Brewing with Wormwood

[Walker]

I don't have the time or the energy to debate this with you. Don't beleive the MADD propiganda.

Fair enough, but I don't think propaganda makes alcohol poisonous.... the fact that it can kill you does.

As to your other question, I hope I don't have to ever make that decision.

You and me both!

I don't want to start a debate, but I have a HUGE problem with laws that create criminals out of people who are not hurting anyone other than themselves. Victimless crime is rediculous (drug laws, motorcycle helmet laws, seatbelt laws, etc.)

Sure, certain things might not be GOOD for you, but I think I am entitled to make decisions about what I want to do with my own body. If I want to stick a needle in my arm, why does anyone care?

I just can't understand why certain plants/chemicals (tobacco/alcohol) are legal and others (pot/heroine) are not.

-walker

PS: No, I do not use heroine, nor do I advocate it's use. But if you want to use it, I think you should be allowed to.

 

[McGrath Brewery]

I think you should use seat belts because that can save your life in one go.
But pot only kills you slowly, it should be allowed

 

[ScottT]

Fair enough, but I don't think propaganda makes alcohol poisonous.... the fact that it can kill you does.



You and me both!

I don't want to start a debate, but I have a HUGE problem with laws that create criminals out of people who are not hurting anyone other than themselves. Victimless crime is rediculous (drug laws, motorcycle helmet laws, seatbelt laws, etc.)

Sure, certain things might not be GOOD for you, but I think I am entitled to make decisions about what I want to do with my own body. If I want to stick a needle in my arm, why does anyone care?

I just can't understand why certain plants/chemicals (tobacco/alcohol) are legal and others (pot/heroine) are not.

-walker

PS: No, I do not use heroine, nor do I advocate it's use. But if you want to use it, I think you should be allowed to.

Damn! I'll make time later this evening but right now consiter this. Water can kill you to if you breath it. Does that make it a poision? Eating too much fat can kill you long term, does that make it a poison? Lets see, sachrine causes cancer, does that make it a poison? I can go on and on.

None of these are the same as smoking crack or ice or shooting heroine.

Remember who's paying to the non-contributing portion of society. You and I are. More later.

 

[Walker]

Ok, I'll retract the "poisonous" comment then... just for the sake of not arguing.

However, I am really interested in your thoughts about what would happen if prohibition was re-instated. Since that would make alcohol an illegal drug, would you stop consuming it?

edit: I, for one, would probably not stop consuming it. That would make me a criminal. Am I a NON-CONTRIBUTING part of society? Of course I am not. But I would still be a criminal.

-walker

 

[ScottT]

Ok, I'll retract the "poisonous" comment then... just for the sake of not arguing.
However, I am really interested in your thoughts about what would happen if prohibition was re-instated. Since that would make alcohol an illegal drug, would you stop consuming it?
-walker

To answer this last question, would I still drink beer if it became illegal? I would have to answer that with a maybe. I'm not someone who has an addictive nature about them. I do enjoy beer but I don't have to have it to be happy.

I brew for the same reason I cook, I fish, I hunt, I harvest... There's just something about creating something special that you can share with others.

Needless to say, I would not be happy about prohibition should it ever come around again. Would I risk brewing my own? It really depends on the cost of getting caught. Kind of like speeding. Yes, I break the law occasionally. I do simply because the law is selectively enforced and the penalty is not severe enough to prevent me from doing it.

Now, let's address this issue of current illegal drugs that you think should be legal and readily available.

First I have a question for you. Is there anyone in your family who is addicted to an illegal substance? Have you seen the devastation, the physical degrading, the loss of will, the loss of dreams, the loss conscience, the loss of morality, and the move to other criminal acts like theft and burglary, and prostitution.....?

I do and know that no one wants to or needs to ever go there. I also know from your stance that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

I do know that the drugs are readily available and that the law is only a minor deterrent to some. Still, the deterrent is there, weak as it may be.

A society of addicts would not be productive, would not compete in the world market and would fail itself, eventually ceasing to exist.

