Bottle guy wants to buy my beer

[bernerbrau]

Jesus..90% of you are reading into this like we're producing and distributing cocaine.

Do we need permits to give cash for birthdays or other reasons...doing people favors etc?

If I give my beer to someone and they give me cash. It could be reimbursement for my time, my materials and not the actual, physical beer. Or gas money for meeting them somewhere.

Most of you sound like the people who read the New testament and believe that the Book of Revelations means the worlds ending soon

Now if your sole purpose is to turn a profit on selling home brew, then by all means it would be circumventing the laws.

Forum policy is forum policy. You don't discuss the sale of homebrew, except in contexts where it's clear you're not actually doing it, like bemoaning its illegality or discussing ways to get your local lawmakers to support changing the existing laws, or unless you've gone pro or live in a country that permits it. You may think it's harmless but if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.

 

[FatherJack]

Exactly just cause something is illegal doesn't mean that the feds are gonna come knocking at your door cause you sold or bartered a few bottles. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Marijuana is illegal but in most states if you get stopped with a dime bag they usually look the other way, why? because it's not worth the time and effort to prosecute you for a miniscule amount.

...yet.

Never come between Uncle Sam and what is "rightfully" his.

 

[Pilgarlic]

if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.

C'mon. Find me ONE parallel example. Just ONE and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's balderdash.

 

[bob1852]

C'mon. Find me ONE parallel example. Just ONE and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's balderdash.

How 'bout the FBI/ICE shutting down those websites that provide source/links to traffic illegal merchandise?

There's been threads in the debate forum about it...

example: http://www.extremeelvis.com/

And I'm sure there's websites saying "oh come on; copyright infringement isn't that big of a deal..."

 

[Desert_Sky]

Forum policy is forum policy. You don't discuss the sale of homebrew, except in contexts where it's clear you're not actually doing it, like bemoaning its illegality or discussing ways to get your local lawmakers to support changing the existing laws, or unless you've gone pro or live in a country that permits it. You may think it's harmless but if someone from the beverage or law-enforcement industries comes on here and decides to press criminal charges against HBT for encouraging illegal activity, using the posts where people freely admit to breaking the law as evidence, it would likely spell the end of HBT.

whatever

 

[Pilgarlic]

example: http://www.extremeelvis.com/

Not a parallel situation. This site was distributing copyrighted material. Repeat: balderdash.

 

[bob1852]

example: http://www.extremeelvis.com/

Not a parallel situation. This site was distributing copyrighted material. Repeat: balderdash.

Okay; I'll give you that one...

But, HBT policy = balderdash?

 

[cimirie]

But, HBT policy = balderdash?

I've said it before... If said policies are based on nothing of substantive value, yeah.

For truth, talking about and endorsing are two totally different things. This policy doesn't really effect me (mainly because until I go pro, my family is the only group drinking my beer).

But in principle, I object to any forum banning a related topic because of either 1) fear of a boogeyman crackdown 2) dislike/distaste of a topic. ESPECIALLY on topics established members of the community have expressed interest in discussing.

 

[Conan]

....
But in principle, I object to any forum banning a related topic because of either 1) fear of a boogeyman crackdown 2) dislike/distaste of a topic. ESPECIALLY on topics established members of the community have expressed interest in discussing.

But we have a debate/ critical issues section just for discussing distasteful topics. I realize this particular one is still blanketed by the illegal activities prohibition. Also, I'm not disagreeing that we should be able to talk about these issues- but if we could do so openly on all areas of the site many of us would be annoyed by it. I'm on several forums, as are many members here I'm sure, covering multiple interests. All of them institute the 'touchy issues' rule, just like HBT.

I feel like the OP wasn't intending on this thread morphing to it's current state, but it was inevitable. Like any group of friends, there's certain topics that should be avoided. Only carnivore at a hippie fest? Don't bring up McDonald's. I know when on HB, not to admit sale of alcohol (not that I do), along with a few other topics that needn't be brought up. Solution: just don't, because this is what happens. No complaint intended with that- just callin' it as I've accepted it.

