Brewing a light bodied crisp IPA

[jalmeida]

I have some Homebrew beer questions for you brewer types out there..

I am trying to put together a less malty easy to drink citrusy IPA and wanted to bound a few thoughts off you guys.

The IPAs i enjoy the most are the ones where the malt takes a back stage to the hops. Obviously this seems like an insanely obvious point, right? Well here is what I am seeing alot in new micro brews and even some old and seasoned ones. They make a 7% IPA mashed at a low temp to get a dry yet malty beer. Because let's face it, a 7% all grain beer is still a bunch of malt. But the issue is drier malt profile alone is not always enough when you have that much 2-row. So they end up throwing a bunch more hops to counter the malt forward profile. So here are a couple of fairly common things I hear about very some successful breweries that makes IPAs that I like are doing, yet you just don't hear much about in the homebrew world:

Pilsner malt- some are using pilsner malt either all together instead of or to replace a certain % of 2-row. The common flavor things to be concerned about are buttery flavors, so extended boil time is advised. The Pilsner malt has a lighter more delicate body as well as color which when utilized properly can really bring the hops forward. I have yet to try this, but it is actually more common than many probably know.

Munich malt- this being used instead of crystal to provide color while keeping higher fermentables. Keeps out the sweeter flavors without sacrificing head retention and color(apparently). I use Munich malt often, but have not done back to back one with munich and one with crystal for conparison.

Corn sugar- The idea is to offset some of the malt with corn sugar to get fermentable without getting a ton of malt body. The recommended is no more than 5% of your grainbill. This does have a tendency to give the beer more fruity flavors. Seems like this is often a debatable topic as many all grain brewers think this is cheating. I use corn sugar in my big IIPAs, but have not tested on a regular IPA or lower % beer. I know for a fact many of the top rated IPAs use Corn Sugar or another non-malt sugar.

Any thoughts?

 

[55x11]

I have some Homebrew beer questions for you brewer types out there..

I am trying to put together a less malty easy to drink citrusy IPA and wanted to bound a few thoughts off you guys.

The IPAs i enjoy the most are the ones where the malt takes a back stage to the hops. Obviously this seems like an insanely obvious point, right? Well here is what I am seeing alot in new micro brews and even some old and seasoned ones. They make a 7% IPA mashed at a low temp to get a dry yet malty beer. Because let's face it, a 7% all grain beer is still a bunch of malt. But the issue is drier malt profile alone is not always enough when you have that much 2-row. So they end up throwing a bunch more hops to counter the malt forward profile. So here are a couple of fairly common things I hear about very some successful breweries that makes IPAs that I like are doing, yet you just don't hear much about in the homebrew world:

Pilsner malt- some are using pilsner malt either all together instead of or to replace a certain % of 2-row. The common flavor things to be concerned about are buttery flavors, so extended boil time is advised. The Pilsner malt has a lighter more delicate body as well as color which when utilized properly can really bring the hops forward. I have yet to try this, but it is actually more common than many probably know.

Munich malt- this being used instead of crystal to provide color while keeping higher fermentables. Keeps out the sweeter flavors without sacrificing head retention and color(apparently). I use Munich malt often, but have not done back to back one with munich and one with crystal for conparison.

Corn sugar- The idea is to offset some of the malt with corn sugar to get fermentable without getting a ton of malt body. The recommended is no more than 5% of your grainbill. This does have a tendency to give the beer more fruity flavors. Seems like this is often a debatable topic as many all grain brewers think this is cheating. I use corn sugar in my big IIPAs, but have not tested on a regular IPA or lower % beer. I know for a fact many of the top rated IPAs use Corn Sugar or another non-malt sugar.

Any thoughts?

Sounds reasonable.

