Bottle guy wants to buy my beer

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jamnw

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I don't see how it could be profitable to sell HB.
The equipment and ingredients are not cheap.

Personally, I think the guy boasting about making $45K is full of bull.

I am no business man, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it takes a lot of brew to break even.
I would bet that a 6pk would cost at least $8 to make a small profit, after paying for your equipment and accounting for your time.

From what I read on here, I don't think that "MOST" home brewers get the consistency of a professional brew.

Bottom line I would hate to wake up every morning looking at "Bubba" instead of my wife because I thought the law was insignificant. We are in a recession, and governments tend to enforce the insignificant when they are wanting for money.
 

cimirie

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I don't see how it could be profitable to sell HB.
The equipment and ingredients are not cheap.

Personally, I think the guy boasting about making $45K is full of bull.

I am no business man, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it takes a lot of brew to break even.
I would bet that a 6pk would cost at least $8 to make a small profit, after paying for your equipment and accounting for your time.
At first, I was going to argue against this statement. I still dispute that you couldn't turn a profit. I know you absolutely could make a good profit doing this. I don't find the material cost to be large at all. And the equipment is a sunk cost which doesn't factor into a profitability analysis. BUT, the likelihood of $45k...

My cost per 5 gallon batch I have gotten to around $24 (for an average 6% brew). Turn that into sixers, it's about $3/six pack. Let's assume you could sell said sixpack for $10 (big assumption, but run with me) for a $7 profit. It would take 6428 six-packs to turn a $45k profit. That's 803 typical 5 gallon batches, or 200 20 gallon batches.

That's brewing and selling 20 gallons of beer 4 days a week. The sheer amount of space the fermentation would require takes this WAY out of the realm of homebrewing.

For that reason - not the reason that it couldn't be profitable - I'm agreeing with the shenanigans call.
 

Airborneguy

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My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

Do I care what anyone does? Hell do. Do I get offended when someone posts something like that here? No. But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble.

There are no loopholes in this. You cannot "sell" the bottles which just so happen to have beer in them, you cannot accept a "gift" of money then give a "gift" of beer, etc. etc. etc. There are no loopholes.

There are only TWO ways to exchange money for homebrew that I feel COULD possibly pass the legality test:

1. You make a batch of WORT, sell it to the person in question, and explain to them how to pitch the yeast. THEY pitch the yeast at a later time, with you no where present. I've tried to figure out how this is illegal, and with my level of knowledge, I can't figure how it would be. BUT IT MIGHT BE.

2. Someone buys you the ingredients, for the EXACT price, not a dime extra, and you brew the beer then give it to them with no other exchange taking place. This is a direct cash to ingredients to beer exchange with no profit at all, so I don't see that being illegal either, BUT IT MIGHT BE.

So again, that's my take on it. For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail. I could careless for the someone who knows and does it anyway. That's their own knowing decision to make.
 

agodfrey11

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At first, I was going to argue against this statement. I still dispute that you couldn't turn a profit. I know you absolutely could make a good profit doing this. I don't find the material cost to be large at all. And the equipment is a sunk cost which doesn't factor into a profitability analysis. BUT, the likelihood of $45k...

My cost per 5 gallon batch I have gotten to around $24 (for an average 6% brew). Turn that into sixers, it's about $3/six pack. Let's assume you could sell said sixpack for $10 (big assumption, but run with me) for a $7 profit. It would take 6428 six-packs to turn a $45k profit. That's 803 typical 5 gallon batches, or 200 20 gallon batches.

That's brewing and selling 20 gallons of beer 4 days a week. The sheer amount of space the fermentation would require takes this WAY out of the realm of homebrewing.

For that reason - not the reason that it couldn't be profitable - I'm agreeing with the shenanigans call.
Not to mention all of the other costs: Bottles, Sanitizer, Propane/electricity, etc., etc., etc... Not calling you out because I do agree with your analysis and that $45,000 is shenanigans. I do think it could be profitable, but it would be really tough on the home brew level.
 

Veinman

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My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

Do I care what anyone does? Hell do. Do I get offended when someone posts something like that here? No. But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble.

There are no loopholes in this. You cannot "sell" the bottles which just so happen to have beer in them, you cannot accept a "gift" of money then give a "gift" of beer, etc. etc. etc. There are no loopholes.

There are only TWO ways to exchange money for homebrew that I feel COULD possibly pass the legality test:

1. You make a batch of WORT, sell it to the person in question, and explain to them how to pitch the yeast. THEY pitch the yeast at a later time, with you no where present. I've tried to figure out how this is illegal, and with my level of knowledge, I can't figure how it would be. BUT IT MIGHT BE.

