Bottle guy wants to buy my beer

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ed_brews_now

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I invite the guys in New Jersey to come up here and brew and leave me to take care of the beer for them.
Just throwing this out there for the guy from NJ:

In NJ, you actually need a license just to legally homebrew.
 

Golddiggie

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Just throwing this out there for the guy from NJ:

In NJ, you actually need a license just to legally homebrew.
True, but it's not like it's expensive or all that restrictive... http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/new-jersey

"This statue allows the issue of special permits authorizing the production of wine or malt alcoholic beverages in the home by persons over the age of 21, not to exceed 200 gallons per year, free from state excise tax."
 

Airborneguy

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My point was that he's on here talking about "screw the man", meanwhile most people have no idea NJ requires a homebrewing permit. I'm not a downer when it comes to going pro, but I have no problem shooting down wacky loophole ideas.

Like Revvy always says, there are ZERO loopholes in this. If it's homebrew, you can't sell it, can't barter it, probably are limited in gifting it, maybe can't take it out of your house, and in some states, need a permit or can't do it at all. (all depending on your state)
 
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ed_brews_now

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So sending it by post to a home brew contest seems out of the question in some states.

My point was that he's on here talking about "screw the man", meanwhile most people have no idea NJ requires a homebrewing permit. I'm not a downer when it comes to going pro, but I have no problem shooting down wacky loophole ideas.

Like Revvy always says, there are ZERO loopholes in this. If it's homebrew, you can't sell it, can't barter it, probably are limited in gifting it, maybe can't take it out of your house, and in some states, need a permit or can't do it at all. (all depending on your state)
 

Walker

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And technically, UPS (and possibly the others?) Requires you to have the proper permits from state and federal (if crossing states lines) before you can even ship it with them.

If you have ever shipped alcohol to anyone fo any reason, then it 99% certain you did it illegally. :D

But... I don't really pay a lot of mind to the legality of many things anyway, so...
 

Golddiggie

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Homebrew laws governing me, OP.

http://www.agco.on.ca/en/faqs/faqs_alcohol.aspx

I don't think they will come after me if I get empty bottles to contain the beer I am giving away.
If you're giving the bottles back to him, you could see it more as 'renting' the use of them... If you really want to stretch things out on a limb...

I would contact some lawyers, or the government and ask if it would be legal to do something like that... Or have a friend reach out to them to see if it's legal. ;) Would be nothing worse than to think it's ok, not bothering to check, only to get nailed later for doing it. Ignorance is no defense...
 

Homebrewtastic

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Last year I made over $45,000 selling beer on the black market. Sorry Uncle Sam but you're not getting a dime.:)
And posting about it on a highly trafficked internet forum about make beer is a REALLY REALLY REALLY good idea.

It amazes me the most that the people who want to do illegal things post about it online. Especially here.
 

Veinman

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Homebrew laws governing me, OP.

http://www.agco.on.ca/en/faqs/faqs_alcohol.aspx

I don't think they will come after me if I get empty bottles to contain the beer I am giving away.
Comments about Canada being outside of the TTB's control are correct however the laws aren't exactly more forgiving up in Canada.
This links to the FAQ of the AGBO (Alcohol and Gaming Board of Ontario) not exactly legal authority on the technical nature of the law, this page is designed for the very common questions the board gets with general answers.
The only relevant question is # 6
"Can I make alcohol at home?"
the answer from the website is:
"You may make beer or wine at home as long as it is only for your personal consumption or to be given away free of charge. Homemade (or "u-brew") beer or wine may not be sold or used commercially.

The AGBO is created and required to abide by the Ontario Liquor License Act. R.S.O 1990 you can find a copy of it here:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90l19_e.htm#BK4

s. 5(1) of the Act clearly sets out 5. "No person shall keep for sale, offer for sale or sell liquor except under the authority of a licence or permit to sell liquor or under the authority of a manufacturer’s licence."
this makes it plainly clear that you may not sell liquor in Ontario without a license. Now I know you argument is you're not selling you're bartering, renting, trading, exchanging etc. however you're still screwed because s. 1(1) of the act defines selling to include:
"“sell” means to supply for remuneration, directly or indirectly, in any manner by which the cost is recovered from the person supplied, alone or in combination with others, and “sale” has a corresponding meaning;

so to sum up you may not without a license in Ontario: sell, supply for renumeration (money or goods of any kind) directly or indirectly, in any manner by which the cost is recovered from the person supplied, alone or in combination with others alchohol.
Also keep in mind that Canadian courts often take a much more purposive approach to interpretation then our American counter parts. Feel free to find a loop-hole and then argue your exchanging, renting or whatever is not caught by the purpose of the Act.

