British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[jmo88]

Just finished reading through this thread.

Thanks for all the ideas, opinions and experiences.

With all the talk of WLP002 and WY1968 off-flavor, does anyone have experience with bottle conditioning after a US04 fermentation? It's my understnading that all three of these strains are similar or the same. And I only bottle condition...

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

 

[ayoungrad]

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

Oh. Good to know. Thanks. I haven't used it yet and was considering doing a dry yeast batch coming up. But with that info I'll have to think about it. From earlier posts it sounds like not everyone likes the flavor profile of 1099 and the like.

 

[trigger]

I did a 10 gallon split batch using this "new to me" ferment temp profile.
15 lbs. Simpson's Golden Promise
12 oz. Simpsons's medium crystal
8 oz. Simpson's extra dark crystal
1.25 oz Chinook 60
1 oz Chinook 15
1 oz Mt. Hood 15
1 oz Chinook 5
1 oz Mt. Hood 5

I chilled in the kettle to 62, then drained to two 5 gallon buckets and pitched one with 1 cup of harvested 1469 and the other with 1 cup of harvested 1318. I let them free rise to 68 (took about 2 days). The 1469 was done in 4 days (F.G. of 1.015) and the 1318 took 7 to reach the same F.G. I put them into my chest freezer at 36 as soon as they were at 1.015 ( I guess they may have gone lower, but they tasted perfect at that gravity) until I had kegs ready for them.

They are both rediculously Brittish. I used to love 1469 because it was "more Brittish" than the others I'd tried. After reading this thread I was expecting a change of heart, but having tried them back to back I much prefer the 1469. It is slightly bready, with lots of light fruit and a touch of diacetal. The crystal malts seem to have blended quite nicely in this batch. The 1318 on the other hand has a less complex nose (mostly sweet, flowers) and a thinner body to it. The flavor is more dark fruit, but I can really taste the dark crystal in this one, and it has a tart finish that makes it less fun to drink.

I don't know, maybe I just don't have proper palette for true Brittish beers, but for me the 1469 is the clear winner in this test.

 

[bierhaus15]

The 1318 on the other hand has a less complex nose (mostly sweet, flowers) and a thinner body to it. The flavor is more dark fruit, but I can really taste the dark crystal in this one, and it has a tart finish that makes it less fun to drink.

I never really got much "tartness" from 1318, though I do find I like the flavor better after it's been in the keg for a week or so. It does let the darker crystal malts come through though, and it makes a wonderful mild.

Also, I wish I had saved some 1469 slurry. Brewed with it a lot for a few months and then had a some problems with it refusing to flocculate. Could have been bad yeast, though it is the most "English" of yeast strains out there IMO.

 

[14thstreet]

I wish I had saved some 1469 slurry...it is the most "English" of yeast strains out there IMO.

What qualifies this statement? I'm about to use this strain for the first time on a TTL-esque bitter. I've used only 2 other strains, 1968 and 1882 (Thames Valley II) and feel I haven't used those to push "English" characters out of them. Meaning, 1968 probably has been fermented in the mid to low 60F in two different styles and 1882 was fermented 68F but in "hoppy" eIPAs with gypsum added so any yeast character may be covered up. Again, I respect that without side-by-side comparisons it is difficult for me to come up with yeast-specific contributions.

I enjoy your blog and have just finished bottling up two IPAs with homemade invert sugar (targeted No1 but ended up No2).

 

[bierhaus15]

What qualifies this statement? I'm about to use this strain for the first time on a TTL-esque bitter.

I have found it to produce a lot more complex esters/flavors than most other English strains out there. Lots of stone fruit, slight diacetyl - which I like - and it does let the malt come through nicely. Never did a side-by-side with this yeast, though this yeast has an unique flavor profile.

I'll be making an American IPA with No. 1 invert here in a few weeks. Something along the lines of Ithaca's Flower Power. Should be good.

 

[BioBeing]

I've been reading this, and lots of good info guys. Thanks! I brewed 10 gallons of a best bitter on Saturday and split it into two - Wyeast 1469 in one bucket, and WLP 023 in the other. I'm trying the 64-68-64 fermentation profile too.

I also used Bramling Cross for bittering for the first time (along with some Northern brewer) so I'm interested to see if they add some currant notes too.

ETA - it also had a pound or so of my homemade invert #2. First time for that too.

 

[russbaker]

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

So s-04, not s-05? I only ask because every other post in this thread regarding alternative bottling yeast to 002 has referred to s-05 I think.

I'm doing a Rye IPA this weekend using 002 and plan to cold crash the 002 out of it as much as possible and supplement with a dry yeast for carbing.

I am using the 64-68-crash schedule, although, Im a little concerned about dry hopping at such cold temps. Any idea whether dry hopping is as effective at lower temps or is there an alternative method to get similar result?