2. Someone buys you the ingredients, for the EXACT price, not a dime extra, and you brew the beer then give it to them with no other exchange taking place. This is a direct cash to ingredients to beer exchange with no profit at all, so I don't see that being illegal either, BUT IT MIGHT BE.

So again, that's my take on it. For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail. I could careless for the someone who knows and does it anyway. That's their own knowing decision to make.
+1 to all of this. The poster may not care about the law but what if others start reading this and getting ideas without knowing about the potential for problems.
Any exchange barter etc. is illegal. You can argue and discuss how the odds of you gettting caught or prosectured or extremely low, you can argue the morality of the law and that it shouldn't be illegal you can acknowledge it's illegal and acknowledge that you're taking your chances however none of that changes the fact that it is illegal. Those pointing this out are doing it for the benefit of everyone who might consider doing something like this.

And for what it's worth I think your 2nd loophole attempt above would be illegal under the Ontario legislation I quoted earlier. In that example the brewer is getting renumeration, something of value (the ingredients), in exchange for beer. The Ontario legislation doesn't make profits illegal but any exchange or renumeration of value in exchange for homebrew.

Further the 1st one would not violate the alcohol laws I quoted but would likely fall under the commercial selling of food which would require other permits, health inspections etc. so it would also be illegal although the penalties would likely be less harsh.
 

jamnw

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cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.
 

Whut

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My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!
Ouch. AHS has a sale going now on their anniversary kits at $20 each. So order five and pay no shipping. I'm just sayin'.

That's why it has to go UPS and/or Fedex or DHL.
DHL, I thought they took their toys and went back home? :D

:off: You rang?

It's Friday, the Tourney is on again tonight. I'm gonna drink some beer! :drunk:

Let the debate continue!
 

MeatyPortion

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cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.
Yup, there's a whole thread on that. He also had a still and was on bad terms with his neighbors.
 

Conan

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My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

...But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble....
Airborneguy, I personally feel like the second quoted paragraph here is the best statement in this thread.

Out of curiosity, what do you do? Lawyer? Kyle
 

cimirie

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jamnw said:
cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.
The difference in that scenario is that homebrewing is 100% illegal in Alabama. Plus, his neighbor turned him in. But, you have a point. It IS possible to get caught by broadcasting on the web.

Sucks for the length of drive you have to make! That would be awful! That $50 kit you purchased, I'll assume was an extract kit which will also up the price quite a bit. Great call on the Fat Tire clone, though. I love that beer. Hope it turns out well for you.
 

bluidshay

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Wait...just so I'm clear, because I've been offered cash too...

If someone, say, had chickens or knit hats or made awesome cookies or had a vegetable garden or made wine or something, and offered me said goods for six packs, that would be illegal?

I of course turned them down and explained to them that I couldn't accept money for homebrew, it was illegal, and they actually asked me if they could trade something with me instead. I told them I'd look into it and here I am. The legalese on that website makes my head spin. I'm just a baby brewer who doesn't want to end up in jail doing a stupid thing that she didn't realize was illegal.
 

Airborneguy

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Wait...just so I'm clear, because I've been offered cash too...

If someone, say, had chickens or knit hats or made awesome cookies or had a vegetable garden or made wine or something, and offered me said goods for six packs, that would be illegal?

I of course turned them down and explained to them that I couldn't accept money for homebrew, it was illegal, and they actually asked me if they could trade something with me instead. I told them I'd look into it and here I am. The legalese on that website makes my head spin. I'm just a baby brewer who doesn't want to end up in jail doing a stupid thing that she didn't realize was illegal.
Illegal. No bartering at all.
 

Airborneguy

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Out of curiosity, what do you do? Lawyer? Kyle
I'm a cop, but my job is in the complaint room office now. I classify and file all the crime reports for my area. So my job involves looking up matters of law. It's what makes me interested in all of this. Take a look at my write up on keeping kegs if you can find it. That one was fun to research.
 

Pilgarlic

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For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail.
Has anyone ever seen this boogie man, this someone who has ended up in jail for the (small time) sale or trade of home brew? Find one, it's the exception that proves the rule (it's a boogie man). Find two, I'm convinced it's a real possibility.
 

Golddiggie

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Has anyone ever seen this boogie man, this someone who has ended up in jail for the (small time) sale or trade of home brew? Find one, it's the exception that proves the rule (it's a boogie man). Find two, I'm convinced it's a real possibility.
Are you willing to be one of those facing felony charges??

IF you're going to do something that's illegal, don't post about it online... IF you have a question about the letter of the law, that can be helped. If you want to debate the legality of not being able to sell your home brew, there's a section for that...

