermentability information in their product information sheets. Ingredients, like people, can change over time - so don't be afraid to consider "new evidence" (especially if the reputation is based on something a long, long time ago).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Those looking for approaches to adding brewing salts in the glass might find posts 8 and 9 in this topic useful: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...fter-it-has-been-brewed-and-fermented.668470/ .

Gah......... I hate the damn "ratio". Don't get me started.......

Sorry. I needed a short phrase to separate using brewing salts in the mash (all-grain water chemistry spreadsheets) from brewing salts used for flavoring purposes (measuring spoons that have often have whimsical names like tad and smidgen).

As for the idea of adding brewing salts for flavoring purposes to extract-based recipes, I doubt there will be a consensus as to whether or not it works.

How to Brew, 4e (chapter 8) is a recent home brewing book that offers approaches to enhance hop flavors or to enhance maltiness - but it's not the first. Reply #10 (above) mentions another book that offers a "measuring spoon" or "jewelry scale" ready approach.

So one can "dial in" a extract based recipe using a type of malt extract from a specific manufacturer - this is not all that different from "all-grain" based recipes.

Is the recipe durable over time (probably)? Is it practical to substitute other manufacturers malt extract in the recipe and get the same result (maybe yes)? Again, this is not all that different from "all-grain" based recipes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I’m trying a no boil, extract NEIPA for the hell of it to, since it will greatly reduce the length of my brew day.

Did you brew this? What did you do for brewing salts?

 

[Dgallo]

Did you brew this? What did you do for brewing salts?

I did. I believe it was 2.8 gr cacl and 2.6 mgso4. At first it seemed minerally but after two weeks in the keg it was great

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

it was great

Good to hear, especially adjusting both cl and so4.

For future readers, I stumbled into a free article that offers guidance similar to what's in How to Brew, 4e.

Tips For Extract Brewers

Malt extract is concentrated wort, and the extract’s brewmaster has already made the water decisions. All you really need to be concerned about as an extract brewer is rehydrating the malt extract back to its original composition. And for that, a low mineral mountain stream source or distilled water source is ideal.

If you want to add brewing salts to your water, I urge you to brew the beer without the salts first and see how it tastes. This is where water adjustment gets tricky for extract brewers: You don’t know how much sulfate or chloride is already present in your malt extract. It doesn’t matter whether you are brewing with dry malt extract or liquid malt extract; the minerals are still there.

If you want to add brewing salts to enhance the flavor of the beer, use either 1 gram of calcium sulfate per gallon (3.8 liters) of wort for bitterness or 1 gram of calcium chloride per gallon (3.8 liters) of wort for fullness. Don’t use both, and don’t exceed 1 gram per gallon (3.8 liters) until you have brewed with that extract recipe and determined how it tastes.

Remember, don’t go overboard with water adjustment. Brewing is cooking, and using brewing salts and acid additions can easily be overdone, just like over-salting your food.

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-water/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This was published about the same time that this topic was winding down. It looks like a good experiment for those wanting to understand (and/or fail small) how to use brewing salts with malt extracts.

https://beerandbrewing.com/learning-lab-water-treatment-for-all/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Interesting approach for "dailing in" brewing salt additions on the first batch.

The article series is written for extract+steep brewers, but this might work for all-grain brewers as well . And, as always YMMV.

Personalizing Additions:

To determine how much mineral(s) might influence your beer, try the procedure below.

1. Fill a clean 1-liter bottle or flask with RO water, and dissolving 2 grams of gypsum or calcium chloride. Shake to dissolve completely, creating a 2000 ppm solution of the salt.
2. Pick a homebrew and split into four 3-ounce (89 ml) servings. Use gypsum for hoppy or calcium chloride for malty beers.
3. Using a calibrated pipette or eyedropper, add 1 milliliter of solution into the first serving, 2 into the second, and so forth. Start with the first serving and work toward the fourth, taking notes.
4. Decide which serving you prefer. Mark that down. If you preferred serving #4, open another beer and continue the process.
5. Take the serving number (with equivalent number of additions) and do the math:
   1. The 1 milliliter dose equals 2 milligrams of the salt
   2. Multiply the preferred dose by 2, yielding the milligrams of salt added
   3. There are roughly 43 three-ounce samples in 5 gallons
   4. Multiply the milligrams dosed by 43, yielding milligrams needed for 5 gallons, and divide by 1000 to yield grams. 1 tsp = roughly 2 grams of gypsum or calcium chloride
   5. Use this amount of mineral salt in your next brew of that recipe!

https://blog.eckraus.com/water-management-for-extract-brewing-3

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting approach for "dailing in" brewing salt additions on the first batch.