 

[bierhaus15]

Sad to see this thread disappear for a bit, though is anyone else going to be brewing a bitter with this wonderful yeast? Should be around until September, it makes one tasty pint!

Wyeast 1768-PC English Special Bitter Yeast

 

[HOPCousin]

I'll be doing my first bitter and this thread has given me beer for thought. My LHBS had wlp 002 for ESb yeast so thta is what I'll be working with. My cellar temps are 70 and 78. One room i keep closed in the corner for fermenting nad the main room is warmer. It sounds like the 60's mainly where I'll want to stay from what I've read. can probabaly get it closer to 68. is it worth starting there nad then moving into the main room for a day or two to bring the temps up? has anyone worked with this yeast?
My grain bill is
85% MO
6% Victory
6% Carared ( what I had on hand)
3% C120L

 

[bierhaus15]

Cooler temps are better with wlp002/1968 than higher ones. Ideally, you want to pitch cool around 63-64F and slowly let the ferment temp rise up to 68F over the course of a few days before a D-rest and crash cool. A basic tub with some water and frozen water bottles is an easy way to help regulate your temps if you don't have a fermentation chest. I would not want to go much higher than 70F with this yeast for the first three days of fermentation.

 

[Randar]

Finally got around to posting the winning and runner-up recipe and details. I plan to do another side-by-side tasting here soon and will post my updated tasting notes at that time.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/4-...brew-off-winner-runner-up-257082/#post3089291

 

[14thstreet]

Take a look back on the posts about wy1968 and the related problems when bottle carbing with it. I find it is better to keg 1968/wlp002 beer than risk it in the bottle. I am still waiting for a response from the yeast lab I emailed.

Have you heard back or gained any more experience on this matter?

I did a series of 4 IPAs with Wyeast 1882 Thames Valley II and a batch of bitter with Wyeast 1469 and feel both have gone bad in the bottle, when at first tasted great. I attribute some of this to some extra unexpected carbonation after I thought I reached FG. Seems as if these strains need a few more points pushing at the end, despite some of them having sugar in the recipe. I'm not keen on bottle-conditioning anymore with english strains though I can't say I've brewed enough with 1968/002 to remember if I had the same problems.

 

[jmo88]

Back in May I emailed wyeast and got a response from Jess. While she was really fast and helpful, it's about the response I expected. Certainly a experiment like she suggested is in order, and until then we can only speculate about the infection and corn sugar effects. I'd like to know too if Bierhaus got any other info. Here it is:

"Has anyone tried a couple test bottles w/o priming the bottles? I'm curious if terminal gravity is not being reached in the primary due to the high flocculating characteristics of 1968. The bottling process obviously will rouse yeast and possibly add a slight amount of O2. This would allow the yeast to further ferment any fermentable sugars left in the beer.

Basically, I wonder if you are getting a false terminal gravity reading. When you keg it, it gets immediately cooled and force carbonated, which would inhibit any further fermentation in the keg, vs the treatment of bottles that are stored for another week or two at fermentation temp.

I think you can rule out the infection theory, as if there was an infection, you should be able to note some off flavors or aromas other than over-attenuation/dryness."

 

[bierhaus15]

Have you heard back or gained any more experience on this matter?

I did a series of 4 IPAs with Wyeast 1882 Thames Valley II and a batch of bitter with Wyeast 1469 and feel both have gone bad in the bottle, when at first tasted great. I attribute some of this to some extra unexpected carbonation after I thought I reached FG. Seems as if these strains need a few more points pushing at the end, despite some of them having sugar in the recipe. I'm not keen on bottle-conditioning anymore with english strains though I can't say I've brewed enough with 1968/002 to remember if I had the same problems.

Got one response back... they didn't answer my specific questions and reiterated what I already knew: Basically, some yeasts are prone to infection and highly flocculating yeasts can have issues with bottle conditioning. With that said, I think the problem(s) of over carbonation and off flavors in the bottle is due to some type of minor infection. At first I suspected the yeast were 'reactivating' with a sugar addition and causing the beer to over carbonate. However, if this was so, I don't think it would result in such a noticeable change in flavor. I've had a few of batches of Belgian beer over carbonate a bit too much - due to bottling too soon (saison) - though the resulting flavor profile was always fine.

Until I learn what the real problem is, I'll stick to kegging my English style beers. I have not had any problems since I started kegging and honestly, I think the beer stays fresher in the keg than the bottle. Lastly, I do have a half sized firkin/cask that I use on occasion and I have not had problems with that either, even when adding priming sugar. Sorry to hear about your beer going bad... it's always a bummer when that happens!

Edit: Thanks for emailing Wyeast, jmo88 - it is basically the same response I got from the UK yeast lab I emailed. Moving forward, I think the first thing we should determine is what type of problem are people experiencing with these English yeasts and bottling - over carbonation with no off flavors, or over carbonation and off flavors.

