Bottle guy wants to buy my beer

[Firebat138]

Wow... such opinions and hostility. Next your gonna tell me I cant make movies for my friends.. Wait...

 

[Homercidal]

Just to clarify, it would be legal to have somebody buy ingredients for you to brew with and then give them the beer, right?

Technically, some states allow you the right to gift a certain and specific amount of homebrew to people. In Michigan it's 20 gallons.

So assuming that he buys some grain and you receive it completely separate from the gifting of the beer, you can really only legally gift him 20 gallons.

Other states may have more or less lenient laws. And you'd still have to completely separate the exchange of ingredients and beer.

That said, I think that the spirit of the laws was designed to stop a homebrewing hobby from becoming a business without the associated tax revenue. It would be hard to imagine a federal agent knocking on your door for giving some homebrew to your neighbor. But they could, if they could prove there was some exchange of goods or services as payment for the beer.

 

[Wakadaka]

My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.

 

[cimirie]

I mean technically you can't bake bread or cookies in your kitchen and legally sell them without jumping through a huge amount of state, federal and municipal hurdles, including just basic laws about health inspections and sanitization issue.

You can't even have a bake sale without permits needing to be pulled, and liability insurance needing to be bought, and that's for a charity!

Its funny you mention that. I was just reading an article the other day where Michigan just signed onto law in July the cottage law which eliminates the need for permits or health inspections for commercial homemade food products that don't need refrigeration. Baked goods, jellies, jams, candies... They can be sold in a retail environment, but must be made in a residential kitchen to qualify for the exemption No beer though. Damn.

 

[gr8shandini]

Missing the forest for the trees. Homebrewing is legal only for the purpose of producing beer for home consumption and a small number of other enumerated and bona fide purposes. Just because a particular section of the law doesn't make something illegal doesn't make it legal. Brewing without a license, the laws are written such that it is illegal except for x, y and z. So the base case is illegal, and you have to find where the law says something is legal.

In either case, why screw up a hobby by getting money involved? Give the guy as much homebrew as you are comfortable with, offer to teach him to brew, suggest some commercial beers that are similar to the beers of yours that he likes.

I wasn't trying to say that it was legal, just that the section of code quoted earlier as the reason it was illegal doesn't apply. And if you read my post, I already said that I certainly wouldn't let any money change hands. I was responding to the OP's suggestion that he could trade some brew for some bottles. Now the guy who claims he sold 45 grand worth last year, that's a whole different ball of wax. Definitely not something I'd be posting on a public forum if true, and not something I'd joke about if it's not.

But there's plenty of other variables involved. If you live in Utah, I could see how the law might have a hard on for someone doing what the OP suggested. However, in most parts of the country, this sort of thing would probably be lumped in with things like jaywalking - something technically illegal, but not worth enforcing.

 

[AussieBrewerInColorado]

wow this thread sure turned to be a lot about nothing.

 

[JetSmooth]

wow this thread sure turned to be a lot about nothing.

Welcome to HBT.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just throwing this out there for the guy from NJ:

In NJ, you actually need a license just to legally homebrew.

 

[DunklesWeissbier]

My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.

I've had a donation box on my kegerator for ten years. Although I have not had homebrew in it until now.

 

[ed_brews_now]

+1 Problem solved

I am kind of proud that someone wants to buy my beer.

 

[ed_brews_now]

I invite the guys in New Jersey to come up here and brew and leave me to take care of the beer for them.

Just throwing this out there for the guy from NJ:

In NJ, you actually need a license just to legally homebrew.

 

[Golddiggie]

Just throwing this out there for the guy from NJ:

In NJ, you actually need a license just to legally homebrew.

True, but it's not like it's expensive or all that restrictive... http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/new-jersey

"This statue allows the issue of special permits authorizing the production of wine or malt alcoholic beverages in the home by persons over the age of 21, not to exceed 200 gallons per year, free from state excise tax."

 

[Airborneguy]

My point was that he's on here talking about "screw the man", meanwhile most people have no idea NJ requires a homebrewing permit. I'm not a downer when it comes to going pro, but I have no problem shooting down wacky loophole ideas.

Like Revvy always says, there are ZERO loopholes in this. If it's homebrew, you can't sell it, can't barter it, probably are limited in gifting it, maybe can't take it out of your house, and in some states, need a permit or can't do it at all. (all depending on your state)

 

[ed_brews_now]

So sending it by post to a home brew contest seems out of the question in some states.

My point was that he's on here talking about "screw the man", meanwhile most people have no idea NJ requires a homebrewing permit. I'm not a downer when it comes to going pro, but I have no problem shooting down wacky loophole ideas.

Like Revvy always says, there are ZERO loopholes in this. If it's homebrew, you can't sell it, can't barter it, probably are limited in gifting it, maybe can't take it out of your house, and in some states, need a permit or can't do it at all. (all depending on your state)

 

[Yooper]

So sending it by post to a home brew contest seems out of the question in some states.

In ALL states! Sending alcohol via US mail is against federal law. That's why it has to go UPS and/or Fedex or DHL. I don't know the laws in the Canadian provinces, though.

 

[ed_brews_now]

Homebrew laws governing me, OP.

http://www.agco.on.ca/en/faqs/faqs_alcohol.aspx

I don't think they will come after me if I get empty bottles to contain the beer I am giving away.

 

[Walker]

And technically, UPS (and possibly the others?) Requires you to have the proper permits from state and federal (if crossing states lines) before you can even ship it with them.