Personally, I just tell people I'm not selling my home brew. I'll let them take a few bottles, provided I get the bottles back (I don't use the cheap bottles, or ones that had purchased brew in them). You can usually gift a certain amount of home brew, per year, depending on your states laws. Look up the laws for your state here and then you'll know what you can legally do there. For other countries, just be sure to stay within the limits of the law. It would really suck if you were to do something illegal, get caught, and have them come down HARD on you (to make an example)... I just don't think it's worth the amount of pain you'll face by doing something that is illegal.

Ranting about not liking the law won't do any good. IF you want to get it changed, do something about it.. If you want to debate it, open a thread in that section.
 

Pilgarlic

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Golddiggie, you quoted me, but then responded in a way that suggests you didn't read my post.
 

Pilgarlic

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Uh huh. No arrest, no cuffs, no jail. I guess I should repeat my question (although I thought I'd worded it carefully enough): Has anyone ever seen this boogie man, this someone who has ended up in jail for the (small time) sale or trade of home brew?
 

Airborneguy

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Has anyone ever seen this boogie man, this someone who has ended up in jail for the (small time) sale or trade of home brew? Find one, it's the exception that proves the rule (it's a boogie man). Find two, I'm convinced it's a real possibility.
As more than one poster has stated, there is a difference between actual enforcement and the letter of the law. The letter of the law is what I and others are concerned with uninformed readers getting the point of. What is being done through actual enforcement is what everyone who considers selling homebrew has to weigh before they make their decision.

You can be facetious and try to make us look silly with your little question, but mine in return is straightforward and has one right answer: Is selling homebrew illegal?

If I as a law enforcement officer encountered the illegal sale of homebrew, I would take action which, in my case, would result in overtime, which would put extra money in my pocket, which ironically, would partly be spent on homebrew (but I digress). My point is, am I going to investigate homebrewers to find avenues for attaining this overtime? No. But if a dime is dropped, or knowledge comes to light in another way, you better believe that action would be taken.
 

Veinman

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Uh huh. No arrest, no cuffs, no jail. I guess I should repeat my question (although I thought I'd worded it carefully enough): Has anyone ever seen this boogie man, this someone who has ended up in jail for the (small time) sale or trade of home brew?
I guess we are going to continue to debate different points. You seem to be arguing that since we can't prove someone has been charged under the law that its ok to do. I am arguing what the law IS, that it IS illegal to sell, barter or receive renumeration for homebrew in Ontario.
 

Pilgarlic

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Airborne, you said this: "For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail". Mommies do that. They make up a threat "(the boogie man), and then protect their terrified kids from it. You do that to adults, you make yourself look silly. Oh, you can stop now, Mommy.
 

Pilgarlic

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Veinman, I don't think you will find anywhere in my post anything about whether it's alright to do. I don't really think there's any dispute about what the law is.
 

Revvy

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I guess having the cops show up, confiscate your gear and several gallons of your (or your homebrew club's) beer which they probably dumped out (or drank) getting your name smeared across the papers as a "moonshiner" and maybe getting into trouble with your school, or work, and maybe paying a fine, isn't getting hand cuffed and tossed in jail, but still it's the law in action and personally loosing in my case thousands of dollars worth of gear (which who knows if you end up getting back without paying legal fees) and hundreds of bucks worth of beer, would personally really suck. But hey, that's me.....
 

Pilgarlic

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Lotsa maybes there, Rev, I'm still looking for an arrest (or even a fine, so far).
 

Airborneguy

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Airborne, you said this: "For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail". Mommies do that. They make up a threat "(the boogie man), and then protect their terrified kids from it. You do that to adults, you make yourself look silly. Oh, you can stop now, Mommy.
Let's be real. You're an antagonist. You have not stated a position that would explain why you care that some posters are interested in making sure others have proper legal knowledge. If you want to sell and need to justify this position, say it. Otherwise, your argument doesn't stand up to mine because I have already said I could careless. My only goal is to make sure that when "loopholes" are pointed out, posters who may be susceptible to that knowledge hear the proper response.

So as an antagonist, you're pointless. Calling me mommy didn't get the reaction you hoped it would, trust me. Try something more interesting if like, I actually do like arguing (check out the debate forum). But you just haven't risen to the level where I would become interested in arguing with you.
 

Revvy

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Lotsa maybes there, Rev, I'm still looking for an arrest (or even a fine, so far).
WTF do you mean "maybes" did you bother to read what happened to these guys? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/ohio-university-homebrew-festival-shut-down-140105/ Seems to me there were no "maybes" about their beer getting seized by the cops, along with the kegs they were in.....I think you care more about picking a fight than you care about the truth.