5% to 10% of Crystal Malts (maybe Crystal 10 or 20), or CaraVienne or CaraPils or Munich is perfectly fine and almost needed for IPA, otherwise it's too thin.
US 2-row works well, mash very low, maybe 148-149 or so, and up to 5%-10% sugar is fine as well in my book. I use it mostly in double-IPAs since i can easily get regular 6% or so IPAs with malt, but there is no reason not to use sugar if you need to bump your ABV without adding too much body.

You want to finish bone dry. 1.005 or so is great.

Don't forget the yeast. I like San Diego Superyeast WLP-090. It's like WLP-001 - ferments very cleanly (keep it at 65F or so) and finishes very low.

Dry-hopping is crucial. Drinking fresh is crucial.

Water treatment is another issue to look into, if you want those hops to shine.

 

[MizzouFermentationScience]

- Mashing 149 or below will help, if you can step mash then a 122 will thin it out. I do not like malty beers and if I only had 1 temp to hit, it would be 147.
- Darker crystal (120) in lower amounts if color desired
- Pilsner can give metallic taste and isn't as "clean" as 2-row. Up to 30% may be worth a try
- I find Munich to be dry malty, like fresh milled malt. I think munich plays a part in a lot of beers I don't like.
- 10% rye will dry things out. My main focus in brewing is Chuggability and rye is an important player.
- Alcohol below ~15% is actually perceived as sweetness so increasing booze may not work. Body may thin and maltiness wouldn't increase but I don't think that would help with sweetness (which is a part of maltiness)
- try adding gypsum to the brewing water to bring out extra hoppiness.

In closing, drop 10% rye on the bill and call me in the morning.

 

[55x11]

- Mashing 149 or below will help, if you can step mash then a 122 will thin it out. I do not like malty beers and if I only had 1 temp to hit, it would be 147.
- Darker crystal (120) in lower amounts if color desired
- Pilsner can give metallic taste and isn't as "clean" as 2-row. Up to 30% may be worth a try
- I find Munich to be dry malty, like fresh milled malt. I think munich plays a part in a lot of beers I don't like.
- 10% rye will dry things out. My main focus in brewing is Chuggability and rye is an important player.
- Alcohol below ~15% is actually perceived as sweetness so increasing booze may not work. Body may thin and maltiness wouldn't increase but I don't think that would help with sweetness (which is a part of maltiness)
- try adding gypsum to the brewing water to bring out extra hoppiness.

In closing, drop 10% rye on the bill and call me in the morning.

Chuggability! My new favorite word!

 

[madscientist451]

For a less-malty, citrusy IPA, I'd look at a recipe similar to Ballast Point Sculpin:

For 5 gallons:
11.00 lbs. Pale Malt (2-row) 1.8L America
1.00 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrin Malt USA
0.50 lbs. Caramel Vienne 20L Malt USA
1.25 lbs. Crystal 10L America

Mash 150
90 min boil

 

[jalmeida]

I like everyone's input here. I typically mash my IPAs around 149-150. And the beers are good, but still a bit on the malty side compared to other comparable abv beers. Trust me, I have troubleshot the equipment and process and know my equipment.

As far as cara-pils, i normally do not use cara-pils. I tend to make my IPA malt bills simple so the malt takes a back stage to the hops. Basically a beer to deliver alcohol and hops, lol. So my regular IPAs are usually 2-row, munich and a little C20. So what does the cara-pils offer versus munich? I have read on the grain profiles and find some of the descriptions cryptic at best.

That being said, does anyone have any experiences trying the ideas on my original post in an IPA?

 

[casualbrewer]

Mash low... 2 row and a little honey malt for balance. Will finish pretty dry. If you need color then use a bit of chocolate or something.

 

[Tknishi]

This is the kind of IPA I enjoy myself. Personally, I just use two-row, a some vienna malt, corn sugar, and zero crystal malts. The corn sugar was the key addition for me to get that crisp taste. I also mash low at about 148. small bittering addition, then all late hop additions, whirlpool, dry hop. Its a very light colored beer, but I'm more about taste than color.

 

[m00ps]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

 

[mattdee1]

Sounds reasonable.