 

[rockfish42]

I'm not really buying the infection idea, I've bottled repeatedly with wlp002 but the bottles conditioned at ~60 degrees and retained their ester profile. Sadly now that I don't live 200 feet from the Pacific Ocean in a fog bank I don't think I'll be bottling my english beers.

 

[loctones]

I've found this thread very interesting, so I thought I would try a similar process. The last cask ale I had in England was almost 10 years ago, now, so I probably can't say how accurate my results are. It'll still be a fun experiment.

On Sunday, I brewed a bitter using Bob's 80/10/10 rule of thumb:
80% Crisp MO
10% Turbinado
6% Crisp C45
4% Great Western C120
49g EKG @ 60
28g EKG @ 1
1L starter of 1318

Mashed at 152 for 60 min and pitched yeast at 62. I raised the temperature to 68 over 10 hours and held it there. Tonight I measured the gravity and found the gravity at 1.020. I intended to follow the Fullers fermentation profile and drop the temperature back to 64 halfway to the final gravity, but I missed it. So, the temperature is at 64 now, and I'm going to check it again tomorrow night and drop the temperature to 43 if it's beyond 4/5 of the expected attenuation.

The gravity sample tasted nice, so I'm excited about how this will turn out. I'll report back when the first beers have been poured.

 

[rjwhite41]

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that so many people look at how one brewer uses their house yeast and thinks it will work with all yeasts for a certain style. Wouldn't the better route be to grab one yeast, figure out what you want from it and figure out how to get it through experimentation on your system. I'm not saying the system is wrong but I highly doubt it is universal across all systems with a variety of yeasts. Just my 2 cents. Great info in this thread though, thanks!

 

[jmo88]

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that so many people look at how one brewer uses their house yeast and thinks it will work with all yeasts for a certain style. Wouldn't the better route be to grab one yeast, figure out what you want from it and figure out how to get it through experimentation on your system. I'm not saying the system is wrong but I highly doubt it is universal across all systems with a variety of yeasts. Just my 2 cents. Great info in this thread though, thanks!

Yeah, it's weird when you put it that way. But you said it yourself, you should look at a yeast and figure out what you want from it. I think the key is that dropping the temp preserves characters that would otherwise clean up. If I am making an English ale, regardless of strain, I want to retain that English yeast character. The reason Fuller's fermentation profile is being sought after is because of the obvious English yeast character in their beers. Many homebrewed beers lack this character with English yeast strains because they clean up too much. Their fermentation regimen is a good place to start, even with other strains.

If anything, this fermentation technique has encouraged homebrewers to be comfortable with dropping their temp before fermentation is finished. Before this knowledge, I think many homebrewers would have been dissuaded by people on this board or even people like Jamil to drop their fermentation temps before terminal gravity instead of stable temps or upward rising temps.

 

[ayoungrad]

It has been a little while since I read through this whole thread, so please excuse me if this has already been addressed repeatedly.

But if the idea is to follow a regimen of cold crashing before reaching FG, does this regimen imply that you cannot bottle carbonate the beer? My first thought is that I would be concerned about bottle bombs if I bottle before FG is reached and then add priming sugar.

 

[bierhaus15]

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that so many people look at how one brewer uses their house yeast and thinks it will work with all yeasts for a certain style. Wouldn't the better route be to grab one yeast, figure out what you want from it and figure out how to get it through experimentation on your system. I'm not saying the system is wrong but I highly doubt it is universal across all systems with a variety of yeasts. Just my 2 cents. Great info in this thread though, thanks!

Not all yeasts behave the same under similar conditions. Experimentation is necessary to find out how a certain yeast is going to perform in your homebrewery, just as a commerical brewer would do the same. However, considering the various fermentation schedules floating around here, most of these do very well for a few specific yeasts... wy1968, 1318, 1882, and 1187 in my case. I have been told whitbread strains and 1275 don't do so well, though I don't use those strains. You will note that almost all of the strains that consistently work well with the Fullers fermentation schedule are both highly flocculating and produce a lot of esters. See what works well for you.

But if the idea is to follow a regimen of cold crashing before reaching FG, does this regimen imply that you cannot bottle carbonate the beer? My first thought is that I would be concerned about bottle bombs if I bottle before FG is reached and then add priming sugar.

You don't have to follow their fermentation schedule exactly like they do to get a similar result. The main thing that we follow from their process is the controlled fermentation followed by a crash cool after a relatively short fermentation, as to preserve the malt/ester profile. If your going to be bottling, I would not crash cool before your final gravity was reached.

 

[KingBrianI]

Has anyone seen where Austin Homebrew has now started carrying a new English Ale dry yeast, Sterling 514? Anyone heard of or used it? A quick google search didn't turn up much. Looks like maybe it has an Australian origin? Anyway, the high attenuation and flocculation make it look appealing, and it would be nice to have a good English dry yeast option. If it really does attenuate well and produces nice flavors it would definitely make it into my rotation. I'm thinking about picking some up to try it out.

