Bootleg Biology OSLO

[couchsending]

Am I’m the only one that gets this weird mouthfeel in every Kveik strain? Like this mid pallet mouth coating sensation? I don’t get it in any beer I’ve made with traditional yeast of any kind. Probably used more than 50 different Sacch strains by now..

It doesn’t linger but it’s a totally different sensation than normal Sacch yeast. It’s like some sort of glycerol production from the yeast? Not sure if that’s due to the high fermentation temps or what.

I’ve used Voss, Hornendal, Oslo, the Simonaitis (not technically Kveik), Hot Head. All have the same weird mouthfeel to them..

To me this sensation has no place in a lager. You could pass off 1056 fermented at 55 for a lager before the beer I brewed with Oslo. I don’t do any of the short lager methods though. Everything is slow and low and long lagering times so I might not be the best judge.

 

[isomerization]

Am I’m the only one that gets this weird mouthfeel in every Kveik strain? Like this mid pallet mouth coating sensation? I don’t get it in any beer I’ve made with traditional yeast of any kind. Probably used more than 50 different Sacch strains by now..

It doesn’t linger but it’s a totally different sensation than normal Sacch yeast. It’s like some sort of glycerol production from the yeast? Not sure if that’s due to the high fermentation temps or what.

I’ve used Voss, Hornendal, Oslo, the Simonaitis (not technically Kveik), Hot Head. All have the same weird mouthfeel to them..

To me this sensation has no place in a lager. You could pass off 1056 fermented at 55 for a lager before the beer I brewed with Oslo. I don’t do any of the short lager methods though. Everything is slow and low and long lagering times so I might not be the best judge.

You also seem to have a very sensitive pallet, based on past posts. Doesn’t mean it’s not real (quite the opposite really!), but could be that others aren’t picking that up.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I hate to be that guy, but the word y'all want is "palate."

Pallet = what boxes are stacked on
Palette = what paint is dabbed on
Palate = what you taste food with

English is stupid.

 

[couchsending]

Yup I screw that one up every time

 

[TandemTails]

An update on my tart marzen with oslo....

So several posts back I mentioned that I brewed a small ~2.5 gallon kitchen sink style beer to see of Oslo threw tartness in that too. I used some slurry from the marzen so it would have any contaminants that the marzen had as well.

Well, 11 days post pitch I tried it and there is no off flavor at all. It's a really clean lager like beer just like Oslo is supposed to produce. I guess I farked up my water profile pretty bad for the marzen to get that tartness.

I'll be brewing with Oslo again and will hopefully not run into any more issues

 

[cmhaynes]

Am I’m the only one that gets this weird mouthfeel in every Kveik strain? Like this mid pallet mouth coating sensation? I don’t get it in any beer I’ve made with traditional yeast of any kind. Probably used more than 50 different Sacch strains by now..

It doesn’t linger but it’s a totally different sensation than normal Sacch yeast. It’s like some sort of glycerol production from the yeast? Not sure if that’s due to the high fermentation temps or what.

I’ve used Voss, Hornendal, Oslo, the Simonaitis (not technically Kveik), Hot Head. All have the same weird mouthfeel to them..

To me this sensation has no place in a lager. You could pass off 1056 fermented at 55 for a lager before the beer I brewed with Oslo. I don’t do any of the short lager methods though. Everything is slow and low and long lagering times so I might not be the best judge.

I get that as well. I haven't used Oslo, but I've used Voss, Simonaitis and Hornindal, and all of them produced beers with that thick mouthfeel for me. I made some sub-5% beers, and there's no way you would have expected that based on the mouthfeel. TYB's Voss was the worst for that in my experience.

 

[couchsending]

For those of you that still have Facebook is there any discussion about this on MTF? It’s a different type of mouthfeel you would get from high FG or lots of Na, or even excessive diacetyl. I can’t really explain it. But it has some sort of slickness to it like diacetyl I guess but it’s still different.

 

[Coffeeturnal]

I haven't noticed this sensation that you're describing. Though, that could be just that I haven't really paid attention to it/I haven't learned to notice these things.

I didn't really recall any discussions on MtF regarding this subject but just did a quick search on "kveik mouthfeel". While no one seems to have described it in the same terms as you, there does seem to be some interest in why kveik-fermented beers feel "bigger" than they are. Paraphrasing a few posts I read by some very knowledgeable people: there seems to be evidence that thermotolerance and overproduction of glycerol are correlated traits in yeast. These statements were tempered with a note that these studies were not complete, nor peer-reviewed.

 

[Kenmoron]

An update on my tart marzen with oslo....

