Bottle guy wants to buy my beer

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ed_brews_now

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There is a guy I get bottles from. I a give him beer in exchange.
He is now desparate to buy my beer. You just can't get the exact flavour commercially. (You can search my posts and you will find the recipes. They are simple. )

Makes me feel like drug dealer. I told him I can't legally sell it. I can give it away.
 

phuzle

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These types of things can be figured out. You give him the beer for free, and he makes a donation to you for helping him get rid of his bottles.
 

jbrookeiv

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Have him purchase the ingredients for the batch, and you keep half of the batch. Sounds perfectly fine to me.
 

BlueZooBrewing

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jbrookeiv said:
Have him purchase the ingredients for the batch, and you keep half of the batch. Sounds perfectly fine to me.
(
+1

Maybe throw in a nice new brew toy to facilitate the process...

But in all seriousness does anyone know of a legal issue with these grounds?
 
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Bartering is not illegal. Perhaps you can exchange other goods/services.
Actually,

Bartering with alcohol is HIGHLY illegal.
What he said ^^^

Trading or Bartering

The trading or bartering of alcoholic beverages for cash or in exchange for different alcoholic beverages by and between retail liquor dealers, in order that they may take advantage of special deals involving quantity discounts or free goods offered by wholesale liquor dealers, is not a bona fide loan of liquors described in Revenue Ruling 54-509 which outlines transactions constituting bona fide loans. Such trading or bartering constitutes sales for purpose of resale and engaging in this practice would subject the retail dealers to liability for special tax as wholesale liquor dealers and would necessitate the acquiring of basic permits as wholesale liquor dealers. This ruling relates only to the trading or bartering of merchandise between retailers after purchase thereof by one or more retailers individually, and not to the cooperative purchasing of alcoholic beverages by several retailers, dealt with in Revenue Ruling 56-204.

26 U.S.C. 5111; 27 CFR 194.28
You can thank Revvy for this statute :D
 

Revvy

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With all due respect to Homebrewtastic, Revvy, and my fellow homebrewers. This is what I think about that statute.
Well, tough. DO you think any of us like it? Don't you think we'd all love to sell beer and be the next Sam Caligone without having to jump through the same hurdles as they did...Seriously? Why get pissed at us because we understand the law and the history behind it? Just because we understand it, and respect it like any law abiding citizens, it doesn't mean we like it.

It never ceases to amaze me, how this is idea that it could be illegal is so foreign to people. I mean technically you can't bake bread or cookies in your kitchen and legally sell them without jumping through a huge amount of state, federal and municipal hurdles, including just basic laws about health inspections and sanitization issue, why the HELL would you think selling alcohol would be easier?

You can't even have a bake sale without permits needing to be pulled, and liability insurance needing to be bought, and that's for a charity!

I'm sorry this is so hard for you to grasp, but it's alcohol we're talking about for chriminy sakes. Read Ambitious Brew or any history of prohibition to understand why laws are so prohibitive and in some places downright idiotic where booze sales and such are concerned.......Not only do you have the guvment not wanting us to sell homebrew without paying taxes, but you have the micro/macro lobby also not wanting us to legally sell homebrew, plus you have Madd, and Sadd, and many religuous organizations not wanting alcohol easily available....

Why does everybody get so pissy when we point out there's no loopholes? Is it because we're busting your dreams??? Then follow the rules, like Caligone and everyone else who's gone pro has....

Quit thinking you can run around the law, quit bitching at those of us who point out that there's no way around the law, no loophole, or anything.....if you really want to help, then try to change the laws....Write your congress people, better yet become a congressperson. But quit thinking you can scheme your way through this. And quit getting pissy at those of us who've seen a million threads like this on here, and a million dreams of going pro that never amount to anything.....If it was so easy, you don't think we'd all be doing it already.:mad:
 

Revvy

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Had you not posted it on the internet, no one would ever know. :D
Yeah, that's the other ridiculous thing about these threads. You don't think in the 21st century with computers how they are, and with this being the largest hobby booze forum in the world, with over 40,000 active participants, that there's not a few keyword bots pointed at this site, or a few TTB wonks cruising boards like this looking for folks openly bragging about selling their beer. Are people that naive, or am I just that paranoid about the guvment? :rolleyes:
 

Revvy

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ChshreCat

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I have an arrangement with my boss who loves one of my beers. She buys some barley, I do stuff with it and we split the spoils.
 

Amity

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All of the above is bu11****. He's Canadian (apparently), so all of your TTB stuff is irrelevant.

Not that it's legal in Canada...
 

Golddiggie

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SOME states allow you to gift X gallons of home brew a year... IF you gift it to someone, who's to say they can't gift you something too. BUT, you need to be very careful about it. Make sure you're staying within the parameters of the laws, or you're inviting trouble on yourself... Getting a felony conviction can ruin your life/career (depending on the field you're in)...

For me, it's not worth the potential pain to do it. I've given a few friends and family members a couple of bottles of home brew so far. I've had a few people wanting to pay me for it. I've told them, point blank, that it's illegal for me to sell it, but I would give them a few bottles for them to enjoy later. I just want the bottles back. Sometimes I have to tell them a few times that it's illegal for them to pay me for the homebrew... Eventually they tend to get it.

