DuncB
Well-Known Member
I just use my 70 litre all in one for 20 litres and up batches.
Sold the robobrew 35 ages ago.
Sold the robobrew 35 ages ago.
Hey Jdub, I re-read you response while I was brewing my ESB today and had a followup question. Why do you suggest waiting 15 minutes after dough-in to turn the pump on? I usually circulate the pump during the entire mash from start to finish, as soon as I have the grain and water mixed together. What is your reasoning?Good input, thanks! I am glad I didn't have to figure out the need to slowly raise the malt pipe so it does not spray out of the side holes! I sent MoreBeer a note and they confirmed that the unit does NOT come with the HED so I ordered it today (by the way, MoreBeer has a site wide 15% off flash sale til midnight west coast time).
There are some claims that letting the bed naturally settle helps avoid compaction. I've been trying it out and haven't seen significant effects, but can't rule it out entirely. It may depend on pump strength or something.Hey Jdub, I re-read you response while I was brewing my ESB today and had a followup question. Why do you suggest waiting 15 minutes after dough-in to turn the pump on? I usually circulate the pump during the entire mash from start to finish, as soon as I have the grain and water mixed together. What is your reasoning?
My reasoning is mashdar's response. With more details addedHey Jdub, I re-read you response while I was brewing my ESB today and had a followup question. Why do you suggest waiting 15 minutes after dough-in to turn the pump on? I usually circulate the pump during the entire mash from start to finish, as soon as I have the grain and water mixed together. What is your reasoning?
I never have ruled it out. I always recirculated the whole time on my grainfather and started to have stuck mashes and lots of issues immediately on my brewzilla. I changed a bunch of stuff based off many recommendations on here and have not had any stuck mashes except a beer which had a huuuuge adjunct percentage (50%) and probably not nearly enough rice hulls. I do not use rice hulls anymore unless there's adjuncts or grains known to cause stuck mashes.There are some claims that letting the bed naturally settle helps avoid compaction. I've been trying it out and haven't seen significant effects, but can't rule it out entirely. It may depend on pump strength or something.
'my craft beer maker in Brazil. I have a Brewzilla 35 lt gen 4. Checking the pot profile in version 2 of BrewFather, the dead space value is 0.Should I consider this value? ...due to the central hole?
View attachment 868700
I can't speak Portuguese, but here are my settings on my 35L gen 4 with 220V. It's almost fully dialed in, but sometimes my volume is off when the boil is more or less vigorous. Sorry it's not converted to liters.
duplicated answer....thanks
To overexplain, the deadspace is there when mashing because the malt pipe keeps the grains lifted up off the bottom. So there is approximately 2.65L/0.7gal underneath the malt pipe. They use that to calculate the mash thickness so you can get it correct. For example, if you wanted a ~3L/kg mash thickness and had 5kg of grain, your math would be:
(3L/kg * 5kg) + 2.65L = 17.65L water.
Not sure what you use for mash thickness, but the 2.65L is underneath the malt pipe so the program needs to know what that deadspace is to get the thickness correct in the malt pipe.
FWIW - I like a mash thickness of 1.625qt/lb or approximately 3.4L/kg in my gen4. I crush the grains to credit card thickness (0.030" or 0.75mm) for reference. Your results may vary.
thanks for the explanations... I use the ratio of 4 liters of water / kg of grains... type BIAB... TOTAL water... no sparging... I use all the water in the pan... in the total water bill... and I don't lose anything due to the central hole in the pan... so I consider the loss under the grain basket to be 0To overexplain, the deadspace is there when mashing because the malt pipe keeps the grains lifted up off the bottom. So there is approximately 2.65L/0.7gal underneath the malt pipe. They use that to calculate the mash thickness so you can get it correct. For example, if you wanted a ~3L/kg mash thickness and had 5kg of grain, your math would be:
(3L/kg * 5kg) + 2.65L = 17.65L water.
Not sure what you use for mash thickness, but the 2.65L is underneath the malt pipe so the program needs to know what that deadspace is to get the thickness correct in the malt pipe.