Wtf is a maybe about what I said, when the article in the thread starts out

Undercover officers from the Athens office of the Ohio Investigative Unit shut down festivities at Ohio University's Homebrew Festival at OU's McCracken Field Saturday, confiscating 13 kegs of homemade beer at an event whose organizers hoped to change negative stereotypes about student drinking in Athens.
And Mr Arkansas homebrewer did have all his gear taken and did end up in handcuffs. Do you need a link to that thread too?
 

Pilgarlic

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I posed a question. Can we all agree that there is no REAL threat of arrest and jail here? That is a question of real interest to home brewers, and I think that distorting or exaggerating the possibility of it REALLY happening is a disservice. So, if that question is now settled, can we all GRANT that it is illegal and GRANT that we know of no case of REAL prosecution of it, anywhere, ever? Everyone's granting those realities render the arguments, be they arcane, informed, lay, professional, subtle, fallacious or facetious... mostly simply irrelevant.
 

Pilgarlic

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"and maybe getting into trouble with your school, or work, and maybe paying a fine". MAYBE I misunderstood?
 

Pilgarlic

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Revvy, if you do have a link about an Arkansas homebrewer being cuffed and arrested for the small time trading or selling of brew I would like to see it, yes. That would be useful.
 
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I've enjoyed the discussion in the thread despite some of the trolls....

I wish the trolls would stick with DRMM, debate, or even better: HBC ;)

Take home messages:

- selling alcohol is illegal
- bartering with alcohol is pretty much illegal (depends on how bartering is defined and/or documented)
- selling homebrew may not be a "America's Most Wanted" offense, but that's not the point; and it certainly is not endorsed/encouraged on this forum

:mug:
 

GetLooseontheGoose

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I posed a question. Can we all agree that there is no REAL threat of arrest and jail here? That is a question of real interest to home brewers, and I think that distorting or exaggerating the possibility of it REALLY happening is a disservice. So, if that question is now settled, can we all GRANT that it is illegal and GRANT that we know of no case of REAL prosecution of it, anywhere, ever? Everyone's granting those realities render the arguments, be they arcane, informed, lay, professional, subtle, fallacious or facetious... mostly simply irrelevant.
No, I do not think we can agree that there is no real threat of arrest for selling your homebrew. No one is distorting or exaggerating the possibilities. It is clear, cut, and dry; if you break the law and are caught you will face lawful action.

As you have been asking for some kind of proof here it is:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21769&start=24 - This guy was arrested, and his equipment was confiscated because he brewed beer and distilled whiskey in Alabama where homebrewing is illegal. go to pg 9...to see pictures of "alleged still"

I see that this is not for selling/bartering homebrew, however this was an illegal act that was prosecuted in the name of homebrewing.

Here is another:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F1071FFC395D14738DDDA10894D9405B828EF1D3

This happened before any of us were born, but it also states the fact: Break the law, get caught, pay the price

here is a story from Oregon last year:

http://brewpublic.com/beer-events/o...rrest”-according-to-new-legal-interpretation/

no one was arrested, but they were not able to hold their competition because of the unclear written law and overall perception.

This guy was arrested for selling home made wine:

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FunFacts/ItsTheLaw.html
Look at the box on the lower right.


Last one:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/2998038/Bar-owner-charged-over-home-brew-fraud

This guy owned a bar/vineyard, but was arrested for selling home brewed spirits.

I think the biggest thing for me is Integrity. I know that it is unlawful to sell, so regardless of anything else I do not sell my homebrew.
 

Pilgarlic

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Look, I never suggested anyone ought to do it. I said, and I maintain, that to suggest "If you do it, you're gonna get caught, you're going to jail." Is misleading and silly. Especially when NOBODY has been able to come up with a single case of ANYONE having been arrested, much less jailed, for selling or bartering a small quantity. NOT ONE CASE. If we can't agree that represents "no real threat", someone's torturing logic.
Again, I'm not suggesting anyone do it. I'm not saying it's right. I don't CARE whether anyone does it. But b.s. is b.s. and to suggest there's a real risk of arrest is b.s. Unless you're aware of a parallel universe where that sort of thing happens.
 
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Where did anyone say you're going to go to jail? All I've said is that it's illegal (we all agree) and it's against forum policy to encourage illegal activity.
 
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You seem to be quite the literalist; yet I still don't see anywhere in his post where he say "you will end up in jail." :rolleyes:

we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail
is way different than
do this, do time
You seem to twist words to fit your defense....

So, twist away :D
 

Pilgarlic

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Now THERE's a distinction without a difference. I'm not defending anything. Although there seem to have been many willing to defend the silly suggestion that anyone will ever be prosecuted for this. I'm glad to see you backing away from that preposterous suggestion, though, AZ. Reason looks rather good on you.
 
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