5% to 10% of Crystal Malts (maybe Crystal 10 or 20), or CaraVienne or CaraPils or Munich is perfectly fine and almost needed for IPA, otherwise it's too thin.

This is what I was going to say. If it's all pale malts, then to me, the hop flavor/aroma tends to seem poorly integrated into the beer. It's hard to describe what I mean... almost like the flavor is sloppily "tacked on." I think the crystals help to glue things all together.

 

[jalmeida]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

Great input, guys!!!

What about Cara-Pils?

Percentage corn sugar for grain bill?

Also, how many IBUs for bittering? Do you aim for a specific bittering number on the low end then hammer post boil?

 

[jalmeida]

This is the kind of IPA I enjoy myself. Personally, I just use two-row, a some vienna malt, corn sugar, and zero crystal malts. The corn sugar was the key addition for me to get that crisp taste. I also mash low at about 148. small bittering addition, then all late hop additions, whirlpool, dry hop. Its a very light colored beer, but I'm more about taste than color.

Do you do a hop rest post boil then whirlpool? Or add whirlpool, cool then runoff?

 

[Redlantern]

Look up golden naked oats. Nice mouth feel. No crystal

Have found that
something like:
12 lb 2-row
.75 lb flaked wheat
.75 lb Golden Naked Oats

will put you in a nice brew.

GNO is also 10 L, so there will be a little color.

 

[Aristotelian]

I like the concept. Should work well with citrussy hops where you really want to highlight the flavors of the hops added late or post-boil as mOOps suggested. Consider a saison yeast with high attenuation to get rid of all that malt as much as possible!

 

[MizzouFermentationScience]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

Seriously considering nailing this to a brewery's front door, words to live by. Curious to hear from m00ps the logic behind corn sugar, what some of the results have been. I understand you can use less grain for the same abv thereby reducing body, but despite despising malty beers, I do like palate weight and your suggested grains would "cure" the OP's problem.

In very similar situations I've talked myself into dextrin malts but never performed a proper experiment. I say keep it simple and leave carapils out- plus adding corn sugar and carapils seems ludicrous. A malt contributing unfermentable sugars and corn sugar adding fermentable sugars... its like a backwards recipe for 2-row.

 

[beskone]

This is what I was going to say. If it's all pale malts, then to me, the hop flavor/aroma tends to seem poorly integrated into the beer. It's hard to describe what I mean... almost like the flavor is sloppily "tacked on." I think the crystals help to glue things all together.

My IPA's never have more than 2 or 3% Crystal 15 or 20. Sometimes I'll use 5-10% Flaked oats or wheat for a little extra mouthfeel.

5-10% is WAY to much IMHO. I don't honestly think you need any, and I've never found the hop flavor or aroma to be lacking in my IPA's.

The pictured one was:

6.5lbs 2-row 49%
6.5lbs Marris Otter 49%
4oz Crystal 15 2%

Tons of Galaxy, Citra and Nelson in the whirlpool and dry hop. It was amazing and the hops were front and center. 300 sulfate in the water helps to showcase the hop flavors for me.

 

[stylus1274]

I always use white wheat in my IPAs. They turn out fantastic. I do prefer less malt in mine as well. I think this may help you achieve what you need in addition to other comments here.

 

[jalmeida]

Seriously considering nailing this to a brewery's front door, words to live by. Curious to hear from m00ps the logic behind corn sugar, what some of the results have been. I understand you can use less grain for the same abv thereby reducing body, but despite despising malty beers, I do like palate weight and your suggested grains would "cure" the OP's problem.

I think the reason to use corn sugar in a 7% IPA can be justified the same way you use it in a 9.5% IIPA. And the same same for not adding crystal malt on the IIPA as well. Because with that much malt it already has enough mouthfeel and color. It is one thing with a 5% pale because the hops and malt balance with neither taking the front stage. Where with an IPA and IIPA the hops take the front stage. The malt is still is important to work with the hops. But it seems like a complex malt profile can ruin a hop forward beer more often than help in my opinion.