I probably will bring home brew to family gatherings/parties. If nothing else, at least I know there will be something really good for me to drink there. :D When I move next, I'll probably have a 'warming' party and have the first brew I make there for people to try.
 
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Skipped over the heated posts but imho, technically beer is not alcohol until it is fermented. You could make the wort, pitch the yeast, and give it to him. He'll need to do the rest, if he needs help, i'm sure you're a friend willing to help out other friends. Nothing illegal about it, he may give you some bottles as a thanks for helping.
Or, get a keg system and you won't have any probs with the bottle guy wanting your beer.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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SOME states allow you to gift X gallons of home brew a year... IF you gift it to someone, who's to say they can't gift you something too. BUT, you need to be very careful about it. Make sure you're staying within the parameters of the laws, or you're inviting trouble on yourself... Getting a felony conviction can ruin your life/career (depending on the field you're in)...

For me, it's not worth the potential pain to do it. I've given a few friends and family members a couple of bottles of home brew so far. I've had a few people wanting to pay me for it. I've told them, point blank, that it's illegal for me to sell it, but I would give them a few bottles for them to enjoy later. I just want the bottles back. Sometimes I have to tell them a few times that it's illegal for them to pay me for the homebrew... Eventually they tend to get it.

I probably will bring home brew to family gatherings/parties. If nothing else, at least I know there will be something really good for me to drink there. :D When I move next, I'll probably have a 'warming' party and have the first brew I make there for people to try.
Well said. You don't really want to sell your brew unless you make a LOT anyway, and in that case, get a license. Just me anyway.
 

Golddiggie

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AussieBrewerInColorado, I believe that once you pitch the yeast, they consider it alcohol... IF you gave him the wort, and told him what yeast to buy and how to pitch it, that MIGHT be legal...

Again, the pain : pleasure ratio is too far in the pain zone for me...
 
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AussieBrewerInColorado, I believe that once you pitch the yeast, they consider it alcohol... IF you gave him the wort, and told him what yeast to buy and how to pitch it, that MIGHT be legal...

Again, the pain : pleasure ratio is too far in the pain zone for me...
Agreed totally, do whatever you feel is right. I was just pointing out that wort isn't beer (i.e. he could pitch the yeast). I wouldn't personally take money for mine, mainly because I wouldn't sell any muffins i made, and I want it for myself or to share "freely" with friends and family :)
 

Golddiggie

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Agreed totally, do whatever you feel is right. I was just pointing out that wort isn't beer (i.e. he could pitch the yeast). I wouldn't personally take money for mine, mainly because I wouldn't sell any muffins i made, and I want it for myself or to share "freely" with friends and family :)
True... Just tell him how to make his own damned beer... Wonder what the rules would be for consulting to teach him how to brew in HIS home with his own gear... hmmmmm Could always tell him that you'll take empty bottles in exchange for partial payment for educational services rendered. :ban: Since he's the one actually brewing, at his place, you're not giving him anything but knowledge and advise. :fro:
 
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ed_brews_now

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Agreed totally, do whatever you feel is right. I was just pointing out that wort isn't beer (i.e. he could pitch the yeast). I wouldn't personally take money for mine, mainly because I wouldn't sell any muffins i made, and I want it for myself or to share "freely" with friends and family :)
That is what I told him. I give him a few. Give back the empties and other empties.
 

millsware

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Just to clarify, it would be legal to have somebody buy ingredients for you to brew with and then give them the beer, right?
 

Hoodweisen

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Laws are meant to be broken if it wasnt something someone wanted to do than there would be no reason for the law. Go for it. The man is gonna have hell ever catching you they cant even bust my neighbors slinging dope in the street in front of their house.
 

Pick

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Uncle Sam gets mighty angry, when he gets cut out of the revenue loop!
 

gr8shandini

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Trading or Bartering

The trading or bartering of alcoholic beverages for cash or in exchange for different alcoholic beverages by and between retail liquor dealers, in order that they may take advantage of special deals involving quantity discounts or free goods offered by wholesale liquor dealers, is not a bona fide loan of liquors described in Revenue Ruling 54-509 which outlines transactions constituting bona fide loans. Such trading or bartering constitutes sales for purpose of resale and engaging in this practice would subject the retail dealers to liability for special tax as wholesale liquor dealers and would necessitate the acquiring of basic permits as wholesale liquor dealers. This ruling relates only to the trading or bartering of merchandise between retailers after purchase thereof by one or more retailers individually, and not to the cooperative purchasing of alcoholic beverages by several retailers, dealt with in Revenue Ruling 56-204.

26 U.S.C. 5111; 27 CFR 194.28


I'm not a lawyer, but I see nothing in this quote that says anything about bartering between non-retailers. Not to say that it's legal, but this particular paragraph doesn't make it illegal.