Cimirie, I'm not aiming at you- your quote just worked for my post.
Kyle

 

[bob1852]

No one's saying we shouldn't talk about the laws pertaining to homebrewing......

What I believe is frowned upon are statements like: "I don't give **** if it's illegal, I know that, and I'm still gonna do it; so lets talk about how to get away with it."

 

[JebCkr]

I'm sure someone has said it, but sell him the bottles and "gift" him the contents of said bottles.

 

[MeatyPortion]

Keep whatever you do on the down low and don't post about it here or anywhere else. Best advice you'll get.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

My favorite post was from someone on here, don't remember who or where,

but they recommended just putting a donation box on the kegerator. I would love to see that in place.

That was me. I'll post a pic when I get a chance ;-)

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Even if the admin isn't concerned about the fuzz shutting down the website, there's still good reason to keep discussion of illegal activity off the board -- for the good of the hobby.

Although homebrewing is getting more popular among the general population, there are still a lot of groups that are anti-alcohol/pro-temperance that find suspicion in anything alcohol related. I mean, prohibition ended decades ago and we still have states where homebrewing is illegal or barely legalized. If people looking for information or dirt on homebrewing come on to the biggest internet site discussing it and find people talking about ways to break the law, that's going to add fuel to the fire to make the law more restrictive. It might make it harder for HBS to open up in some areas. It might make homebrewers targets of nonsense police raids as being "distillers". If instead we want to see the laws around homebrewing relaxed, we are going to win far more battles by presenting the image that it is a fun, law-abiding hobby than a haven for rum-running criminals.

 

[chevelle383]

GEEEEEEEZ.. Seriously people. All this over a guy wanting to buy a couple of sixpacks. AND....more to the point, He said he told the guy he couldnt sell him any, that he had to give it away!. IM sure the ATF is writng this all down as we speak. In fact I bet they are on thier way over there right now and bout to shut this whole website down with the flip of a switch. Grab a beer and chill people.
The ATF can easily spend about $10,000 an hour on an investigation, for what?

 

[Golddiggie]

Seemed like the guy who provides the bottles is wanting much more than a few... The OP has already told him it's not legal for him to sell him the brew.

Personally, I would just be very, very careful about something like this... I think it would be safer to teach the other person how to brew his own batches, even if it's using the OP's recipe. Of course, there could be educational costs associated with such teaching.

 

[chevelle383]

I mean you cant go around here saying " i dont care about the cops and all that stuff" But seriously, from What I could see NO ONE said they had intentions of selling. Personally, I would never sell my beer . Its too much work for a 12 gallon batch to even be profitable if you wanted to. Id tell him pound salt, and you can come over and "hangout". There is the donation jar. And I dont even wanna hear about if thats legal or not. Thats about as much as selling beer as you buying all the beer for the night, and your buddies chipping in later. There aint no way in HELL ANYONE could get arrested or even fined for that.

 

[agodfrey11]

I cant see how selling would be worth it. Once you take in time, ingredients (grain, hops, water, propane, electricity, etc.), and work, you would really only be making, at best, $5-10 hour. Unless you were really, really efficient and brewing large batches then it wouldn't be worth it. And if you got to that point wouldn't you do better to just open a brewery...

Just my opinion...

 

[boo boo]

Had you not posted it on the internet, no one would ever know.

We still don't know. Canada is a big place and anyway, just who the hell is he anyway? Not like the feds are going looking at a homebrewer who gives/barters a little brew away for the lost excise tax.

Just saying.

 

[COLObrewer]

The OP is a mountie!!!!

 

[jamnw]

I don't see how it could be profitable to sell HB.
The equipment and ingredients are not cheap.

Personally, I think the guy boasting about making $45K is full of bull.