FWIW - I like a mash thickness of 1.625qt/lb or approximately 3.4L/kg in my gen4. I crush the grains to credit card thickness (0.030" or 0.75mm) for reference. Your results may vary.
Ah, so you don't use the malt pipe or the false bottom? Any reason why?thanks for the explanations... I use the ratio of 4 liters of water / kg of grains... type BIAB... TOTAL water... no sparging... I use all the water in the pan... in the total water bill... and I don't lose anything due to the central hole in the pan... so I consider the loss under the grain basket to be 0
I use the grain bag inside the malt tube...I don't use a false bottom...I had problems with the tap clogging due to the malt grains passing through the false bottom...the central drain is very bad, this systemAh, so you don't use the malt pipe or the false bottom? Any reason why?
Interesting. I have never had an issue once when using the malt pipe (with the bottom) and the false bottom. I take that back, I did have an issue once, but it was user error.I use the grain bag inside the malt tube...I don't use a false bottom...I had problems with the tap clogging due to the malt grains passing through the false bottom...the central drain is very bad, this system
@jdubdvdt - different topic - I saw one of your posts a few pages ago regarding an imperial sparge arm? Sparging with this system is by far my least favourite part and i'm desperate to get on top of it. After a solid stir during mash out, I slowly lift the grains half way, let it drain, then begin my sparge by simply pouring a bucket as best and evenly as I can - its very inconsistent at the best of times and general just a pour and hope. My mash efficiency really isn't too bad (72-75%), but I want to increase it. Do you reckon I could use a sparge arm for both recirculating during mash + for sparging (connected to a separate pump/vessel with sparge water)? The silicone hose + top screen (which I never use due to compression) are a huge downfall in my eyes and it's super frustrating having to reposition it every few minutes during the mash to avoid channeling.
Cheers!
This sparge head only works for sparging. When used for mashing it clogs easily and it is difficult to unclog. Since I mash full volume, my sparge head now sits in my unused gear pile. It is also advertised for aerating during transfer to your fermentor, but not something that I've tried. I'd be worried about clogging there as well. It was cheap enough to tack onto an order, but I probably wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't somehow missed this posting from 2023 in this thread:I think Kegland sells a shower head for the purposes of what you are looking for. The Kegland Sergeant Sparge Head. I have not used it, but I would definitely consider it for during the recirculating mash.
The Seargant Sparge Head is no good.ine little piece of grain or ricehuls will block the fout tiny holes in the Sparge Head. A flawed design if uou want to use it while mashing.
It only works while sparging.
Thanks for the comprehensive breakdown of your process! This is pretty much exactly as I did for the first few batches until I found the top plate was compressing the grain bed down, and I was left with either a stuck mash or stuck sparge almost every time. I was still getting 'ok' efficiency but it meant lots of babysitting and annoyances throughout the entire mash, which is precious free time wasted. One thing I do like about the top plate is the hole for the probe. Just to add, I don't use rice hulls (widely available from source, I just don't trust the cleanliness in this climate)@Spetz I don't have any experience with as much hops as you describe, so nothing very useful to contribute. Other than you comment about moving the chiller up and down. If you leave recirculation arm running during chill, that should do the same as bouncing your chiller, without having to babysit.
As for sparge, I do as you describe for the most part, but I've always used the top plate. After I add grains at mash in, I stir slowly for a few minutes to ensure I've got everything mixed well, no dough balls, then I put on the top plate (and BT thermometer through the middle hole) and let the recirc hose rest on there. No mash stirring. When mash is done, I lift basket and set on first set of feet for a few seconds, then to the bottom feet. I leave the top plate on and pour sparge water 0.5-1 gallon at a time from my pitcher and just let gravity run it through while I'm heating the wort to a boil.
I get 80-89% mash efficiency and I'm always impressed with that. I don't have problems with the grain bed getting compacted and preventing sparge water from passing through, and I get good efficiency. For me, there are no negatives with using the top plate.