And if mouth feel is still lacking for your taste, other grains can provide the same without adding malt body and other unfavorable things.

 

[jschein]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

Whut[emoji49] that's my recipe

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

One of the most "chuggable" IPA's ive had...I liked it a lot.

4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1
3 lbs 10.00 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 2
5.00 oz Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3
2.50 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 4
0.17 oz Hop Extract [50.0%] - Boil 60 min Hops 5
1.00 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 20 min) Misc 6
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 20 min) Misc 7
0.65 oz Citra [12.0%] - Steep 30 min Hops 8
0.32 oz Amarillo [8.5%] - Steep 30 min Hops 9
1 pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast 10
3.50 oz Citra [12.0%] - Dry Hop 7 days Hops 11
0.90 oz Amarillo [8.5%] - Dry Hop 7 days Hops 12

http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/230918/fortunate-islands

 

[normonster]

....but there is no reason not to use sugar if you need to bump your ABV without adding too much body....

Corn sugar doesn't add any body to a beer. None. The opposite. You know that.

 

[55x11]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

You said "NO CRYSTAL" twice!
Seriously though, and with all due respect, m00ps, I hope by saying "NO CRYSTAL" you meant - "no more than 5% or so of Crystal malts".

I though Mitch Steele was one of the strongest, most vocal proponents of reducing (misinterpreted as = eliminating) Crystal Malts in IPAs. It makes sense as Crystal Malts are often overused in brewing in general (for various historic reasons going back to early days of extract brewing), and the residual sweetness these malts provide, in large or even moderate quantities, can prevent IPA from finishing super-dry, as it should be.

A lot of people took Steele's anti-Crystal crusade as if he meant we should never use ANY Crystal Malts in IPAs.

But if you look at his own book on IPAs, he is advocating limiting, but not completely eliminating Crystal malts. He argues for limiting crystals to 5% (maybe 10%) or so of total grain bill.

The recipes he has provided in the book confirm this point:

Pliny (elder) has 4% Crystal 40 and also 4% CaraPils.
Pizza Port Wipeout has 5% of Crystal 60, 2% of Crystal 15, 7% Carapils.
Stone IPA: 6.5% Crystal 15.
Brooklyn East IPA: 5% British Crystal.
Harpoon IPA: 2% Crystal 60, 4% Victory.
Blind Pig: 4% Crystal 40, 3% Carapils.
SmuttyNose: 3% Crystal 60
Stone Ruination: 5.8% Crystal 15
Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous: 4.5% of Crystal 60.

The few IPAs that drop Crystal Malts entirely are usually double-IPA with alcohol content of 9-10%, where high ABV provides sufficient residual sweetness/maltiness - Smuttynose Big A (9.8% ABV), and Stone's 14th Anniversary Emperial IPA (8.9%) or 10th Anniversary IPA (10%) have no crystal malts, even though 10th Anniversary has 6.4% Victory malt.

The only other recipe I could find in that book that eliminates all Crystal Malts is Goose IPA (at just 6% ABV), but that's my least favorite IPA of the list (I had it just yesterday as it's now served on United flights).

So I would argue that you actually DO need some crystal malts, and would advocate against regular (say 5-6% ABV) IPAs brewed with base malts only, as they end up too one-dimensional. But do limit Crystal malts to about 5% or so of total grain bill.

 

[55x11]

Corn sugar doesn't add any body to a beer. None. The opposite. You know that.

Read it again, normonster, and think about it this time - reading comprehension?

(And stop stalking me, it's getting annoying).

"...there is no reason not to use sugar if you need to bump your ABV without adding too much body"

Translation: "If you don't want to add too much body/mouthfeel to your beer but need to bump your ABV, sure, go ahead add sugar"

and - if your objection is to "too much" - you must realize that increased alcohol DOES add perception of sweetness/fullness in a beer?