The way I see it, if you keep it small-scale, no money changes hands and you don't keep any records, you're probably safe. A DA probably isn't even going to press charges, let alone get a jury to agree to put someone away for trading a case of homebrew for a few empty bottles. Besides, if I bring a growler to a brew club meeting and I, in turn, drink a few pints of someone elses beer, have we just bartered alcohol?
 

remilard

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Trading or Bartering

The trading or bartering of alcoholic beverages for cash or in exchange for different alcoholic beverages by and between retail liquor dealers, in order that they may take advantage of special deals involving quantity discounts or free goods offered by wholesale liquor dealers, is not a bona fide loan of liquors described in Revenue Ruling 54-509 which outlines transactions constituting bona fide loans. Such trading or bartering constitutes sales for purpose of resale and engaging in this practice would subject the retail dealers to liability for special tax as wholesale liquor dealers and would necessitate the acquiring of basic permits as wholesale liquor dealers. This ruling relates only to the trading or bartering of merchandise between retailers after purchase thereof by one or more retailers individually, and not to the cooperative purchasing of alcoholic beverages by several retailers, dealt with in Revenue Ruling 56-204.

26 U.S.C. 5111; 27 CFR 194.28


I'm not a lawyer, but I see nothing in this quote that says anything about bartering between non-retailers. Not to say that it's legal, but this particular paragraph doesn't make it illegal.

The way I see it, if you keep it small-scale, no money changes hands and you don't keep any records, you're probably safe. A DA probably isn't even going to press charges, let alone get a jury to agree to put someone away for trading a case of homebrew for a few empty bottles. Besides, if I bring a growler to a brew club meeting and I, in turn, drink a few pints of someone elses beer, have we just bartered alcohol?
Missing the forest for the trees. Homebrewing is legal only for the purpose of producing beer for home consumption and a small number of other enumerated and bona fide purposes. Just because a particular section of the law doesn't make something illegal doesn't make it legal. Brewing without a license, the laws are written such that it is illegal except for x, y and z. So the base case is illegal, and you have to find where the law says something is legal.

In either case, why screw up a hobby by getting money involved? Give the guy as much homebrew as you are comfortable with, offer to teach him to brew, suggest some commercial beers that are similar to the beers of yours that he likes.
 

Firebat138

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Wow... such opinions and hostility. :) Next your gonna tell me I cant make movies for my friends.. Wait...
 

Homercidal

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Just to clarify, it would be legal to have somebody buy ingredients for you to brew with and then give them the beer, right?
Technically, some states allow you the right to gift a certain and specific amount of homebrew to people. In Michigan it's 20 gallons.

So assuming that he buys some grain and you receive it completely separate from the gifting of the beer, you can really only legally gift him 20 gallons.

Other states may have more or less lenient laws. And you'd still have to completely separate the exchange of ingredients and beer.

That said, I think that the spirit of the laws was designed to stop a homebrewing hobby from becoming a business without the associated tax revenue. It would be hard to imagine a federal agent knocking on your door for giving some homebrew to your neighbor. But they could, if they could prove there was some exchange of goods or services as payment for the beer.
 

Wakadaka

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My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.
 

cimirie

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Revvy said:
I mean technically you can't bake bread or cookies in your kitchen and legally sell them without jumping through a huge amount of state, federal and municipal hurdles, including just basic laws about health inspections and sanitization issue.

You can't even have a bake sale without permits needing to be pulled, and liability insurance needing to be bought, and that's for a charity!
Its funny you mention that. I was just reading an article the other day where Michigan just signed onto law in July the cottage law which eliminates the need for permits or health inspections for commercial homemade food products that don't need refrigeration. Baked goods, jellies, jams, candies... They can be sold in a retail environment, but must be made in a residential kitchen to qualify for the exemption No beer though. Damn.
 

gr8shandini

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Missing the forest for the trees. Homebrewing is legal only for the purpose of producing beer for home consumption and a small number of other enumerated and bona fide purposes. Just because a particular section of the law doesn't make something illegal doesn't make it legal. Brewing without a license, the laws are written such that it is illegal except for x, y and z. So the base case is illegal, and you have to find where the law says something is legal.

In either case, why screw up a hobby by getting money involved? Give the guy as much homebrew as you are comfortable with, offer to teach him to brew, suggest some commercial beers that are similar to the beers of yours that he likes.
I wasn't trying to say that it was legal, just that the section of code quoted earlier as the reason it was illegal doesn't apply. And if you read my post, I already said that I certainly wouldn't let any money change hands. I was responding to the OP's suggestion that he could trade some brew for some bottles. Now the guy who claims he sold 45 grand worth last year, that's a whole different ball of wax. Definitely not something I'd be posting on a public forum if true, and not something I'd joke about if it's not.

But there's plenty of other variables involved. If you live in Utah, I could see how the law might have a hard on for someone doing what the OP suggested. However, in most parts of the country, this sort of thing would probably be lumped in with things like jaywalking - something technically illegal, but not worth enforcing.
 

DunklesWeissbier

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My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.
I've had a donation box on my kegerator for ten years. Although I have not had homebrew in it until now.:mug:
 
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