I played around with something like this early in 2019. I was not having much luck, then I stepped back and did some calcs and found that you have to add a lot of Gypsum to push your beer up to the 200 ppm range for Sulfate. Much more than 2 grams in 1 L of water.

Looking at the spreadsheet I created for this, to simulate 145 ppm of Sulfate in a beer, you need to make a solution of 200 ml water + 5.2 g Gypsum, then add 2 ml of that solution to a 200 ml beer sample. To simulate 100 ppm of Chloride, you would do the same but add 3.1 g of Calcium Chloride to the solution.

Now that I have more experience with water chemistry I plan to cycle back to this...maybe with a batch brewed with RO water.

Even at the time, it was hard to pick out a clear "better" amount. When I knew what was in the sample I felt that I got the "expected" character (if I sampled a beer with added Gypsum I detected more crisp hop flavors) but when I mixed up the samples and tasted them blind I usually could not tell which was which or which one I preferred.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks for the insights. I'll look into your numbers / approach in more detail over the next couple of months.

Most recently, I did a variation of the "learning lab" beers (see #36 above for link) - just "sulfate" and "chloride" enhanced variations of the same recipe (but at lower amounts). Side by side, I found the differences noticeable.

With IBUs, it's often stated that people generally don't notice a 5 IBU difference.

Are there similar values for sulfates and chlorides (for example people don't notice a difference between 30 ppm and 35 ppm)?

 

[Dgallo]

With IBUs, it's often stated that people generally don't notice a 5 IBU difference.

I’ve actually read it’s much higher, something upwards of 15 ibus can be indistinguishable by most tasters. Im pretty sure I saved the article, I wanted to become a certified BJCP judge

 

[dmtaylor]

I’ve actually read it’s much higher, something upwards of 15 ibus can be indistinguishable by most tasters. Im pretty sure I saved the article, I wanted to become a certified BJCP judge

I'm pretty sure it's smaller, closer to 3 IBUs.

But could be wrong.

Are there similar values for sulfates and chlorides (for example people don't notice a difference between 30 ppm and 35 ppm)?

I think it's in the realm of 100-200 ppm where people can taste differences. Like 150 ppm sulfate vs. 250 ppm sulfate, *maybe* somebody could detect a difference. And at 150 vs. 350 ppm, a little more likely.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think it's in the realm of 100-200 ppm where people can taste differences. Like 150 ppm sulfate vs. 250 ppm sulfate, *maybe* somebody could detect a difference. And at 150 vs. 350 ppm, a little more likely.

thinking out loud here: So it looks like one practical approach may be to start with relative extremes for salt additions and work towards the middle. As a point of reference, Learning Lab: Water Treatment for All offers a set of relative bounds for sulfate-heavy and chloride-heavy treatments in a recipe.

I played around with something like this early in 2019. I was not having much luck, then I stepped back and did some calcs and found that you have to add a lot of Gypsum to push your beer up to the 200 ppm range for Sulfate. Much more than 2 grams in 1 L of water.

Looking at the spreadsheet I created for this, to simulate 145 ppm of Sulfate in a beer, you need to make a solution of 200 ml water + 5.2 g Gypsum, then add 2 ml of that solution to a 200 ml beer sample. To simulate 100 ppm of Chloride, you would do the same but add 3.1 g of Calcium Chloride to the solution.

After reviewing the various approaches, I did some "back of the envelope" calculations to get a small solution (0.2g gypsum in 100ml distilled water) so I could work with teaspoon / tablespoon additions in a 12 oz bottle. For the specific beer (probably along the lines of early 2000s APA), I found (this time anyway) that tablespoon additions were noticeable. Next step will be to put together a lookup table: 1 tablespoon of solution is an x.x gram addition to the recipe. Tablespoon measurements (and 12 oz bottle pours) are not precise measurement, but they may be to be "close enough".