@jdubdvdt thank you also for your breakdown! Firstly yes, total BS about the lack of feet in the middle...as a little side note, when I took delivery of my BZ and tested it for the first time, the pump clogged and started making the most horrendous dystopian grating/moaning sound i've ever heard in a brewing environment. You could have sampled it and put it in the next Blade Runner movie. No wort/grain/anything running through it, just water. I took the pump apart and found small shards and shavings of metal inside it, all magnetically stuck to the impeller. Turns out they were from the machining of the feet on the malt pipe! Spent a few hours with some tweezers picking off parts of (very, very sharp) metal between the weld of the feet. The middle row of feet was the worst - perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not...I haven't had much issues, but I have only recently started making "hoppier" offerings. The most I have put in the kettle during boil/flameout/whirlpool is about 0.75/oz per gallon or roughly 22g/liter.
I think Kegland sells a shower head for the purposes of what you are looking for. The Kegland Sergeant Sparge Head. I have not used it, but I would definitely consider it for during the recirculating mash. I don't know if the imperial sparge arm is worthwhile and honestly doesn't fit perfectly on my 35L.
View attachment 868823
This photo I took from the internet and I have not read much on it, but it is cheaper than the imperial sparge arm and easily plugs into the existing hose of the brewzilla.
For the imperial sparge arm - I only used it for sparging. I did that for a bit and it really was nice to use with my old grainfather as a HLT, but I stopped using it to try to reduce things to cleanup and pull out for brewday. My process was to mash out, raise the malt pipe slowly, attach silicon tubing to the sparge arm from the pump of the grainfather, and then choke the pump down to prevent it from sparging too fast. It was great and hands free, but I felt like I was overhandling and wanted to simpify things. Originally I was going to raise the pipe and do a true vorlauf, but that also sounds like overhandling. I have two young kids at home and anything I can do to keep my hobby must be done.
I currently am just heating sparge water on my gas stove with two different stock pots and then pour over manually. It is easier to clean and dry a pot than my grainfather and a sparge arm. I don't use the top plate either since I stir every 15-30 minutes. My current process is to stir the grains one last time, raise the temp to mash out around 168-170, turn off the pump about 5 minutes after reaches the target temperature, then wait another 5-10minutes before puling the malt pipe. Slowly pull the malt pipe up (I only have one set of feet on my gen4 in the US, BS). Let the runnings pull through a bit until I can see a "dry" grainbed and then slowly pour about a half gallon to a gallon, 2-3x (waiting 5-10 minutes between each pourover) and I have been getting 80% brewhouse efficiency.
I am considering adding 1-2 gallons of water while raising the temp to mash out, stir it up, turn off the pump, wait 5-10 minutes and then raise the malt pipe. Then I am hoping I can have less time sparging.
I was unaware of all the issues people were having with the sargeant sparge head. Glad I know that now. A CPVC manifold would work well. The top plate probably will work fine and maybe that is the cause of my grain compaction issues (not using the top plate). I like stirring, but I came from a 3 vessel system before the grainfather and it is part of my process that I can't break, yet. Definitely don't get too crazy with stirring, my previously mentioned mishap with a clogged pump actually came from overstirring while doughing in and the screen tilted up letting grain get underneath the malt pipe. I didn't know until the boil was over. I had been trying to figure out why my efficiency was so good, but the volume was displaced and off. Luckily it was a dunkelweizen and there was plenty of malt flavors to hide any off flavors.@jdubdvdt thank you also for your breakdown! Firstly yes, total BS about the lack of feet in the middle...as a little side note, when I took delivery of my BZ and tested it for the first time, the pump clogged and started making the most horrendous dystopian grating/moaning sound i've ever heard in a brewing environment. You could have sampled it and put it in the next Blade Runner movie. No wort/grain/anything running through it, just water. I took the pump apart and found small shards and shavings of metal inside it, all magnetically stuck to the impeller. Turns out they were from the machining of the feet on the malt pipe! Spent a few hours with some tweezers picking off parts of (very, very sharp) metal between the weld of the feet. The middle row of feet was the worst - perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not...