If you have ever shipped alcohol to anyone fo any reason, then it 99% certain you did it illegally.

But... I don't really pay a lot of mind to the legality of many things anyway, so...

 

[Golddiggie]

Homebrew laws governing me, OP.

http://www.agco.on.ca/en/faqs/faqs_alcohol.aspx

I don't think they will come after me if I get empty bottles to contain the beer I am giving away.

If you're giving the bottles back to him, you could see it more as 'renting' the use of them... If you really want to stretch things out on a limb...

I would contact some lawyers, or the government and ask if it would be legal to do something like that... Or have a friend reach out to them to see if it's legal. Would be nothing worse than to think it's ok, not bothering to check, only to get nailed later for doing it. Ignorance is no defense...

 

[Homebrewtastic]

Last year I made over $45,000 selling beer on the black market. Sorry Uncle Sam but you're not getting a dime.

And posting about it on a highly trafficked internet forum about make beer is a REALLY REALLY REALLY good idea.

It amazes me the most that the people who want to do illegal things post about it online. Especially here.

 

[Veinman]

Homebrew laws governing me, OP.

http://www.agco.on.ca/en/faqs/faqs_alcohol.aspx

I don't think they will come after me if I get empty bottles to contain the beer I am giving away.

Comments about Canada being outside of the TTB's control are correct however the laws aren't exactly more forgiving up in Canada.
This links to the FAQ of the AGBO (Alcohol and Gaming Board of Ontario) not exactly legal authority on the technical nature of the law, this page is designed for the very common questions the board gets with general answers.
The only relevant question is # 6
"Can I make alcohol at home?"
the answer from the website is:
"You may make beer or wine at home as long as it is only for your personal consumption or to be given away free of charge. Homemade (or "u-brew") beer or wine may not be sold or used commercially.

The AGBO is created and required to abide by the Ontario Liquor License Act. R.S.O 1990 you can find a copy of it here:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90l19_e.htm#BK4

s. 5(1) of the Act clearly sets out 5. "No person shall keep for sale, offer for sale or sell liquor except under the authority of a licence or permit to sell liquor or under the authority of a manufacturer’s licence."
this makes it plainly clear that you may not sell liquor in Ontario without a license. Now I know you argument is you're not selling you're bartering, renting, trading, exchanging etc. however you're still screwed because s. 1(1) of the act defines selling to include:
"“sell” means to supply for remuneration, directly or indirectly, in any manner by which the cost is recovered from the person supplied, alone or in combination with others, and “sale” has a corresponding meaning;

so to sum up you may not without a license in Ontario: sell, supply for renumeration (money or goods of any kind) directly or indirectly, in any manner by which the cost is recovered from the person supplied, alone or in combination with others alchohol.
Also keep in mind that Canadian courts often take a much more purposive approach to interpretation then our American counter parts. Feel free to find a loop-hole and then argue your exchanging, renting or whatever is not caught by the purpose of the Act.

The bottom line is that selling your beer is illegal, further, exchanging your beer for anything of value, including additional bottles, is also illegal.
In reality you'll probably get away with it, even if you turned yourself in to the police station they likely wouldn't spend the resources to prosecute you, and most people probably won't see this as some grave injustice you've gotten away with, but don't try and come up with some sly argument that shows its legal and certainly don't post on the freaking internet about what you're doing.

Oh In case you were wondering s. 61(1) of the Act quoted above makes it an offence to violate any provision of the act.
The penalty for violation is set out in s.61(3)b for individuals it is a fine not more than $100,000 or one year imprisonment or both.

 

[Airborneguy]

So sending it by post to a home brew contest seems out of the question in some states.

Yooper said exactly what I was going to say.

 

[COLObrewer]

It's all fun and games . . . . until someone loses an eye. :cross:

I don't sell any beer, I don't barter with/for beer, . . . . heck I don't even brew any beer. I'm just here for the stimulating discussion.

 

[BOBTHEukBREWER]

In the UK it is illegal to give away beer if that beer leaves your premises. But it is legal to give away wine or cider.

 

[Homercidal]

In the UK it is illegal to give away beer if that beer leaves your premises. But it is legal to give away wine or cider.

Yeah. THAT makes sense...

 

[bernerbrau]

In certain states it's not even legal to take your brew off the premises. That constitutes "transportation for sale."

 

[Pilgarlic]

Tempest in a brew kettle.

 

[bob1852]

Exactly just cause something is illegal doesn't mean that the feds are gonna come knocking at your door cause you sold or bartered a few bottles. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Marijuana is illegal but in most states if you get stopped with a dime bag they usually look the other way, why? because it's not worth the time and effort to prosecute you for a miniscule amount.

I don't give a rats ass about what the cops may or may not do. This is a private forum and it's against its policy to discuss illegal activities. Selling alcohol without proper TTB permits is illegal....

 

[Malticulous]

It's all about taxes.

 

[bernerbrau]

Really surprised this hasn't gotten the lock yet.

 

[brum]

Jesus..90% of you are reading into this like we're producing and distributing cocaine.

Do we need permits to give cash for birthdays or other reasons...doing people favors etc?

If I give my beer to someone and they give me cash. It could be reimbursement for my time, my materials and not the actual, physical beer. Or gas money for meeting them somewhere.

Most of you sound like the people who read the New testament and believe that the Book of Revelations means the worlds ending soon

Now if your sole purpose is to turn a profit on selling home brew, then by all means it would be circumventing the laws.