So, no it's not "NONE" and not "Opposite". Try again.

 

[Yooper]

Great input, guys!!!

What about Cara-Pils?

Percentage corn sugar for grain bill?

Also, how many IBUs for bittering? Do you aim for a specific bittering number on the low end then hammer post boil?

Carapils is a body building crystal malt. You don't want it.

I have a nice recipe for a DFH 60 minute type of IPA, and it's 13 pounds of US two-row and 6 ounces of amber malt. That's it, and it's soooooo good!

 

[jalmeida]

You said "NO CRYSTAL" twice!

Seriously though, and with all due respect, m00ps, I hope by saying "NO CRYSTAL" you meant - "no more than 5% or so of Crystal malts".



I though Mitch Steele was one of the strongest, most vocal proponents of reducing (misinterpreted as = eliminating) Crystal Malts in IPAs. It makes sense as Crystal Malts are often overused in brewing in general (for various historic reasons going back to early days of extract brewing), and the residual sweetness these malts provide, in large or even moderate quantities, can prevent IPA from finishing super-dry, as it should be.



A lot of people took Steele's anti-Crystal crusade as if he meant we should never use ANY Crystal Malts in IPAs.



But if you look at his own book on IPAs, he is advocating limiting, but not completely eliminating Crystal malts. He argues for limiting crystals to 5% (maybe 10%) or so of total grain bill.



The recipes he has provided in the book confirm this point:



Pliny (elder) has 4% Crystal 40 and also 4% CaraPils.

Pizza Port Wipeout has 5% of Crystal 60, 2% of Crystal 15, 7% Carapils.

Stone IPA: 6.5% Crystal 15.

Brooklyn East IPA: 5% British Crystal.

Harpoon IPA: 2% Crystal 60, 4% Victory.

Blind Pig: 4% Crystal 40, 3% Carapils.

SmuttyNose: 3% Crystal 60

Stone Ruination: 5.8% Crystal 15

Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous: 4.5% of Crystal 60.



The few IPAs that drop Crystal Malts entirely are usually double-IPA with alcohol content of 9-10%, where high ABV provides sufficient residual sweetness/maltiness - Smuttynose Big A (9.8% ABV), and Stone's 14th Anniversary Emperial IPA (8.9%) or 10th Anniversary IPA (10%) have no crystal malts, even though 10th Anniversary has 6.4% Victory malt.



The only other recipe I could find in that book that eliminates all Crystal Malts is Goose IPA (at just 6% ABV), but that's my least favorite IPA of the list (I had it just yesterday as it's now served on United flights).



So I would argue that you actually DO need some crystal malts, and would advocate against regular (say 5-6% ABV) IPAs brewed with base malts only, as they end up too one-dimensional. But do limit Crystal malts to about 5% or so of total grain bill.

Agree as to the point of the above mentioned beers. And in agreement about Mitch Steele's comments about over use of crystal. However, this thread is not about Mitch Steele's idea of a good IPA. None of the IPAs above fall into the category of IPA I want to create. I and plenty others have created most of them at one point or another. They are good, but hardly as crisp and/or easy drinking compared to other newer ones. They are the old standards.

The question I think we should ask here is does a 7% all grain beer really lack body in any way? Or mouth feel? Enough to compensate via grain? Remember this isn't a russian imperial stout. Even if you make a 7% IPA with ~5% corn sugar to increase abv without adding body(which adding alcohol can in effect balance perceived body in these cases) you are still starting with a 6.5% IPA not even including the 5% of corn sugar. So when we decide to add 5% crystal, cara-pils, munich etc to increase body, are we doing it because we didn't like the beer without it? Or because we have been programmed through every other home brewed recipe we have read to add a crystal of some sort? Think about it. Have we seriously tried to make the recipe without the crystal first? The difference in body between 5% and 6% all grain is bigger than I think we give credit for.