Now let’s talk about alcohol being a poison.

I'll concede that it can be classified as a toxic substance (poison) just as many useful substances we all use daily can also be classified as such, aspirin for example.

I will argue that controlled intake of these substances can be beneficial to our general physical and mental health.

http://www.brewersofeurope.org/uk/publications_doc/moderate_2002.pdf

Need I continue in order to make this point.

 

[God Emporer BillyBrew]

Actually, Saccharine is sometimes used as a poison.

First I have a question for you. Is there anyone in your family who is addicted to an illegal substance? Have you seen the devastation, the physical degrading, the loss of will, the loss of dreams, the loss conscience, the loss of morality, and the move to other criminal acts like theft and burglary, and prostitution.....?

I've had family members addicted to an illegal substance, I've also got family members addicted to legal substances. The thing is that even though the substance was illegal my family member was still addicted to it. Also, there are tons of people who are addicted to both legal and illegal substances who don't advance to other criminal acts. And many of them are contributing members of society.

I think you should use seat belts because that can save your life in one go.

Seatbelt laws are a love letter from your state legislature to the insurance companies.

A society of addicts would not be productive, would not compete in the world market and would fail itself, eventually ceasing to exist.

Just because drugs are legal doesn't mean that we'd have a society of addicts.

 

[ScottT]

I've had family members addicted to an illegal substance, I've also got family members addicted to legal substances. The thing is that even though the substance was illegal my family member was still addicted to it. Also, there are tons of people who are addicted to both legal and illegal substances who don't advance to other criminal acts. And many of them are contributing members of society.

Really, I suppose that they don't do drug tests for employment in Ok. What happens if they ever have an accident at work and the subsequent drug test come back positive. They won't be contributing much then. See how long without sufficient funds for them to turn to criminial activity to feed their habbit.

Self employed you say? Doing what?

Just because drugs are legal doesn't mean that we'd have a society of addicts.

Hell man look around at the kids comming up in the cities now. Drugs are illegal and we dang near have a youth society that way now. Ice and Meths are all the rage and there so damn destructive. I was camping up at Chicksaw National Recreaton Area this summer and was talking with a local kid that was telling me all about how bad it is even in the smaller towns there in Oklahoma.

As I said earlier, the fact that they're illegal is at least some deturant.

Who is going to pay for the medical costs of these kids who can't get a job, don't want a job, don't care if they have a job. They're walking around hacking their lungs up because this stuff is eating them alive.

I'll tell you what, start your campaign to make drugs legal in Oklahoma, get your functional drug addict family to join you in your campaign along with how ever many other Okies will follow. Get it on the ballet and vote drugs legal. We'll get the social experiment going and see how it works out.

 

[Walker]

First I have a question for you. Is there anyone in your family who is addicted to an illegal substance? Have you seen the devastation, the physical degrading, the loss of will, the loss of dreams, the loss conscience, the loss of morality...

Nope. No one in my family addicted to illegal substances. However, I have two cousins, one uncle, and one (former) best friend that are raging alcoholics. My wife's father also died of liver failure due to his alcoholism... three days before he got to see his first grandchild (my son) turn 1 year old.

So, in my personal experience, alcohol is much MUCH more destructive. But it's legal, so that makes it different somehow?

, and the move to other criminal acts like theft and burglary, and prostitution.....?

Ah, well... then arrest these people for THOSE crimes (except prostitution... that's another victimless crime and is also absurd.)

-walker

 

[Walker]

Who is going to pay for the medical costs of these kids who can't get a job, don't want a job, don't care if they have a job.

The same can be said for the purely lazy and alcoholics. You still have not given me anything that shows why alcohol is "ok" but other illegal substances are "bad".

You can't jump to the conclusion that someone who uses an illegal substance is an addict and a dead-beat. That's simply not the truth of it.

