British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[bierhaus15]

The actual 64-68-64 fermentation schedule comes from Fullers and is what they supposedly use with their yeast - WY1968. Some of us home brewers adopted this method as a means to better preserve the "English" character that this yeast produces. With that said, unless you have impeccable fermentation control and are pitching large quantities of yeast into highly oxygenated wort, you'd really be better off not cold crashing until your fermentation is complete.

Rather, a better way to get a clean beer and save yeast character, is to pitch low (62-64F) and let the ferment temp free rise up to around 68F. From there, once fermentation is complete and diacetyl is not apparent, cold crash as normal.

I would not cold crash any beer within 72hrs of pitching. Give the beer at least a week.

 

[CadiBrewer]

Thanks. That's what my gut was telling me. I'll bump it back up to 68 and leave it there until the 7 day mark. I'll sample it and then decide at that point whether to crash or not.

 

[AT-JeffT]

The schedule tells me I should cold crash. I'm afraid to cold crash after only 72 hours from pitching. My plan is to let it sit at 64 for at least another 3 days, and then child crash for a week.

The yeast doesn't care how long its been since you pitched. Gravity and what phase the yeast is in is the only meaningful metric. In your case the yeast has just sped though many of the phases already. If you don't want your beer to be too "cleaned up" I wouldn't be afraid to crash at this time. You could always warm it back up if you aren't happy with it as well.

 

[Arrheinous]

I've got an ESB which has been in primary for two weeks with WLP005. The cottage cheese appearance is a dramatic departure from the look of other strains.

My issue is that after two weeks half of the "curds" are floating up top and the rest are very loosely packed around the bottom. Should I wait for the floating yeast to fall back down or will they remain there even after they're done working?

 

[progmac]

i'm working through this thread, but i haven't come across an idea i'm considering...

i have heard that english homebrewers traditionally would rack to secondary before primary fermentation was complete (say when 50% of FG is reached).

would this perhaps have a similar effect as dropping the temperature?

 

[Piratwolf]

Cadi, in my opinion (and in the advice from many brewers on the BN) you should always let the yeast finish out. 72 hours isn't insane for a bitter to finish, but give the yeast 24-48 more hours to clean up after themselves. That's my 2 pennies, anyway.

 

[14thstreet]

i'm working through this thread, but i haven't come across an idea i'm considering...

i have heard that english homebrewers traditionally would rack to secondary before primary fermentation was complete (say when 50% of FG is reached).

would this perhaps have a similar effect as dropping the temperature?

This practice may have come from what traditional commercial breweries did either in the form of burton unions or the double dropping system. Burton Unions were used in part to reclaim excess yeast for successive brews and the dropping system was used to remove early trub (for cleaner yeast harvest or cleaner beer) and in some situations to introduce oxygen to promote yeast health and the desired production of diacetyl. It also could have been influenced by cask fermentations or lagering which used the remaining fermentation and generation of CO2 to carbonate the beer in its final package.

 

[ukulele01]

The actual 64-68-64 fermentation schedule comes from Fullers and is what they supposedly use with their yeast - WY1968. Some of us home brewers adopted this method as a means to better preserve the "English" character that this yeast produces. With that said, unless you have impeccable fermentation control and are pitching large quantities of yeast into highly oxygenated wort, you'd really be better off not cold crashing until your fermentation is complete.

Rather, a better way to get a clean beer and save yeast character, is to pitch low (62-64F) and let the ferment temp free rise up to around 68F. From there, once fermentation is complete and diacetyl is not apparent, cold crash as normal.

I would not cold crash any beer within 72hrs of pitching. Give the beer at least a week.

Hello. As a lover of estery, malty Bristish beer since a visit to England in 1984, I have read this entire thread with great interest. I would love to be able to make something that great at home, but I am not in a position to do what is described here (the Fuller's method) as I don't have a brew fridge; I just have a thermometer probe, a hydrometer, and four layers of bubble wrap insulation around my brew bucket to which I add or subtract variously sized ice packs. And I am not an all grain brewer either, just a kits and bits, dry yeast, bottle conditioning brewer. But I want to make the most of what I have to work with. I would like to ask some advice of the experienced brewers here, as to date none of my beers have been estery (probably been because I have left them too long -three weeks- in the primary). I plan to make a Coopers Real Ale or a Coopers English Bitter with 500gm DME and Nottingham yeast. At what temp should I pitch it? How high should I let it rise? Does it still make sense to reduce the temp back to pitching temp, and then cold crash, if I am not going to keg? How quickly should I bottle? How long should I let it condition at room temp before moving to cooler conditions? In terms of cooler conditions, I have a choice of a location in the house that is 15C and another that is 2C at night and 8C in the daytime (I am in Canada and it is -30C outside right now). Thanks in advance.

