Boil Question

[DNKDUKE]

I have been getting off flavors in my beers and am looking for the reason(s). I just read an article in BYO on how a guy brings everything from his boil into the fermentor. Of course I understand why NOT to do this but it got me thinking about my equipment and processes. When I add hops to a boil, I bag them - ALWAYS. I never throw hop pellets into my boil loose. Also, if I am using fresh hops, I use a spider.
Also, while (immersion)chilling, I whirlpool the wort so things end up in the center of the boil pot.

And so the question is:
Is this process of bagging/filtering hops enough to keep enough crap from the boil out of my primary or do I need another piece to my process?

 

[Yooper]

I

And so the question is:
Is this process of bagging/filtering hops enough to keep enough crap from the boil out of my primary or do I need another piece to my process?

I'm wondering, why the effort to keep "crap" out of the primary? I assume you mean hot break and cold break and hops debris?

I don't have a good way to filter out break material in my system so I don't but leaf (whole) hops do clog up my pump so I generally use something for them, like a bag or my bazooka tube. There is still plenty of debris, but not big leafy things that clog my pump. I leave a bit of sludge in the bottom of my kettle, maybe 1 quart or so, but otherwise it all goes into my fermenter.

The cold break always ends up in my fermenter, as I have a counterflow chiller, so the cold break doesn't form until then. Cold break purportedly has nutrients for the yeast, and it will settle out relatively quickly in the fermenter as part of the trub so I don't worry about that at all. It compacts down and doesn't take up much room in the end.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Thanks YOOPER. :rockin:
On to something else like fermentation temp and time.

 

[Jupapabear]

Generally all of my wort/debris make it into the bucket. I second that it settles out, and takes up little room. I have noticed no off flavors while doing this.

Fermentation temperatures would be a great place to start. My beers became much better after building a controlled temperature fermentation chamber. Good Luck!

 

[BobBailey]

Not knowing what what kind of kettle you use or how you drain it makes it hard to really be specific about minimizing hop and break material transfer for you, but I'll tell you how I do it.

I don't bag hops or do hop additions at under 5 minutes and I use Whirlfloc. Also, whenever feasible I use FWH and/or high alpha bittering hops to reduce the amount of hops used. I don't know if the time limit on hop additions is relevant. I find no reason to bag hops.

After chilling I remove the immersion chiller and then stir to create as big a whirlpool as I can. I then cover the kettle and allow it to settle out for about 20 minutes. Next I start the siphon while holding the autosiphon a few inches off of the bottom of the kettle. Once the siphon is started I ease the autosiphon down, holding it against the side of the kettle, until I see a little cloudiness coming through. The wort will quickly clear as it sucks a divot in the debris and again pulls clear wort. You can continue to incrementally lower it until you reach a point where it takes longer for the wort to run clear or it reaches the bottom.

Using this method will minimize the debris transfer, but will also leave more wort in the kettle. You will need to increase your batch size accordingly.

That said, I want to clarify that the reason I want clear wort out of the kettle is not because I believe it makes better beer. I do it because I want 5 gallons of finished product going into the keg and I harvest yeast. If I have clear wort I can reuse the yeast without washing it. As for the volume issue, I switched from glass carboys to Better Bottles, so lost 1/2 gallon capacity in primary. 5.25 gallons of clear wort in a 6 gallon carboy is pushing the limit, even with a blow off tube, and barely nets 5 gallons in the end.

Hopefully, some of this will help. Good luck and happy brewing.

 

[crawlspacestudios]

Just my two cents....I don't think you would be getting serious off flavors from hop debris/cold break material in your fermentor. Might be more along the lines of sanitation and ferm temps/sparge and mash temps? What are your sanitation methods for carboy and tubing etc....? What temp do you pitch your yeast at? Some more info on your process might help

 

[DNKDUKE]

Just my two cents....I don't think you would be getting serious off flavors from hop debris/cold break material in your fermentor. Might be more along the lines of sanitation and ferm temps/sparge and mash temps? What are your sanitation methods for carboy and tubing etc....? What temp do you pitch your yeast at? Some more info on your process might help

Ferm Temps are around 70deg F year round.
For boil/racking to primary I use 5 gal of sanitizer is a 6.5 gal carboy. Insert a single 1/2" X 36" tubing. That sits for minimum of 15 min. while I chill wort. Wort chilled no hotter than 72deg (typically the wort gets chilled to 66-70deg)
Remove tubing. Insert onto hose barb onto a home made keggle. Other end in the carboy - throw the valve - wort into carboy - no O2 so I shake the s___ out of the carboy(as safely as I can) - pitch yeast - let it sit - go clean up.

I have to admit (2) things (uh-o, here it comes)
1. I have had a difficult time hitting a rest temp of 170 deg. This might be due to the fact that water volume has been important to me and so I have found to hit that temp, it seems that I need more 212 deg water than a recipe says I should be using.
and B. I finally took the valve off my keggle and found a booger in it. (I know - I know...) The valve is now sparkling clean.