 

[55x11]

Agree as to the point of the above mentioned beers. And in agreement about Mitch Steele's comments about over use of crystal. However, this thread is not about Mitch Steele's idea of a good IPA. None of the IPAs above fall into the category of IPA I want to create. I and plenty others have created most of them at one point or another. They are good, but hardly as crisp and/or easy drinking compared to other newer ones. They are the old standards.

The question I think we should ask here is does a 7% all grain beer really lack body in any way? Or mouth feel? Enough to compensate via grain? Remember this isn't a russian imperial stout. Even if you make a 7% IPA with ~5% corn sugar to increase abv without adding body(which adding alcohol can in effect balance perceived body in these cases) you are still starting with a 6.5% IPA not even including the 5% of corn sugar. So when we decide to add 5% crystal, cara-pils, munich etc to increase body, are we doing it because we didn't like the beer without it? Or because we have been programmed through every other home brewed recipe we have read to add a crystal of some sort? Think about it. Have we seriously tried to make the recipe without the crystal first? The difference in body between 5% and 6% all grain is bigger than I think we give credit for.

Perhaps I am not 100% sure where are you coming from. This was mostly in response to recommendation I see often of "Never use Crystal Malt in IPA", which I think is just a reaction to previous overuse of crystal malts. We tend to go from one extreme to another, but by doing so we avoid nuances. Not that I completely disagree with m00ps, it's just that his "No Crystal" is too categorical of a recommendation - it's more about personal choices.

So what commercial IPA is the ideal you are striving towards? Because to me, Sculpin, Stone IPA, etc. above are all great IPAs in my book. I am not sure why you think they are too malty - they are not "malty" by any means.

I think almost all of my own IPAs were around 7%. I would argue it's actually more difficult to make 4% IPA ("session IPA" or Pale Ale, whatever you call it), and it is even more difficult to make a decent double-IPA at 9%+. All of my IPAs finish around 1.004-1.006, which is "dry" enough in my book.

If I were you, I would make a few batches (maybe use small batch experiments) - try all-2-raw+sugar IPAs - go crazy and use 20% sugar for all i care - see if you get the crispy taste that you like. That's probably the least malty, flavor-less grain profile you can get. You can even try to make malt liquor IPA.
I personally find those types (SMASH IPA) a bit "thin" and one-dimensional. Closer to maybe very hoppy, alcohol-induced water. If you don't like that, try substitute in some rye, Munich maybe, Vienna, wheat etc.

 

[m00ps]

The thing is, I'm not trying to make any of those beers listed. If one of my IPAs comes out similar to any of those, its kinda disappointing and I take a look at where I went wrong. I'm shooting for something markedly different.

I'm not in the habit of going tit for tat with my points, its just what I find works for me. It's a style I have experience with. It seemed like the OP had a similar goal as I did when I first started trying to make good IPAs so I figured I'd give my (possibly unorthodox) advice. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree, not going to bother me.

I think you are on the right track to hitting your mark OP, keep at it man

 

[MizzouFermentationScience]

Enough of this theoretical horse shiza, I've got nothing to do tomorrow and a LHBS within walking distance. Propose your hypothesis and let's settle this like (nerdy) men. I'm thinking a single hop, one control, one batch 5% crystal, and one with a dextrin malt. More than 3 brews in a day is an aggressive goal, but if it's single infusion I can probably piece a second set up together. I stand by my rye suggestion but I can exclude in pursuit of knowledge. Limit variables, so name them.

 

[Tknishi]

Do you do a hop rest post boil then whirlpool? Or add whirlpool, cool then runoff?

I add hops at 10 min, then flameout, get the wort down to about 180, then whirlpool hops for about 30 min.

 

[55x11]

The thing is, I'm not trying to make any of those beers listed. If one of my IPAs comes out similar to any of those, its kinda disappointing and I take a look at where I went wrong. I'm shooting for something markedly different.