They're walking around hacking their lungs up because this stuff is eating them alive.

and edit that for alcohoics:

"They're walking around killing their livers up because this stuff is eating them alive. "​

-walker

 

[ScottT]

Nope. No one in my family addicted to illegal substances. However, I have two cousins, one uncle, and one (former) best friend that are raging alcoholics. My wife's father also died of liver failure due to his alcoholism... three days before he got to see his first grandchild (my son) turn 1 year old.
So, in my personal experience, alcohol is much MUCH more destructive. But it's legal, so that makes it different somehow?
Ah, well... then arrest these people for THOSE crimes (except prostitution... that's another victimless crime and is also absurd.)-walker

Dude, are you really that naive? It sounds like, that with the history of Alcoholism in your family tree, you shouldn't be drinking yourself. Especially since your consumption of alcohol is severe enough to be likened to the effects of Ice and Meths.

 

[Walker]

Dude, are you really that naive? It sounds like, that with the history of Alcoholism in your family tree, you shouldn't be drinking yourself.

The friend is obviously not blood related, nor is the father-in-law. The uncle married into the family by wedding my mother's half-sister, and the two cousins I spoke of are his children. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Especially since your consumption of alcohol is severe enough to be likened to the effects of Ice and Meths.

Huh? Where did that come from? We haven't discussed anything about my cosumption of alcohol.

More to the point, what does this have to do with the legality of substances? Remember, that's what we are discussing here.

This is my last post on the issue. An attempt at a philisophical debate on the legality of various substances and personal freedoms has turned to personal attacks, and I'm not going to participate.

-walker

 

[rewster451]

Needless to say, I do not believe that alcohol or any other substance is inherently bad. Some people do have a bad attitude about it, which is why education is so important. If people knew the damage that can be caused by "Ice and Meths," we wouldn't have so many social issues with it.
I for one do know and have seen the terrible effects that Meth can have on a person and a family. It's a horrible drug. However, just making it illegal, dumping it in the same category as marijuana, does nothing. Then, if you do get caught, you go to prison, where you learn how to make it, come into contact with a wide assortment of other dirty poisons, and come out ready to start cooking and selling. That's not helpful to anyone.
The bottom line is that we do have a drug epidemic in this country. We have to realize that in order to solve this problem we're going to have to do more than just make them illegal, because when you arrest someone for smoking a joint in thier own house you send a message that the government is not trying to help.
Furthermore, all this arguing amongst ourselves isn't getting anyone anywhere either. Everybody would like to see the drug epidemic go away. Recreational drug use isn't bad, but being an idiot about a substance that can kill you (alcohol is included here), not paying attention to the consequences, and letting yourself become sucked into a culture of dying, these things are bad, and education can stop it.

 

[Genghis77]

I think most of the problem with illegal drugs is there is so much profit to be made. As with Prohibition, people like Al Capone amassed fortunes on manufacturing, importing and selling it.

As much as I am opposed to illegal drugs, there has been a war going on against them for more than a century....... and the war is being lost. Legalizing and taxing them might just be the answer. If the high profits weren't there, perhaps people would stop growing and manufacturing. If legalized there would probably be a year or so where all hell would break loose. All I am saying is like Prohibition, the stand against drugs is not working and maybe a different approach is needed.

Prohibition spawned the home brew industry. Most people brewed beer and wine limited to their own use, essentially harmless. Those brewing and distilling for profit were lured by the money. And that brought about associated criminal activities. The lesson learned was that making something illegal did not make it go away.

 

[druids_keep]

for the record - i've started my first wormwood ale .. and from the taste before fermentation i think there is great potential - keep in mind i like a lot of hops too so just a bit of the super bitter wormwood i think i the key ... 1/2 oz 60 min boil in 5 gal of wort ... more to come...

 

[jeysiin]

quite the far ranging thread... quickly and succinctly answering the question of the original thread.... wormwood is a common bittering agent for gruit ales. gruit, for those who don't know, is unhopped beer.

for what it's worth, midwest also sells mugwort, heather, juniper, and sweet gale-- all common ingredients for gruit ales. since i havent seen these anywhere but midwest, my guess is that they're trying to cater to those experimenting with gruit ales, and aren't including the wormwood for any narcotic side effects.