The bottom line is that selling your beer is illegal, further, exchanging your beer for anything of value, including additional bottles, is also illegal.
In reality you'll probably get away with it, even if you turned yourself in to the police station they likely wouldn't spend the resources to prosecute you, and most people probably won't see this as some grave injustice you've gotten away with, but don't try and come up with some sly argument that shows its legal and certainly don't post on the freaking internet about what you're doing.

Oh In case you were wondering s. 61(1) of the Act quoted above makes it an offence to violate any provision of the act.
The penalty for violation is set out in s.61(3)b for individuals it is a fine not more than $100,000 or one year imprisonment or both.
 

COLObrewer

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It's all fun and games . . . . until someone loses an eye. :cross:

I don't sell any beer, I don't barter with/for beer, . . . . heck I don't even brew any beer.;) I'm just here for the stimulating discussion.
 

BOBTHEukBREWER

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In the UK it is illegal to give away beer if that beer leaves your premises. But it is legal to give away wine or cider.
 

bernerbrau

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In certain states it's not even legal to take your brew off the premises. That constitutes "transportation for sale."
 
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Exactly just cause something is illegal doesn't mean that the feds are gonna come knocking at your door cause you sold or bartered a few bottles. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Marijuana is illegal but in most states if you get stopped with a dime bag they usually look the other way, why? because it's not worth the time and effort to prosecute you for a miniscule amount.
I don't give a rats ass about what the cops may or may not do. This is a private forum and it's against its policy to discuss illegal activities. Selling alcohol without proper TTB permits is illegal....
 

brum

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Jesus..90% of you are reading into this like we're producing and distributing cocaine.

Do we need permits to give cash for birthdays or other reasons...doing people favors etc?

If I give my beer to someone and they give me cash. It could be reimbursement for my time, my materials and not the actual, physical beer. Or gas money for meeting them somewhere.

Most of you sound like the people who read the New testament and believe that the Book of Revelations means the worlds ending soon ;)

Now if your sole purpose is to turn a profit on selling home brew, then by all means it would be circumventing the laws.
 

bernerbrau

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Jesus..90% of you are reading into this like we're producing and distributing cocaine.

Do we need permits to give cash for birthdays or other reasons...doing people favors etc?

If I give my beer to someone and they give me cash. It could be reimbursement for my time, my materials and not the actual, physical beer. Or gas money for meeting them somewhere.

Most of you sound like the people who read the New testament and believe that the Book of Revelations means the worlds ending soon ;)

Now if your sole purpose is to turn a profit on selling home brew, then by all means it would be circumventing the laws.
Forum policy is forum policy. You don't discuss the sale of homebrew, except in contexts where it's clear you're not actually doing it, like bemoaning its illegality or discussing ways to get your local lawmakers to support changing the existing laws, or unless you've gone pro or live in a country that permits it. You may think it's harmless but if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.
 

FatherJack

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Exactly just cause something is illegal doesn't mean that the feds are gonna come knocking at your door cause you sold or bartered a few bottles. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Marijuana is illegal but in most states if you get stopped with a dime bag they usually look the other way, why? because it's not worth the time and effort to prosecute you for a miniscule amount.

...yet.

Never come between Uncle Sam and what is "rightfully" his.
 

Pilgarlic

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if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.
C'mon. Find me ONE parallel example. Just ONE and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's balderdash.
 
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C'mon. Find me ONE parallel example. Just ONE and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's balderdash.
How 'bout the FBI/ICE shutting down those websites that provide source/links to traffic illegal merchandise?

There's been threads in the debate forum about it...

example: http://www.extremeelvis.com/

And I'm sure there's websites saying "oh come on; copyright infringement isn't that big of a deal..."
 

Desert_Sky

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Forum policy is forum policy. You don't discuss the sale of homebrew, except in contexts where it's clear you're not actually doing it, like bemoaning its illegality or discussing ways to get your local lawmakers to support changing the existing laws, or unless you've gone pro or live in a country that permits it. You may think it's harmless but if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.
whatever
 

cimirie

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AZ_IPA said:
But, HBT policy = balderdash? :D
I've said it before... If said policies are based on nothing of substantive value, yeah.

For truth, talking about and endorsing are two totally different things. This policy doesn't really effect me (mainly because until I go pro, my family is the only group drinking my beer).