I'm not in the habit of going tit for tat with my points, its just what I find works for me. It's a style I have experience with. It seemed like the OP had a similar goal as I did when I first started trying to make good IPAs so I figured I'd give my (possibly unorthodox) advice. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree, not going to bother me.

I think you are on the right track to hitting your mark OP, keep at it man

m00ps - thats all fine and I read your whole HBT article a while ago on brewing IPAs which influenced me in many ways, so I know your preference for leaving out Crystal Malt (even though in the article you say it's preferred to limit it to 5% but your personal preference to even leave it all out).

But your advice ("No CRYSTAL", used twice) sounded very categorical, and since you have a great deal of authority here, I just wanted to point out that in fact the majority of world-class IPAs are brewed with some Crystal Malt (maybe about 5% of total grain bill), and all-base malt IPAs are fairly rare, perhaps for a good reason.

Look, I am all for experimenting and if you and jalmeida hate the taste of any of the commercial IPAs, and find any of the IPAs cited in Steele's IPA book as top examples of the IPA style "disappointing" - that's fine, everyone had opinions, and if you want to create a whole new malt-less, ultra-crispy IPA style, that's great, count me in! And it goes without saying that anyone should be free to do whatever they want to do in home brewing, it's their beer!

But for the occasional lurker/newbie out there who is looking for general guidance on how to brew a fantastic, crispy, hoppy IPA, "NEVER USE CRYSTAL MALTS IN IPA" is NOT a generally accepted wisdom, I am sorry - at least not if you accept as evidence the opinions/recipes of top IPA brewers (yes, commercial, "mainstream" IPA brewers), including anti-Crystal-Malt advocates like Mitch Steele.

Is there a commercially available examples you can mention that is the pinnacle of IPA you (or jalmeida) strive for? And please don't say Hill Farmstead or something similarly unavailable. It's easy to say "all of IPAs are disappointing", what is the beer that the two of you value then?

In your article you mentioned Session IPA, Belgian IPA, Double IPA and Black IPA. Any commercial examples from each of those 4 styles that we can easily get at our local stores? Or are they all "disappointing"?

 

[psujeeperman02]

I'm new to the corn sugar addition (and all-grain in general)...and love big IIPAs...when is it suggested to add corn sugar in the process? Is there a suggested amount to add as well?

 

[Yooper]

Enough of this theoretical horse shiza, I've got nothing to do tomorrow and a LHBS within walking distance. Propose your hypothesis and let's settle this like (nerdy) men. I'm thinking a single hop, one control, one batch 5% crystal, and one with a dextrin malt. More than 3 brews in a day is an aggressive goal, but if it's single infusion I can probably piece a second set up together. I stand by my rye suggestion but I can exclude in pursuit of knowledge. Limit variables, so name them.

The one with 5% crystal and the one with dextrin malt would be very similar. I'd go with your control, the 5-7% light crystal, and one with 5-8% wheat malt. Check out the differences.

I have a couple of recipes that have no crystal malt in them- and then I have one that has 11% crystal (my take on Surly Furious AND the base grain is Golden Promise!), and dozens in the 7-8% range. I am not a "NO CRYSTAL MALT IN MY IPA" person, as I like more than one style of IPA.

I think that categorically saying no crystal malt in an IPA narrows you to only a certain style and I make everything from west coast hop bombs to the New England hop juice types and tailor the recipe to the goals for that beer, so I'm with you on that!

I'm new to the corn sugar addition (and all-grain in general)...and love big IIPAs...when is it suggested to add corn sugar in the process? Is there a suggested amount to add as well?

I add mine near the end of the boil, depending on when my hop additions are and so they don't interfere. I used to add it at flame out but I started doing more flame out and whirlpool hops so I bumped it up to when I add the whirlfloc (if I remember) or near the very end of the oil.