So several posts back I mentioned that I brewed a small ~2.5 gallon kitchen sink style beer to see of Oslo threw tartness in that too. I used some slurry from the marzen so it would have any contaminants that the marzen had as well.

Well, 11 days post pitch I tried it and there is no off flavor at all. It's a really clean lager like beer just like Oslo is supposed to produce. I guess I farked up my water profile pretty bad for the marzen to get that tartness.

I'll be brewing with Oslo again and will hopefully not run into any more issues

I Plated my Oslo two days ago...it's still early too determine for sure but so far nothing abnormal looking on the agar media.

@TandemTails you mentioned that one of the variables from your non-tart and tart beers was your water chemistry additions which got me thinking.

Next, I will be checking some final beer pH's and comparing to other kveik and non-kveik beers to see if anything looks off. I brew with very soft water and am wondering if those not getting that tartness have at least some sort of buffer capacity to counteract the added acidity from kveik (and in particular, Oslo).

 

[TandemTails]

I Plated my Oslo two days ago...it's still early too determine for sure but so far nothing abnormal looking on the agar media.

@TandemTails you mentioned that one of the variables from your non-tart and tart beers was your water chemistry additions which got me thinking.

Next, I will be checking some final beer pH's and comparing to other kveik and non-kveik beers to see if anything looks off. I brew with very soft water and am wondering if those not getting that tartness have at least some sort of buffer capacity to counteract the added acidity from kveik (and in particular, Oslo).

I'll be interested to hear the results of the pH tests. My mash and end of sparge pH for the tart beer were both right at target (5.3ish). I didn't take a reading of the final beer though.

 

[Kenmoron]

I'll be interested to hear the results of the pH tests. My mash and end of sparge pH for the tart beer were both right at target (5.3ish). I didn't take a reading of the final beer though.

There's some info going around that kveik gives a little more acid compared to traditional strains. One brewery I know that brews quite a bit of kveik-fermented beer actually adds buffering salts post boil prior to fermentation in order to counteract the final acidic pH. I'm just curious if Oslo is especially susceptible to acidifying. I haven't noticed the tartness with Voss or Hornindal...although, those beers were generally hoppier so maybe the perceived acid blended better with those brews (acid complements fruitiness) compared to the german-like "lagers" I've been trying to do with Oslo. In fact, lager strains themselves typically result in an even higher final pH than ale strains.

 

[Kenmoron]

Well, no abnormal growth on the media at all from my Oslo package...

However, as I had predicted, the final beer pH was much lower than my other beers...

Red ale - US04 yeast: pH 4.09
Blonde ale - Nottingham ale yeast: pH 4.05
SMaSH pale ale - Voss kveik: pH 3.90
Rosemary IPA - Voss kveik: pH 4.29
Pale ale - Wy1056: pH 4.28
Festbier - Oslo: pH 3.79

Just remember, pH is logarithmic. Oslo definitely came in the lowest, and interestingly so did my other kveik (Voss). The IPA with Voss I would assume isn't as low of a pH because it was dry-hopped (hops will increase final pH). I would also assume I didn't pick up the SMaSH as being overly tart since it played well with the citrus/orange character of the amarillo hops I used.

The next time I open one of my Oslo Festbiers I will try to micro-dose with some bicarb just to see if that changes anything flavorwise (although, pH and salt adjustments should definitely be done prior to fermentation to avoid 'minerally' flavors...but we'll see!).

I have very soft water, so I would assume I don't have enough buffering capacity to fight the drastic pH decreases from Oslo (or other kveiks? when not dry-hopping). My theory is that the so-called tartness that some people are getting is from this. The next time I decide to brew with Oslo I will either 1.) add some bicarb post-boil/prior to pitch (no idea how much), 2.) brew a dry-hopped beer to counteract the pH, or 3.) try a lower fermentation temp (perhaps Oslo may throw acid differently at varying temperatures?).

 

[duelerx]

Well, no abnormal growth on the media at all from my Oslo package...

View attachment 639970

However, as I had predicted, the final beer pH was much lower than my other beers...

Red ale - US04 yeast: pH 4.09
Blonde ale - Nottingham ale yeast: pH 4.05
SMaSH pale ale - Voss kveik: pH 3.90
Rosemary IPA - Voss kveik: pH 4.29
Pale ale - Wy1056: pH 4.28
Festbier - Oslo: pH 3.79

Just remember, pH is logarithmic (pH of 3.8 is twice as acidic as pH of 3.9). Oslo definitely came in the lowest, and interestingly so did my other kveik (Voss). The IPA with Voss I would assume isn't as low of a pH because it was dry-hopped (hops will increase final pH). I would also assume I didn't pick up the SMaSH as being overly tart since it played well with the citrus/orange character of the amarillo hops I used.