 

[rockfish42]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10768
http://www.maurivin.com/upload/mauribrew Ale 514.pdf
Sounds like it'd be fun to compare to s-04

 

[tesilential]

So months ago I brewed an excellent Fuller's london porter clone that tasted SPOT ON at bottling time with a FG of 1.018 after 2.5 weeks fermentation.

Two weeks later I crack one open to find that perfect silky mouthfeel gone and replaced by a thinner ****tier beer. I was disappointed but after a couple weeks conditioning the porter was great and was enjoyed by many.

I saved a couple and cracked one open and took a gravity reading now after 6 months and was surprised to see it had dropped from 1.018 to 1.014!

That explains the thinner body. I suspect the yeast woke up when I batch primed and attenuated my brew further.

I pitched a batch of the same recipe yesterday with the washed yeast from the original batch. I plan to ferment 64* for 4 days and then ramp up to 68* until gravity stabilizes then crash out the yeast and keg it.

I'll report back.

EDIT: forgot to mention this is wyeast 1968

 

[Dr. Francois]

I've really enjoyed this thread.

I have a quick question about how to avoid post-racking renewed fermentation.

I've worked on this recipe:

80% MO
10% Oat Malt (or Turbinado or more MO, depending on your advice)
7% Dark Crystal
3% Light Crystal

hop to appx. 30 total IBU with Perle/NB to bitter, EKG to finish (15 min), and very lightly dry hop with EKG in cask.

Mash 1qt/lb at 154F, mash out with 1 gallon, batch sparge to volume.

OG 1.034

S-04 yeast @ 64 ambient temp for 4-5 days.

Here's where my question comes in:

When fermentation stalls out (typically a bit higher than FG due to high flocculation), I want to avoid that second drop in FG (from 1.016 to 1.014, for instance. Based on advice in this discussion, a cold crash does a lovely job of preserving the malt-forward flavor.

Would I need to cold crash before I transfer to the keg? I'm worried that in the time it takes for the transferred beer to cool in the keg to fridge temps, the renewed fermentation would have a chance to work and lower the FG. I have limited refrigerator space, so cold crashing in the primary isn't an option unless it is really cold outside.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[bierhaus15]

So long as you are force carbonating this beer, aka c02, you should have no issues racking into a keg and then chilling. Most of the problems only arise when you are bottling or warm conditioning a beer - such as racking the beer into a bottling bucket, adding sugar, and then putting into bottles. All that oxygen is going to restart a fermentation at warm temps.

I like to cold crash in primary before I keg, both to get the beer as clear as possible and to set the malt profile. Once the beer gets into the keg at a cold temp, I've never had it drop gravity points. Also, s-04 isn't known to restart fermentation, like 1968/002 and some of the other highly flocculant yeasts.

Lastly, your recipe looks fine, (gravity is on the low end) though I would probably drop the oat malt for the sugar or brewers invert. So long as you're using a quality MO, you'll have plenty of malt character. Be sure to keep your ferment temps below 68F with s-04. Once that stuff gets around 70F you'll get some nasty esters. Good luck!

 

[Dr. Francois]

Thanks for your response, Bierhaus.

I'm worried that S-04 will attenuate too much and chew up all of my malty goodness in the process.

Thus, I'm heavily considering making this Ordinary Bitter my first venture away from dry yeast. It is a style that seems to really benefit from yeast selection, and I'm saving so much money on other ingredients (little malt, few hops) that I might want to splurge a bit on my yeast.

 

[chapa]

Thanks for your response, Bierhaus.

I'm worried that S-04 will attenuate too much and chew up all of my malty goodness in the process.

Thus, I'm heavily considering making this Ordinary Bitter my first venture away from dry yeast. It is a style that seems to really benefit from yeast selection, and I'm saving so much money on other ingredients (little malt, few hops) that I might want to splurge a bit on my yeast.

Thats a great idea, as long as you can control ferm temps. English and Belgian beers deserve quality liquid yeast..you'll be glad you did!

 

[jfr1111]

I personally like S-04 and drier beers, but switching to another strain might be advisable if you want a higher FG. It is a more attenuative choice than most traditional English strains.

 

[Grousebane]

I've been interested in temp. and its effect on fermentation for the last few batches, so this thread has been enlightening (to say the least). I've been reading in other threads that the fermentation process can raise the temp by as much as 10 degrees over ambient. This has led me to wonder how people are measuring the temp of the brew? Or are we talking about controling ambient at 64-68-64-drest-coldcrash?

my current batches (octfest 2633 and scottish 1728) i have run at an ambient 58. but those are off the topic of english ESBs etc.