P.S. Is there another dry yeast your would recommend over Nottingham? I also have access to the new Mangrove Jack's dry yeasts and was thinking of their Burton Union yeast, which is said to be estery.

 

[AT-JeffT]

P.S. Is there another dry yeast your would recommend over Nottingham? I also have access to the new Mangrove Jack's dry yeasts and was thinking of their Burton Union yeast, which is said to be estery.

Fermentis Safale S-04. Nottingham does poorly at >68F I think that S-04 will have more esters and will be closer to the esters you are looking for. I've taken S-04 to 72F but I would recommend 70F.

 

[stevo4361]

+1 to s04. A lot more forgiving than Nottingham with, by my tastes, very similar flavor profile.

 

[gbx]

Fermentis Safale S-04. Nottingham does poorly at >68F I think that S-04 will have more esters and will be closer to the esters you are looking for. I've taken S-04 to 72F but I would recommend 70F.

Maybe its just me but I think S04 is awful as are most dry yeasts: S04 has weird esters and acetaldehyde problems, nottingham strips out almost all flavour, windsor does not floc and tastes musty. The only dry yeasts I've ever used that I've been at all satisfied with are US-05 and w-34/70. If I was going to brew something English and I had to use dry yeast, I would use US-05. It would be too clean but at least I could still taste the malt and hops and it wouldn't have any off flavours.

I would love to find a decent dry yeast but I've never been satisfied with any I've tried. (but i've never really been 100% satisfied any yeast, wy1318 is my favourite one but it still pisses me off sometimes)

 

[ukulele01]

Thanks. For this next batch I will use Notty, as I have it on order; we will see after that. I had a Brown Ale my brother-in-law made at a U-brew with a Festa Brew kit using Nottingham and it was estery; quite nice actually. I understand that the U-Brew fermented at 68-70F and that they bottled at the 10 day point. I am thinking of doing the same thing, but bottling on day 8, depending on how the hydro sample tastes.

Am I right in thinking that one should not cold crashing in the primary before bottling, as I supposed you need to keep some yeast in suspension for bottling purposes? What about cold crashing in the bottles, after some initial time at 18-20C, to give the yeast time to ferment the priming sugar; how short a time at room temp could I get away with? Three days? Five days? Seven days? I am hoping that cold crashing the bottles would prevent the yeast from cleaning up the esters too much in the bottle. Thanks again.

 

[winvarin]

In my limited experience with Notty, it ferments very clean in the 62 and below range. Get it much warmer than 65-66 and it really starts kicking out esters. The 66-68f range seems like you've turned on an "ester switch"

Unless I'm using the "Fullers profile" discussed at length in this thread most of my beers get a similar ferment schedule.

- pitch a couple of degrees below my desired main fermentation temp

- warm into that temp over the first 12-24 hrs

- ferment at that temp until airlock activity begging to slow.

- ramp up 1f per day over a few days until I am 3-5f above my primary temp.

- stay there 5-14 days of "clean up" depending on the strain before cooling down to prep for conditioning.

I got burned by Notty with this. Well, burned is not the right word, but the results were not what I was shooting for. I did a "British-ized" version of JZs Amber. I used US hops and MO as my base. Then split the batch. Half got WLP007. The other got Notty.

I fermented at 66f for about 3 days. Things were starting to slow the morning of day 4 so I ramped to around 69-70 over a couple of days. The 007 was outstanding. The Notty was good, but definitely more estery than I was targeting

 

[gbx]

Thanks. For this next batch I will use Notty, as I have it on order; we will see after that. I had a Brown Ale my brother-in-law made at a U-brew with a Festa Brew kit using Nottingham and it was estery; quite nice actually. I understand that the U-Brew fermented at 68-70F and that they bottled at the 10 day point. I am thinking of doing the same thing, but bottling on day 8, depending on how the hydro sample tastes.

Am I right in thinking that one should not cold crashing in the primary before bottling, as I supposed you need to keep some yeast in suspension for bottling purposes? What about cold crashing in the bottles, after some initial time at 18-20C, to give the yeast time to ferment the priming sugar; how short a time at room temp could I get away with? Three days? Five days? Seven days? I am hoping that cold crashing the bottles would prevent the yeast from cleaning up the esters too much in the bottle. Thanks again.