But in principle, I object to any forum banning a related topic because of either 1) fear of a boogeyman crackdown 2) dislike/distaste of a topic. ESPECIALLY on topics established members of the community have expressed interest in discussing.
 

Conan

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....
But in principle, I object to any forum banning a related topic because of either 1) fear of a boogeyman crackdown 2) dislike/distaste of a topic. ESPECIALLY on topics established members of the community have expressed interest in discussing.
But we have a debate/ critical issues section just for discussing distasteful topics. I realize this particular one is still blanketed by the illegal activities prohibition. Also, I'm not disagreeing that we should be able to talk about these issues- but if we could do so openly on all areas of the site many of us would be annoyed by it. I'm on several forums, as are many members here I'm sure, covering multiple interests. All of them institute the 'touchy issues' rule, just like HBT.

I feel like the OP wasn't intending on this thread morphing to it's current state, but it was inevitable. Like any group of friends, there's certain topics that should be avoided. Only carnivore at a hippie fest? Don't bring up McDonald's. I know when on HB, not to admit sale of alcohol (not that I do), along with a few other topics that needn't be brought up. Solution: just don't, because this is what happens. No complaint intended with that- just callin' it as I've accepted it.

Cimirie, I'm not aiming at you- your quote just worked for my post. :mug:
Kyle
 
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No one's saying we shouldn't talk about the laws pertaining to homebrewing......

What I believe is frowned upon are statements like: "I don't give **** if it's illegal, I know that, and I'm still gonna do it; so lets talk about how to get away with it."
 

JebCkr

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I'm sure someone has said it, but sell him the bottles and "gift" him the contents of said bottles.
 

LakewoodBrew

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My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.
That was me. I'll post a pic when I get a chance ;-)
 
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Even if the admin isn't concerned about the fuzz shutting down the website, there's still good reason to keep discussion of illegal activity off the board -- for the good of the hobby.

Although homebrewing is getting more popular among the general population, there are still a lot of groups that are anti-alcohol/pro-temperance that find suspicion in anything alcohol related. I mean, prohibition ended decades ago and we still have states where homebrewing is illegal or barely legalized. If people looking for information or dirt on homebrewing come on to the biggest internet site discussing it and find people talking about ways to break the law, that's going to add fuel to the fire to make the law more restrictive. It might make it harder for HBS to open up in some areas. It might make homebrewers targets of nonsense police raids as being "distillers". If instead we want to see the laws around homebrewing relaxed, we are going to win far more battles by presenting the image that it is a fun, law-abiding hobby than a haven for rum-running criminals.
 

chevelle383

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GEEEEEEEZ.. Seriously people. All this over a guy wanting to buy a couple of sixpacks. AND....more to the point, He said he told the guy he couldnt sell him any, that he had to give it away!. IM sure the ATF is writng this all down as we speak. In fact I bet they are on thier way over there right now and bout to shut this whole website down with the flip of a switch. Grab a beer and chill people.
The ATF can easily spend about $10,000 an hour on an investigation, for what?
 

Golddiggie

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Seemed like the guy who provides the bottles is wanting much more than a few... The OP has already told him it's not legal for him to sell him the brew.

Personally, I would just be very, very careful about something like this... I think it would be safer to teach the other person how to brew his own batches, even if it's using the OP's recipe. Of course, there could be educational costs associated with such teaching. :ban:
 

chevelle383

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I mean you cant go around here saying " i dont care about the cops and all that stuff" But seriously, from What I could see NO ONE said they had intentions of selling. Personally, I would never sell my beer . Its too much work for a 12 gallon batch to even be profitable if you wanted to. Id tell him pound salt, and you can come over and "hangout". There is the donation jar. And I dont even wanna hear about if thats legal or not. Thats about as much as selling beer as you buying all the beer for the night, and your buddies chipping in later. There aint no way in HELL ANYONE could get arrested or even fined for that.
 

agodfrey11

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I cant see how selling would be worth it. Once you take in time, ingredients (grain, hops, water, propane, electricity, etc.), and work, you would really only be making, at best, $5-10 hour. Unless you were really, really efficient and brewing large batches then it wouldn't be worth it. And if you got to that point wouldn't you do better to just open a brewery...

Just my opinion...
 

boo boo

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Had you not posted it on the internet, no one would ever know. :D
We still don't know. Canada is a big place and anyway, just who the hell is he anyway? Not like the feds are going looking at a homebrewer who gives/barters a little brew away for the lost excise tax.

Just saying.
 
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