I was looking at the sargeant sparge head and can find one here in Indo actually. As others have mentioned too, I hear it's renowned for clogging so probably only worthy of being used for sparging. I think I may just end up building my own manifold out of CPVC. I'm going to give the top plate another go as mentioned @micraftbeer above, but i'm set on trying something different to improve both efficiency and recirculation without channeling or compressing the grain bed. Like yourself, I have stirred numerous batches all the way through, around every 10-20 minutes or so, and achieved pretty good efficiency too, but want to use that time to get on with other stuff instead and simply rely on a better and more stable setup. I'm also quite hesitant to go too crazy with stirring since I don't always trust that malt pipe screen to stay in place.
That's awesome you still have the grainfather to hand for the sparge. My previous setup (stainless stockpots) succumbed to rust unfortunately, so I no longer have the luxury of using anything in parallel with the Brewzilla to take care of the sparge water. It's incredibly frustrating. For now it's a brewbucket filled with 80c+ water that sites for an hour then gets dumped over the top in 2 rounds (around 6L each time).
Perhaps I'm rushing my sparge and losing efficiency there. I always find myself having to either top up the sparge water or top up the kettle after removing the pipe (doesn't help that the water level markers are basically impossible to see without removing the malt pipe) to reach my pre-boil volume, probably because i'm not waiting long enough for it to drain, or because my grain bed isn't draining properly. Without fail, after all sparge water has been delivered, I've missed the target volume on every single batch (albeit not by very far). I resort to either topping up the sparge water and rinsing the grains one last time, quickly lifting off the malt pipe a few moments before target volume is reached, or just top up the kettle. I'm going to adopt your method and slow things down, leaving more time between sparges and waiting for every last drop before considering any top ups - essentially, this is why I'm missing the target, although I am generally very patient with it and let it run until the end. This has also got me thinking that perhaps my grain absorption rate is off..? I have it dialed in at 0.8L/Kg (0.21galon/lb) at the moment.
It would be handy if Brewfather had pre-boil and post-boil volumes as both hot and cold, would make the maths slightly easier and simplify other variables...especially when using an immersion chiller.
My hoppier/hopstand beers are generally hit with around 100-120grams in the kettle for my 5gal batches, so basically same as you. Maybe the increased trub loss is just down to the unpredictable nature in which the bottom screen behaves. Sometimes it works great, sometimes not. I also rack to FV via the recirculation arm + silicone tube, not the spigot.
(it's probably worth mentioning - all of the above in based on single, 23.5L batches, not double batches, in the 65L BZ)
I think you misunderstood. I said it was difficult to account for the trub and hops, not that I couldn't read the kettle markings. On my fermenter a sight glass would be cool, maybe. For the kettle, the trub and hop matter displaces liquid and is a variable on each recipe. There is no variable for pellet hop absorption or displacement in Brewfather. I can read the markings in the kettle after boil, but can't remove the hop debris or trub.A retrofit sight glass is the answer.
I was unaware of all the issues people were having with the sargeant sparge head. Glad I know that now. A CPVC manifold would work well. The top plate probably will work fine and maybe that is the cause of my grain compaction issues (not using the top plate). I like stirring, but I came from a 3 vessel system before the grainfather and it is part of my process that I can't break, yet. Definitely don't get too crazy with stirring, my previously mentioned mishap with a clogged pump actually came from overstirring while doughing in and the screen tilted up letting grain get underneath the malt pipe. I didn't know until the boil was over. I had been trying to figure out why my efficiency was so good, but the volume was displaced and off. Luckily it was a dunkelweizen and there was plenty of malt flavors to hide any off flavors.
I will say that I typically do top off, but my sparge process is slow. I couldn't imagine putting the full brewfather sparge volume through it. Honestly anything above 2 gallons is probably sufficient for a sparge, maybe even less. My grain absorption rate is 1L/kg (0.479 qt/lb) and I use a mash thickness of 3.4L/kg (1.625qt/lb), not including the deadspace under the mashtun.