The next time I open one of my Oslo Festbiers I will try to micro-dose with some bicarb just to see if that changes anything flavorwise (although, pH and salt adjustments should definitely be done prior to fermentation to avoid 'minerally' flavors...but we'll see!).

I have very soft water, so I would assume I don't have enough buffering capacity to fight the drastic pH decreases from Oslo (or other kveiks? when not dry-hopping). My theory is that the so-called tartness that some people are getting is from this. The next time I decide to brew with Oslo I will either 1.) add some bicarb post-boil/prior to pitch (no idea how much), 2.) brew a dry-hopped beer to counteract the pH, or 3.) try a lower fermentation temp (perhaps Oslo may throw acid differently at varying temperatures?).

These same results are mentioned by Long Beach Beer Lab on Experimental Brewing Podcast using other Kveik strains as well.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

the final beer pH was much lower than my other beers...

Red ale - US04 yeast: pH 4.09
Blonde ale - Nottingham ale yeast: pH 4.05
SMaSH pale ale - Voss kveik: pH 3.90
Rosemary IPA - Voss kveik: pH 4.29
Pale ale - Wy1056: pH 4.28
Festbier - Oslo: pH 3.79

There's a range of factors to consider, but per Murphys :

The acceptable range of pH for cask conditioned beers is 3·7 – 4·1

So to British eyes your problem is that Voss and 1056 aren't making your beer acid enough!

While national tastes play their part, I suspect that some of the problems people have are a combination of excessive force carbonation introducing too much carbonic acid, coupled with RO water without enough salts to buffer it. Don't forget that kveiks have evolved without ever seeing a cylinder of CO2, they've adapted to an environment where the beer is all either cask- or bottle-conditioned.

 

[kccoop07]

Just remember, pH is logarithmic (pH of 3.8 is twice as acidic as pH of 3.9).

Thanks for the info! One minor point, I think 3.8 should be ~26% more acidic than 3.9, as 1.26^10=10

 

[Kenmoron]

Thanks for the info! One minor point, I think 3.8 should be ~26% more acidic than 3.9, as 1.26^10=10

Yeah, totally right...Forgetting all my gen chem haha. I just removed that blurb.

So to British eyes your problem is that Voss and 1056 aren't making your beer acid enough!

While national tastes play their part, I suspect that some of the problems people have are a combination of excessive force carbonation introducing too much carbonic acid, coupled with RO water without enough salts to buffer it. Don't forget that kveiks have evolved without ever seeing a cylinder of CO2, they've adapted to an environment where the beer is all either cask- or bottle-conditioned.

Well, the beer that used voss with a very small dry hop was 3.9, whereas the one with a lot of hops and a large dry hop was higher, at 4.29. Most hoppy beer pHs I've seen are generally quite high (around 4.3ish to 4.6ish). I'm not sure if it is the hops interacting with the yeast making them produce less acid or the hops themselves changing the pH but it seems to be a factor.

In regards to appropriate pH I believe that I've read Gordon Strong recommends around pH 4.4 or below. In fact, lager yeasts often produce pHs in the mid 4s. My whole point in doing this was because I can taste how acidic my Oslo Festbier is, and it is not good for the style. One thing that I still can't wrap my brain around is the fact that my final gravity sample prior to bottling tasted amazing! I wish I had a pH from that sample...to my senses the acidification happened while bottle conditioning, and I know dissolved CO2 will not have that great of an affect.

 

[couchsending]

Hops increase pH, especially when dry hopping.

4.5 or below if recommended for shelf stability purposes.

Pretty sure my pitch of Oslo was infected somehow. Not saying that it wasn’t my fault but I’ve never encountered flavors/aromas like this in over 300 batches of beer I’ve made. The easiest way to describe it is plastic. The other pouch I bought at the same time produced a very similar flavor/aroma brewed by someone else using completely different gear/water/grains/etc.

 

[Kenmoron]

So I just cracked open another Oslo festbier original pH of 3.79 to see what increasing the pH did to it. I mixed up a bunch of Na bicarb in a small glass of water and used a pipette to introduce doses of about 10 drops at a time. Each dose bumped it up about 0.1-0.2 pH. I tasted after each addition, and as the pH went up the aroma and flavor noticeably improved! I stopped dosing once I got to pH 4.68 (upper end of what beers would naturally finish at). But I was happy with how it tasted even at that high of a pH. I had a control sample sitting next to me that was undosed, and man, this thing is way better at pH 4.68 compared to 3.79! It's still a bit "minerally", but I bet if I were to have buffered a bit prior to pitching Oslo this would have been a better beer!