Nottingham doesn't taste bad. Anytime I've used it the beer has been fine just not awesome. I've done split batches and repeated recipes and always found that the flavours were more muted with the Notty - the crystal malt wasn't as prominent and the late hop additions seemed like they were half of what they actually were. But this could all be a function of pitch rate - definitely with split 2.5g batches but maybe the full pack is way too big for even a 5g batch. Its a hard yeast to get any good information on (as indepth as this thread) as most people who use it are either beginners or live in places were liquid yeast isn't available so there experience with a variety of strains is limited.

 

[progmac]

this thread has been an inspiration to me, so i thought i'd share a current batch that i'm working on.

the beer is basically 10% Crystal 60, 7% sugar, and with the balance an english pale malt. i'm going for a complex ester profile, a little bit of diacetyl, and a nice rounded malt character.

here was my strategy:
- intentionally underpitch WL 007 (pitched one vial in 1.050 wort), provide plenty of pure oxygen to the wort
- ferment at 64 until krausen starts to fall
- bring to 68 when krausen starts to fall
- draw sample at this point and put sample on warmed stir plate to determine FG
- let ride at 68 for maybe 18-24 horus
- bring down to 64 for remainder of fermentation
- bottle w/out priming sugar 2-3 points before reaching FG

i bottled last night. once i brought the temp down to 64 fermentation slowed almost to a halt. it took 4 or 5 days to go from 1.018 to 1.015. once it hit 1.015, i bottled with no priming sugar. i'm planning on diacetyl reduction and some maturation in the bottle and then i'll put them all in the fridge when it tastes how i want it to.

 

[Riot]

Wow, I have never seen anything quite like 1768 on a stirplate. Should I try to reign it in before final gravity? I'm trying to get close, while avoiding the bottle carving issues of 1968, I don't have kegs.

 

[progmac]

Wow, I have never seen anything quite like 1768 on a stirplate. Should I try to reign it in before final gravity? I'm trying to get close, while avoiding the bottle carving issues of 1968, I don't have kegs.

you might draw off a sample while it is fermenting and put it on your stirplate. then you can at least know your FG so you aren't flying blind

 

[Riot]

I didn't draw a sample for that, but I think I'm going to start soone. I'm gonna repitch from this batch at least once and I'm interested in trying to carb without priming sugar. So far I've held it at about 65, it was barely active this morning, completely covered in krausen now.

 

[progmac]

this thread has been an inspiration to me, so i thought i'd share a current batch that i'm working on.

the beer is basically 10% Crystal 60, 7% sugar, and with the balance an english pale malt. i'm going for a complex ester profile, a little bit of diacetyl, and a nice rounded malt character.

here was my strategy:
- intentionally underpitch WL 007 (pitched one vial in 1.050 wort), provide plenty of pure oxygen to the wort
- ferment at 64 until krausen starts to fall
- bring to 68 when krausen starts to fall
- draw sample at this point and put sample on warmed stir plate to determine FG
- let ride at 68 for maybe 18-24 horus
- bring down to 64 for remainder of fermentation
- bottle w/out priming sugar 2-3 points before reaching FG

i bottled last night. once i brought the temp down to 64 fermentation slowed almost to a halt. it took 4 or 5 days to go from 1.018 to 1.015. once it hit 1.015, i bottled with no priming sugar. i'm planning on diacetyl reduction and some maturation in the bottle and then i'll put them all in the fridge when it tastes how i want it to.

i cracked one tonight, 18 days after brewday and 6 days after bottling. drank at room temperature.

WOW

thank you for all the advice in this thread. i've found the authentic british ale that i'm looking for. i have never tasted anything from an american brewery like what i just drank.

i'm going to tuck the rest away in my freezer and hope they don't change.

 

[troglodytes]

How was the body/mouthfeel/carbing?

I'm about to do a loose interpretation of FW Woookey Jack ad would be interested in the no priming sugar bottle method, but I'd be so scared of either bottle bombs or no carb. How did you know the right gravity to bottle at?

 

[progmac]

How was the body/mouthfeel/carbing?