 

[CBBaron]

quite the far ranging thread... quickly and succinctly answering the question of the original thread.... wormwood is a common bittering agent for gruit ales. gruit, for those who don't know, is unhopped beer.

for what it's worth, midwest also sells mugwort, heather, juniper, and sweet gale-- all common ingredients for gruit ales. since i havent seen these anywhere but midwest, my guess is that they're trying to cater to those experimenting with gruit ales, and aren't including the wormwood for any narcotic side effects.

I've seen all of these at The Grape and Granary also. And I've seen at least some of these ingredients at my small LHBS.
Wormwood can be used as a bittering and flavoring agent in beer/gruit. From what I have researched on the topic it will have minimal if any medical effects and the taste is usually described as extremely bitter and not pleasant. If my other gruit attempts are decent I may try some wormwood in the beer just to experiment. We will have to see.

Craig

 

[Bobby1579]

I brewed up some Absinthe a couple of weeks ago. I would NEVER put wormwood in beer. It had such a horrible taste to it. You are better off just spending the ten dollars on the Absinthe kit and trying it. You will be gone for a few hours though. So plan ahead.

 

[RegionalChaos]

What is legal versus illegal doesn't make a lot of sense in the USA, unless of course you follow the money, then it makes a lot of sense.

Here is a break down of the addictiveness of common drugs. Note how alcohol and nicotine are much more addictive then many other horrible drugs.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1331125

It is pretty easy for most people that are a bit 'experienced' to understand that some of our legal drugs (nicotine, alcohol, various prescription medications, etc..) are insanely more harmful then our illegal drugs. But it all boils down to money anyway....

 

[jeysiin]

Wormwood can be used as a bittering and flavoring agent in beer/gruit. From what I have researched on the topic it will have minimal if any medical effects and the taste is usually described as extremely bitter and not pleasant.
Craig

Everything I have read suggests that it is used in very small doses as a bittering agent. along the lines of half an ounce for 30 minutes for a five gallon batch.

random side note, since it seems this thread is good for that... what were the recipes for the grui ales you've made, CBBaron?

 

[CBBaron]

Everything I have read suggests that it is used in very small doses as a bittering agent. along the lines of half an ounce for 30 minutes for a five gallon batch.

random side note, since it seems this thread is good for that... what were the recipes for the grui ales you've made, CBBaron?

Plan to make you mean.
Because I'm not sure how they will turn out, I am planning on making a six gallon wort and splitting it into two 3gal batches to boil.

I'm starting with the grain bill and yeast selection from a scottish ale I just brewed.
8# Maris Otter
1# Crystal 40
8oz Honey malt
8oz munich malt
4oz crystal 120
3oz chocolate
US-05 yeast

Then in the 3gal of gruit I intend to add:
1oz mugwort at 60min
2gram sweet gale at 15min
1oz dried elderflowers at flameout.

The second 3gal I plan to be more of a heather ale. Current plans are for:
.25oz of 5% hops (I have Glacier available) at 60min for bittering.
2oz heather tips at 60min
2oz heather tips at flameout


Craig

 

[Okiebrewer]

I have a friend who just joined my unit and before he joined the navy he said he tried every drug out there besides Heroin. I was talking about wormwood because I am now growing my own and he said about 15 years ago he bought the stuff to make some. He said he took 8 ounces of wormwood and let it steep in 2 liters of 151 for 2 days. He said everclear would work too or vodka but stuff over 40% works better. He then filtered it and tasted it, then to make it taste better he distilled it. After distilling he said he added some flavoring stuff and filtered it again. He said since he distilled it he had no idea what abv it was but he said it was much less bitter than most the absinthe he had. He said when he closed his eyes, the world still looked like a fading van gogh painting and all kinds of other trippy stuff. Now keep in mind how much he used compared to most kits. http://www.greendevil.com/absinthe.html <---my local homebrew store carries a kit has 1.2 ounces of wormwood for 2 liters of absinthe and it is 70-90mg/L Thujone which is 7-9 times the legal european amount) So yes it will work, but even the strongest stuff you can buy from the czech republic isn't as strong as homemade stuff, and at 70+ percent alcohol you better be feeling something soon or you'll just make yourself pass out.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Damn! I'll make time later this evening but right now consiter this. Water can kill you to if you breath it. Does that make it a poision? Eating too much fat can kill you long term, does that make it a poison? Lets see, sachrine causes cancer, does that make it a poison? I can go on and on.