I guess I have to hand out small packets of pre-measured Na bicarb whenever I give out a bottle! lol

 

[TandemTails]

So I just cracked open another Oslo festbier original pH of 3.79 to see what increasing the pH did to it. I mixed up a bunch of Na bicarb in a small glass of water and used a pipette to introduce doses of about 10 drops at a time. Each dose bumped it up about 0.1-0.2 pH. I tasted after each addition, and as the pH went up the aroma and flavor noticeably improved! I stopped dosing once I got to pH 4.68 (upper end of what beers would naturally finish at). But I was happy with how it tasted even at that high of a pH. I had a control sample sitting next to me that was undosed, and man, this thing is way better at pH 4.68 compared to 3.79! It's still a bit "minerally", but I bet if I were to have buffered a bit prior to pitching Oslo this would have been a better beer!

I guess I have to hand out small packets of pre-measured Na bicarb whenever I give out a bottle! lol

That's really interesting. I can't do any experiments with mine since I already added 32oz tart cherry and 32oz cranberry juice to my 5 gallon keg. It tastes amazing with the fruit since it works well with the tartness.

Thanks for doing all the ph testing and research into this. I always start with RO water and build up my profile from that. I'll have to make sure i don't treat water the same way I do for most beers when i'm fermenting with Oslo.

 

[duelerx]

Just for the heads up!, according to Richard Preiss from Escarpments Labs they isolated Oslo from flakes and sequence ID'd it. It appears Oslo is a regular kveik but S. cerevisiae.

 

[cmain]

Hops increase pH, especially when dry hopping.

4.5 or below if recommended for shelf stability purposes.

Pretty sure my pitch of Oslo was infected somehow. Not saying that it wasn’t my fault but I’ve never encountered flavors/aromas like this in over 300 batches of beer I’ve made. The easiest way to describe it is plastic. The other pouch I bought at the same time produced a very similar flavor/aroma brewed by someone else using completely different gear/water/grains/etc.

I also got a bad plastic flavor/aroma off of it. Followed my normal brewing practices, adjusted pH etc. Beer was 50/50 Pilsner and 2 Row, noble hops, fermented at 93. Finished at 1.000 in 3 days.

I thought maybe it was somehow chlorophenol, but I haven't really trained on that flavor/aroma so I can't be sure, I haven't experienced in my beers before. I can say I haven't experienced this flavor/aroma in any other brew I have done and to me it is pretty unpleasant.

 

[BeerFst]

I also got a bad plastic flavor/aroma off of it. Followed my normal brewing practices, adjusted pH etc. Beer was 50/50 Pilsner and 2 Row, noble hops, fermented at 93. Finished at 1.000 in 3 days.

I thought maybe it was somehow chlorophenol, but I haven't really trained on that flavor/aroma so I can't be sure, I haven't experienced in my beers before. I can say I haven't experienced this flavor/aroma in any other brew I have done and to me it is pretty unpleasant.

Granted it was using Voss, but i had a similar experience with an awful tasting beer. I treat with campden and follow my usual process but i got an awful plastic/cleaner type taste. If it was an infection it was killed easily since it hasnt popped up in the fermentation keg.

 

[Kenmoron]

Granted it was using Voss, but i had a similar experience with an awful tasting beer. I treat with campden and follow my usual process but i got an awful plastic/cleaner type taste. If it was an infection it was killed easily since it hasnt popped up in the fermentation keg.

It seems like quite a few people have gotten plastic/rubber flavors when not using enough nutrients (stressed yeast create more sulfur compounds). Though, I hear more anecdotes of this happening with Hornindal than other kveiks.

 

[cmain]

It seems like quite a few people have gotten plastic/rubber flavors when not using enough nutrients (stressed yeast create more sulfur compounds). Though, I hear more anecdotes of this happening with Hornindal than other kveiks.

I used Servomyces in mine to no avail, which nutrients are people typically using?

 

[tomchukj]

So I just cracked open another Oslo festbier original pH of 3.79 to see what increasing the pH did to it. I mixed up a bunch of Na bicarb in a small glass of water and used a pipette to introduce doses of about 10 drops at a time. Each dose bumped it up about 0.1-0.2 pH. I tasted after each addition, and as the pH went up the aroma and flavor noticeably improved! I stopped dosing once I got to pH 4.68 (upper end of what beers would naturally finish at). But I was happy with how it tasted even at that high of a pH. I had a control sample sitting next to me that was undosed, and man, this thing is way better at pH 4.68 compared to 3.79! It's still a bit "minerally", but I bet if I were to have buffered a bit prior to pitching Oslo this would have been a better beer!