I'm about to do a loose interpretation of FW Woookey Jack ad would be interested in the no priming sugar bottle method, but I'd be so scared of either bottle bombs or no carb. How did you know the right gravity to bottle at?

it is a balancing act, and those outcomes (bombs or no carb) concern me too

i bottled 2-3 gravity points above final gravity. after six days, the carb level is perfect for a bitter but very low for any other style. after another week or two, i would expect the carb level to double at least. 2-3 gravity points is similar to the gravity contribution of four ounces of sugar in a 5 gallon batch, which gives 'normal carb' in the 2.5vols range.

if you're going to try bottling w/out priming sugar, you have to draw off a sample of the wort (i put it in a beer bottle) while it is fermenting and then put it somewhere very warm and/or on a stirplate. then wait about 48 hours and read the gravity when you are convinced it is done fermenting. that gives you the expected final gravity. then you bottle your main batch 1-3 points above that.

this 1-3 points above final gravity zone is very difficult to catch in 'normal' fermentations. but if you follow the 64-68-64 strategy in this thread, you'll notice that activity slows down dramatically after you lower the temp back to 64. you should be able to catch the beer 1-3 points above FG.

regarding body/mouthfeel, this is the first english beer i've made with the malty smooth feel that i really want.

 

[flatsix]

Question: do you think bottling with a bit of LME could achieve the same effect?

it is a balancing act, and those outcomes (bombs or no carb) concern me too

i bottled 2-3 gravity points above final gravity. after six days, the carb level is perfect for a bitter but very low for any other style. after another week or two, i would expect the carb level to double at least. 2-3 gravity points is similar to the gravity contribution of four ounces of sugar in a 5 gallon batch, which gives 'normal carb' in the 2.5vols range.

if you're going to try bottling w/out priming sugar, you have to draw off a sample of the wort (i put it in a beer bottle) while it is fermenting and then put it somewhere very warm and/or on a stirplate. then wait about 48 hours and read the gravity when you are convinced it is done fermenting. that gives you the expected final gravity. then you bottle your main batch 1-3 points above that.

this 1-3 points above final gravity zone is very difficult to catch in 'normal' fermentations. but if you follow the 64-68-64 strategy in this thread, you'll notice that activity slows down dramatically after you lower the temp back to 64. you should be able to catch the beer 1-3 points above FG.

regarding body/mouthfeel, this is the first english beer i've made with the malty smooth feel that i really want.

 

[progmac]

Question: do you think bottling with a bit of LME could achieve the same effect?

bottling with LME would be the same as bottling with sugar, except that LME is a little bit less fermentable. make sure that the beer is done fermenting if you bottle with LME

 

[Beernip]

bottling with LME would be the same as bottling with sugar, except that LME is a little bit less fermentable. make sure that the beer is done fermenting if you bottle with LME

I don't think this would be true. Yeast will create different off-flavors depending on if it is eating maltose (LME) or sucrose (table sugar).

 

[progmac]

I don't think this would be true. Yeast will create different off-flavors depending on if it is eating maltose (LME) or sucrose (table sugar).

i've primed with table sugar, corn sugar, honey, DME, and LME; while the volumes are different because each has different fermantability I can't tell any difference in the end product.

 

[flatsix]

i've primed with table sugar, corn sugar, honey, DME, and LME; while the volumes are different because each has different fermantability I can't tell any difference in the end product.

Even with these finneky English yeasts? My hypothesis is that the off flavors encountered post-bottling are the result of these strains responding negatively to simple sugars? Perhaps if bottling with more complex sugars (LME/DME), the off flavors can be avoided?

 

[progmac]

Even with these finneky English yeasts? My hypothesis is that the off flavors encountered post-bottling are the result of these strains responding negatively to simple sugars? Perhaps if bottling with more complex sugars (LME/DME), the off flavors can be avoided?

could be. you should test your hypothesis! bottle 2.5 gallons at a time with different priming agents.

 

[terrapinj]

i've used 1968 with recipes that had a good portion simple sugars in the recipe (turbinado in one and honey in another) with no off flavors

it's such a small amount used for priming I doubt you'd notice any significant differences

 

[Arrheinous]

i've used 1968 with recipes that had a good portion simple sugars in the recipe (turbinado in one and honey in another) with no off flavors

it's such a small amount used for priming I doubt you'd notice any significant differences

I've got a bitter on tap now that used WLP005 with 8# MO, 1# Crystal 60, and 1# turbinado (1.060). That's 10% simple sugar. One week at 65, one at 68, one at 65. It came out quite awesome.

Has anyone tried out the Barbados sugars (muscovado)? I can get light or dark for $7/# but I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

[403Brewer]

So I've purchased the 1968 yeast before reading this thread and now I'm just considering chucking it as I'm not sure I can pull this off having to stick with bottles as I don't have a keg set up...I haven't read the whole 57 pages but is there any hope of bottle conditioning this with half decent results? I can control the ferm temps, sounds like best success is to cut fermentation a bit early but plain sugars and this yeast don't like each other. Recipe was going to be the 80% MO and 20% Crystal (with EKG hops) , with 3/4 cup corn sugar for priming.

Any thoughts or help is much appreciated