I am no business man, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it takes a lot of brew to break even.
I would bet that a 6pk would cost at least $8 to make a small profit, after paying for your equipment and accounting for your time.

From what I read on here, I don't think that "MOST" home brewers get the consistency of a professional brew.

Bottom line I would hate to wake up every morning looking at "Bubba" instead of my wife because I thought the law was insignificant. We are in a recession, and governments tend to enforce the insignificant when they are wanting for money.

 

[cimirie]

I don't see how it could be profitable to sell HB.
The equipment and ingredients are not cheap.

Personally, I think the guy boasting about making $45K is full of bull.

I am no business man, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it takes a lot of brew to break even.
I would bet that a 6pk would cost at least $8 to make a small profit, after paying for your equipment and accounting for your time.

At first, I was going to argue against this statement. I still dispute that you couldn't turn a profit. I know you absolutely could make a good profit doing this. I don't find the material cost to be large at all. And the equipment is a sunk cost which doesn't factor into a profitability analysis. BUT, the likelihood of $45k...

My cost per 5 gallon batch I have gotten to around $24 (for an average 6% brew). Turn that into sixers, it's about $3/six pack. Let's assume you could sell said sixpack for $10 (big assumption, but run with me) for a $7 profit. It would take 6428 six-packs to turn a $45k profit. That's 803 typical 5 gallon batches, or 200 20 gallon batches.

That's brewing and selling 20 gallons of beer 4 days a week. The sheer amount of space the fermentation would require takes this WAY out of the realm of homebrewing.

For that reason - not the reason that it couldn't be profitable - I'm agreeing with the shenanigans call.

 

[Airborneguy]

My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

Do I care what anyone does? Hell do. Do I get offended when someone posts something like that here? No. But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble.

There are no loopholes in this. You cannot "sell" the bottles which just so happen to have beer in them, you cannot accept a "gift" of money then give a "gift" of beer, etc. etc. etc. There are no loopholes.

There are only TWO ways to exchange money for homebrew that I feel COULD possibly pass the legality test:

1. You make a batch of WORT, sell it to the person in question, and explain to them how to pitch the yeast. THEY pitch the yeast at a later time, with you no where present. I've tried to figure out how this is illegal, and with my level of knowledge, I can't figure how it would be. BUT IT MIGHT BE.

2. Someone buys you the ingredients, for the EXACT price, not a dime extra, and you brew the beer then give it to them with no other exchange taking place. This is a direct cash to ingredients to beer exchange with no profit at all, so I don't see that being illegal either, BUT IT MIGHT BE.

So again, that's my take on it. For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail. I could careless for the someone who knows and does it anyway. That's their own knowing decision to make.

 

[agodfrey11]

At first, I was going to argue against this statement. I still dispute that you couldn't turn a profit. I know you absolutely could make a good profit doing this. I don't find the material cost to be large at all. And the equipment is a sunk cost which doesn't factor into a profitability analysis. BUT, the likelihood of $45k...

My cost per 5 gallon batch I have gotten to around $24 (for an average 6% brew). Turn that into sixers, it's about $3/six pack. Let's assume you could sell said sixpack for $10 (big assumption, but run with me) for a $7 profit. It would take 6428 six-packs to turn a $45k profit. That's 803 typical 5 gallon batches, or 200 20 gallon batches.

That's brewing and selling 20 gallons of beer 4 days a week. The sheer amount of space the fermentation would require takes this WAY out of the realm of homebrewing.

For that reason - not the reason that it couldn't be profitable - I'm agreeing with the shenanigans call.

Not to mention all of the other costs: Bottles, Sanitizer, Propane/electricity, etc., etc., etc... Not calling you out because I do agree with your analysis and that $45,000 is shenanigans. I do think it could be profitable, but it would be really tough on the home brew level.

 

[Veinman]

My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

Do I care what anyone does? Hell do. Do I get offended when someone posts something like that here? No. But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble.