I guess I have to hand out small packets of pre-measured Na bicarb whenever I give out a bottle! lol

I am thinking of using oslo for a festbier, any idea how much na bicarb to use per 5 gallons pre yeast pitch?

 

[Kenmoron]

I am thinking of using oslo for a festbier, any idea how much na bicarb to use per 5 gallons pre yeast pitch?

I'm not even sure you have to...there are still so many unknown factors and I'm waiting on some research data from Richard Preiss (Escarpment Labs) and Levi Fried (Long Beach Beer Lab). If you feel like buffering, Levi mentions he adds 1000 grams of sodium bicarb, calcium chloride, and calcium carbonate to his 10 bbl batches. I'm not even sure if that is each or total. If I were to buffer, I would probably start with about 1-2 grams/gal of sodium bicarb prior to pitch and see where it gets me.

 

[HaySed]

PM sent

If anyone else needs help sourcing Oslo or Aurora Liquid or Dried feel free to PM me!

 

[TheBrewBrotha]

It seems like quite a few people have gotten plastic/rubber flavors when not using enough nutrients (stressed yeast create more sulfur compounds). Though, I hear more anecdotes of this happening with Hornindal than other kveiks.

I have definitely experienced the reported plastic/rubber flavors from Hornindal. Ended up dumping a few batches after some experiments with it testing against Ferm temps and pitch rates. Oslo had that same plastic/rubber twang.

 

[foggydonkey]

It seems like quite a few people have gotten plastic/rubber flavors when not using enough nutrients (stressed yeast create more sulfur compounds). Though, I hear more anecdotes of this happening with Hornindal than other kveiks.

Anecdotal, but I tried to use some of the Oslo to try my hand at Skeeter pee. Even used a bit more nutrient than the recipe suggested and less sugar for a lower og. Stalled out at 1.030 (from 1.060) and sulfur hell. Smelled like death. Tried to add even more nutrient and Energizer but I think the yeast had died or just refused to ferment. Had to toss that batch.

Tried out a fruit beer (cream ale with 1gal tart cherry juice no preservatives and 3lbs frozen and thawed cherries.) Stalled out at 1.018 (from around 1.050) and no sulfur tastes. Tastes like what I wanted but sweeter. Still drinkable because it's a fruit.

Did a cream ale (1.004 fg and absolutely delicious) a pale (1.008 and also delicious.) Both grain to glass in 7 days (could be 5 or 6 with no cold crash and aggressive force carbing)

I'm loving this for all grain beer. Stellar yeast. Extremely fast and clean. But idk why I'm not having any luck getting it to ferment simple sugars? That seems like it should be easier on the yeast, honestly

I'm a beginner but I've been following directions and idk what it could be. Maybe the acidity thing people were talking about? Lemon and cherry juice are acidic and the amounts are fine for normal yeast but since Oslo lowers the pH itself it pushes it too low?

 

[TandemTails]

Anecdotal, but I tried to use some of the Oslo to try my hand at Skeeter pee. Even used a bit more nutrient than the recipe suggested and less sugar for a lower og. Stalled out at 1.030 (from 1.060) and sulfur hell. Smelled like death. Tried to add even more nutrient and Energizer but I think the yeast had died or just refused to ferment. Had to toss that batch.

Tried out a fruit beer (cream ale with 1gal tart cherry juice no preservatives and 3lbs frozen and thawed cherries.) Stalled out at 1.018 (from around 1.050) and no sulfur tastes. Tastes like what I wanted but sweeter. Still drinkable because it's a fruit.

Did a cream ale (1.004 fg and absolutely delicious) a pale (1.008 and also delicious.) Both grain to glass in 7 days (could be 5 or 6 with no cold crash and aggressive force carbing)

I'm loving this for all grain beer. Stellar yeast. Extremely fast and clean. But idk why I'm not having any luck getting it to ferment simple sugars? That seems like it should be easier on the yeast, honestly

I'm a beginner but I've been following directions and idk what it could be. Maybe the acidity thing people were talking about? Lemon and cherry juice are acidic and the amounts are fine for normal yeast but since Oslo lowers the pH itself it pushes it too low?

I used Oslo in an apricot mead and it took it from 1.095 to 0.998. I didn't use any temp control but had it sitting in my office that usually hovers between 75-80'F this time of year. Tastes and smells fantastic. I'm not sure why you're having issues with it fermenting simple sugars.