As far as amount, I target around 10% of the grainbill to be simple table sugar, depending on the recipe and my goals for that beer.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

The thing is, I'm not trying to make any of those beers listed. If one of my IPAs comes out similar to any of those, its kinda disappointing and I take a look at where I went wrong. I'm shooting for something markedly different.

I'm not in the habit of going tit for tat with my points, its just what I find works for me. It's a style I have experience with. It seemed like the OP had a similar goal as I did when I first started trying to make good IPAs so I figured I'd give my (possibly unorthodox) advice. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree, not going to bother me.

I think you are on the right track to hitting your mark OP, keep at it man

You have to be off your rocker to argue with m00ps about IPA's.

 

[55x11]

You have to be off your rocker to argue with m00ps about IPA's.

I know , right?!
But I am merely quoting Mitch Steele and his IPA book and recipes for what I consider some of the best commercial IPAs out there.

It's possible Steele has no idea about IPAs, of course.

 

[jalmeida]

It's possible Steele has no idea about IPAs, of course.

I don't think that is the case. I think he knows the IPAs he likes and makes. It all comes down to tastes and preferences. And I think we forget that the IPA is nowhere near what it originally was. And it is continuing to evolve and get it's own regional interpretations. At this point nobody owns the style of IPA.

 

[Siberian]

no crystal
no munich
meh vienna
2 row is fine
mash low
medium to high attenuating yeast strain
yes to simple sugars
yes to any adjunct like wheat rye or oats, flaked is even better
NO CRYSTAL
no adding tiny bits of dark roasted malts "for color"
+95% post boil additions with your hops

I think this advice needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

I've brewed a great session IPA that at 4.3% which uses a substantial amount dark Munich malt (16%) and a bit of crystal 40 (5%). Fermented with WLP-90. Would seem like I'm violating the rules with my grain bill.

Bells Two Hearted IPA (repeatedly voted one best beers in the country by AHA members) has Crystal and Vienna in it.

 

[jalmeida]

I think this advice needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

I've brewed a great session IPA that at 4.3% which uses a substantial amount dark Munich malt (16%) and a bit of crystal 40 (5%). Fermented with WLP-90. Would seem like I'm violating the rules with my grain bill.

Bells Two Hearted IPA (repeatedly voted one best beers in the country by AHA members) has Crystal and Vienna in it.

I would agree if we were talking session IPAs. 4.3 abv is thin and needs a bit more added mouthfeel, color and body. A 7% abv IPA is a different story in my opinion.

But honestly anyone can make their case to advocate for specialty malts in an IPA. Or any beer for that matter. Because taste is neither right nor wrong. It's subjective. Especially with IPAs who have had the widest flavor category compared to any other accepted style. I was not intending to spark debate for or against crystal type specialty malts in IPAs. Or what everyone considers a good IPA. Just digging into the specifics of light bodied crisp IPAs. And especially speaking towards the recipe points in my original post, which I might add has not had much discussion on. That aside, their have been some really good discussion on ehat everyone else is doing in their crisp IPAs which has been really good and informative.

 

[jalmeida]

What are you guy's thoughts about only bittering 60 minute and 0 minute whirlpool hop additions? Not hoppy enough? Anyone who has done this type hop schedule, I would like to hear your thoughts?

 

[ong]

What are you guy's thoughts about only bittering 60 minute and 0 minute whirlpool hop additions? Not hoppy enough? Anyone who has done this type hop schedule, I would like to hear your thoughts?

That's my go-to, every time. My rule is to plan the 60 minute addition to deliver my total target IBUs, and not expect anything from the whirlpool addition in terms of bittering.

 

[m00ps]

What are you guy's thoughts about only bittering 60 minute and 0 minute whirlpool hop additions? Not hoppy enough? Anyone who has done this type hop schedule, I would like to hear your thoughts?

I'll give one more piece of advice and then I'm out. It seems we all have different ideas of what "light" and "crisp" mean.

Skip the 60min. Get most of your IBUs from the whirlpool. (yes, it does add to the IBUs)