I think the part that irks me in general regarding volumes is not knowing the post boil volume until it is transferred. Even with the markings on the kettle it is difficult to account for trub and hops. Could say I am overthinking it or could dial it in, but I have had difficulty over "winter" brewing in cooler weather and getting some weaker boils when it is 0C out. The boils are insane when its warm out. Either way, I am getting good results to the fermenter. And the beer, drinks.
I think you misunderstood. I said it was difficult to account for the trub and hops, not that I couldn't read the kettle markings. On my fermenter a sight glass would be cool, maybe. For the kettle, the trub and hop matter displaces liquid and is a variable on each recipe. There is no variable for pellet hop absorption or displacement in Brewfather. I can read the markings in the kettle after boil, but can't remove the hop debris or trub.
Unless I am overthinking it, but on a NEIPA I might have 8oz of hops in the kettle. That absorbs and displaces liquid - I don't see brewfather accounting for hops in pre or post boil volumes.
Is this a BZ gen 4 with central drain? ...Do you do a whirlpool? ...I don't recognize this plate under the hops ..what it is ?I completely agree, I plug in a different value for the trub loss depending on the beer. Would be nice if the software could factor in based on the hop amount used.
Chiller loss is the same every time but trub because of hops is a variable.
120g hops in a hazy
View attachment 869201
12.5 g in a belgian Table beer
View attachment 869202
Both the same batch size.
BZ Gen 4 is bottom drain. They sell an add-on... Bottom HED plate (heat exchanger disk?)... Works great. Yes... To whirlpool.Is this a BZ gen 4 with central drain? ...Do you do a whirlpool? ...I don't recognize this plate under the hops ..what it is ?
That is an aftermarket false bottom it looks like.Is this a BZ gen 4 with central drain? ...Do you do a whirlpool? ...I don't recognize this plate under the hops ..what it is ?
I am still confused that I had the HED in the box for my Gen4 35L 220V (not 4.1). Waiting for confirmation that it definitely doesn't come in the box with the Gen4.1 65L 220V when I pickup my 65L this week.BZ Gen 4 is bottom drain. They sell an add-on... Bottom HED plate (heat exchanger disk?)... Works great. Yes... To whirlpool.
I think you're right...I have the HED...it seems like another false bottomThat is an aftermarket false bottom it looks like.
Looks similar to https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...es/Heavy-Duty-35-Liter-Digiboil-False-Bottom-
I am still confused that I had the HED in the box for my Gen4 35L 220V (not 4.1). Waiting for confirmation that it definitely doesn't come in the box with the Gen4.1 65L 220V when I pickup my 65L this week.
I have the HED... looks like another false bottomBZ Gen 4 is bottom drain. They sell an add-on... Bottom HED plate (heat exchanger disk?)... Works great. Yes... To whirlpool.
I can doubly confirm that the latest 65L Gen 4.1 Unit does NOT have the HED. I checked with MoreBeer and they confirmed that, plus when i unboxed my new unit last week it was not includedThat is an aftermarket false bottom it looks like.
Looks similar to https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...es/Heavy-Duty-35-Liter-Digiboil-False-Bottom-
I am still confused that I had the HED in the box for my Gen4 35L 220V (not 4.1). Waiting for confirmation that it definitely doesn't come in the box with the Gen4.1 65L 220V when I pickup my 65L this week.
My BrewZilla 4.1 didn't come with the HED. I picked one up though. Another great add-on is the platform with casters. Coupled with the pulley system it's really nice to wheel the BZ under the pulley, lift the malt pipe, sparge, then wheel the BZ away and lower the grain while the BZ comes to a boil.That is an aftermarket false bottom it looks like.
Looks similar to https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...es/Heavy-Duty-35-Liter-Digiboil-False-Bottom-
I am still confused that I had the HED in the box for my Gen4 35L 220V (not 4.1). Waiting for confirmation that it definitely doesn't come in the box with the Gen4.1 65L 220V when I pickup my 65L this week.