There are no loopholes in this. You cannot "sell" the bottles which just so happen to have beer in them, you cannot accept a "gift" of money then give a "gift" of beer, etc. etc. etc. There are no loopholes.

There are only TWO ways to exchange money for homebrew that I feel COULD possibly pass the legality test:

1. You make a batch of WORT, sell it to the person in question, and explain to them how to pitch the yeast. THEY pitch the yeast at a later time, with you no where present. I've tried to figure out how this is illegal, and with my level of knowledge, I can't figure how it would be. BUT IT MIGHT BE.

2. Someone buys you the ingredients, for the EXACT price, not a dime extra, and you brew the beer then give it to them with no other exchange taking place. This is a direct cash to ingredients to beer exchange with no profit at all, so I don't see that being illegal either, BUT IT MIGHT BE.

So again, that's my take on it. For all the people who think people like myself, and Revvy, and AZ, etc, are tight-a**es, we're doing it so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't end up in jail. I could careless for the someone who knows and does it anyway. That's their own knowing decision to make.

+1 to all of this. The poster may not care about the law but what if others start reading this and getting ideas without knowing about the potential for problems.
Any exchange barter etc. is illegal. You can argue and discuss how the odds of you gettting caught or prosectured or extremely low, you can argue the morality of the law and that it shouldn't be illegal you can acknowledge it's illegal and acknowledge that you're taking your chances however none of that changes the fact that it is illegal. Those pointing this out are doing it for the benefit of everyone who might consider doing something like this.

And for what it's worth I think your 2nd loophole attempt above would be illegal under the Ontario legislation I quoted earlier. In that example the brewer is getting renumeration, something of value (the ingredients), in exchange for beer. The Ontario legislation doesn't make profits illegal but any exchange or renumeration of value in exchange for homebrew.

Further the 1st one would not violate the alcohol laws I quoted but would likely fall under the commercial selling of food which would require other permits, health inspections etc. so it would also be illegal although the penalties would likely be less harsh.

 

[jamnw]

cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.

 

[Whut]

My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

Ouch. AHS has a sale going now on their anniversary kits at $20 each. So order five and pay no shipping. I'm just sayin'.

That's why it has to go UPS and/or Fedex or DHL.

DHL, I thought they took their toys and went back home?

whatever

You rang?

It's Friday, the Tourney is on again tonight. I'm gonna drink some beer!

Let the debate continue!

 

[MeatyPortion]

cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.

Yup, there's a whole thread on that. He also had a still and was on bad terms with his neighbors.

 

[Conan]

My only reason for pointing out the illegality of various posters' ideas that regularly pop up here is that I am in position to be 100% sure of the illegality, due to my profession, and I feel I might be doing a service to someone on here by pointing that out.

...But just as we try to help a new brewer figure out why his beer tastes like crap, I feel like we also should be pointing out what a new brewer might not realize can get him in trouble, serious trouble....

Airborneguy, I personally feel like the second quoted paragraph here is the best statement in this thread.

Out of curiosity, what do you do? Lawyer? Kyle

 

[cimirie]

cimire: I should have clarified, being new to the hobby and no LHBS, I have to purchase everything online or drive 2 hours one way to the nearest store.
My last kit cost me $50.74 shipped. Fat Tire Clone. Which I brewed today!

I read a post on here a few weeks ago about a guy from Alabama who bragged and posted some pics (???) of his brewing. Isn't he awaiting trial now?
Yes it is far-fetched, but it could happen.

The difference in that scenario is that homebrewing is 100% illegal in Alabama. Plus, his neighbor turned him in. But, you have a point. It IS possible to get caught by broadcasting on the web.

Sucks for the length of drive you have to make! That would be awful! That $50 kit you purchased, I'll assume was an extract kit which will also up the price quite a bit. Great call on the Fat Tire clone, though. I love that beer. Hope it turns out well for you.