None of these are the same as smoking crack or ice or shooting heroine.

Remember who's paying to the non-contributing portion of society. You and I are. More later.

With Toxin being equivalent to poisin then yes, anything being overindulged does equate to being poisin. Even Oxygen!

 

[scox80]

for the record - i've started my first wormwood ale .. and from the taste before fermentation i think there is great potential - keep in mind i like a lot of hops too so just a bit of the super bitter wormwood i think i the key ... 1/2 oz 60 min boil in 5 gal of wort ... more to come...

hey let me know how this goes....I would love to make it.....


Does any one know if you have to boil the wormwood in the wort or could you dry hop it? Maybe dureing secondary or something.

 

[fbi365]

A few observations: wormwood can be used in beer. If you have ever had New Belgium Springboard you have had a beer brewed with wormwood. It is known to have medicinal properties as well as some mystical properties as well.

Alcohol is considered a drug. We are all homebrewers here, we are all in the business of making drugs, illegal or not. Just because your drug of choice HAPPENS to be a legal one doesn't mean that those that choose a different drug sould not be able to use their drug of choice. Its a matter of choice, people should be allowed to choose.

 

[k1v1116]

wormwood can add flavor to beer, but mostly its a very strong bittering agent stronger than hops i think although its a different kind of bitterness. Im not going to weigh in on the psychoactive effects or lack thereof except to say all the scientific tests about this are published online.
I have a wormwood bittered beer bottle conditioning right now, at bottling my impression was a strong bitterness that was less crisp and maybe slightly medicinal tasting compared to a normal hop bittered beer, but this beer has some molasses in it and that may contribute to it.
The recipe was something like:
1 gallon
second runnings from oatmeal stout
added molassess forgot how much
boiled 60m with wormwood
15m corriander cardomom and licorice root
its just a crazy experiment ill see how it tastes in a few weeks.

 

[ben the brewman]

wormwood is used in the spring board. i just had some for the first time today and it was great. as for absinthe i have had like 4 differnt kinds or so ranging from 10mg thoujone to 100mg thoujone per bottle and i never felt anything more than drunk. its a very strong liquor and wormwood is a very strong herb. if you use it use it very sparingly. i made a wormwood ale with almost 3oz of wormwood and it tasted like ****. i poured all of it out in the yard.

 

[devaspawn]

I just heard on the news today the truth about the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe...

It's the much higher alcohol content. The report I heard says that they have completely debunked the theory that it's the wormwood. They used drops left over from bottles that were consumed a couple hundred years ago. I wish I had paid more attention to the story but I had fatherly duties to attend to. I distinctly heard though that it wasn't the Thujome in the wormwood but was definitely the alcohol content.

 

[Hagen]

I just heard on the news today the truth about the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe...

It's the much higher alcohol content. The report I heard says that they have completely debunked the theory that it's the wormwood. They used drops left over from bottles that were consumed a couple hundred years ago. I wish I had paid more attention to the story but I had fatherly duties to attend to. I distinctly heard though that it wasn't the Thujome in the wormwood but was definitely the alcohol content.

You listened to the Buzz report too, eh?

 

[devaspawn]

You listened to the Buzz report too, eh?

Michael Elston only tells the truth!

It's funny though...If he's not reporting on death, destruction, scary, and depressing things he's reporting on something drug related...

Very weird...

 

[justbrewit]

Surprise, Absinthe is now legal again, my roommate just bought a bottle. i don't know if every where has it, but in AZ it is now legal again. for about the last 7 months its been legal. hhhmmmm, i'm still not trying it lol