I'm getting the feeling that fermenting temperatures are something I need to be more concerned about.

 

[dude3516]

I have to admit (2) things (uh-o, here it comes)
1. I have had a difficult time hitting a rest temp of 170 deg. This might be due to the fact that water volume has been important to me and so I have found to hit that temp, it seems that I need more 212 deg water than a recipe says I should be using.

Making a crazy assumption right now, but you Mash at 170 degree's? I normally transfer from my HLT when it gets to 164, which hits right around 154 once fully transferred and mixed in with the grain.

Then I let that sit for an hour and transfer to kettle on low flame. Then I mash out with a top up gallon or two that's heated to 160. Let that sit in the tun for about 15 minutes and then move it over to the kettle and start my boil.

Edit: Also, when you say you ferment at 70, is that your liquid temp or just the air temp? I found that wort temp can easily jump 8 degree's from air temp without some active cooling and that could be making the off flavors. I got some simple "Fermometer" strips to use on my carboy. Thank goodness something useful came from all that mood ring technology produced in the 80's.

 

[crawlspacestudios]

Ferm Temps are around 70deg F year round.
For boil/racking to primary I use 5 gal of sanitizer is a 6.5 gal carboy. Insert a single 1/2" X 36" tubing. That sits for minimum of 15 min. while I chill wort. Wort chilled no hotter than 72deg (typically the wort gets chilled to 66-70deg)
Remove tubing. Insert onto hose barb onto a home made keggle. Other end in the carboy - throw the valve - wort into carboy - no O2 so I shake the s___ out of the carboy(as safely as I can) - pitch yeast - let it sit - go clean up.

I have to admit (2) things (uh-o, here it comes)
1. I have had a difficult time hitting a rest temp of 170 deg. This might be due to the fact that water volume has been important to me and so I have found to hit that temp, it seems that I need more 212 deg water than a recipe says I should be using.
and B. I finally took the valve off my keggle and found a booger in it. (I know - I know...) The valve is now sparkling clean.

I'm getting the feeling that fermenting temperatures are something I need to be more concerned about.

I had two batches go bad because of dirty ball valves :/ I now take them(and thermostat wells and return valves) apart after every boil and pbw. Kind of annoying, but definitely worth it! The back side of the ball valves were slowly accumulating crud and I never noticed until I took the whole thing apart. I assumed it wasn't a big deal in the kettle/mash tun because it was heated and boiled so much, however, once I cleaned them, my off flavors disappeared.

 

[DNKDUKE]

Making a crazy assumption right now, but you Mash at 170 degree's? I normally transfer from my HLT when it gets to 164, which hits right around 154 once fully transferred and mixed in with the grain.

Then I let that sit for an hour and transfer to kettle on low flame. Then I mash out with a top up gallon or two that's heated to 160. Let that sit in the tun for about 15 minutes and then move it over to the kettle and start my boil.

Edit: Also, when you say you ferment at 70, is that your liquid temp or just the air temp?

No. the 170 is a 10 min mash rest (maybe I got the nomenclature wrong) after the hour mash at the lower temp.
Also the frem temp is the air temp not the liquid temp which is Y I suspect my ferm temps need to be more accurate.

 

[dude3516]

No. the 170 is a 10 min mash rest (maybe I got the nomenclature wrong) after the hour mash at the lower temp.
Also the frem temp is the air temp not the liquid temp which is Y I suspect my ferm temps need to be more accurate.

Oh ok, nope that's about right for mash and I'm probably confused myself heheh.

For air temps are you doing it in a refrigerator? I started with a refrigerator and found that taping my johnson probe to the carboy offered a better temp reading. If you're just using the internal thermostat I would suggest at least setting it a few degree's lower than your intended fermentation temp.

The fermometer has been a great help, especially since I moved to the cool brew bags and converted my refrigerator to my kegerator. It only cost a few bucks at my LHBS and can easily be found on all the major home brew sites.

 

[feinbera]

Yeah... if your fermentor is just sitting in a 70° room, I'd say temperature control is the first thing you should look into; even 70° is on the warm side for most yeasts, and without any active cooling, your beer could easily be up around 75°, 78° or something.

Get a 15-gallon bucket to make a water bath, a floating thermometer, and a couple recycled quarter- and half-gallon milk jugs to throw in the freezer, and brew a couple batches holding the temp down around 65°, your beer should clean right up.

 

[Yooper]

If you've got some off flavors, the first places to look are at the water chemistry and fermentation temperatures.

You don't need to do a mash out and hold at 170, but it won't hurt if you do. That's not the cause of any flavor issues.

I'd look at water issues first, as that is the most common place that off flavors come from. It's important to know what is in your water to fix that. Can you get a water report from your municipality? I couldn't, so I sent a sample of my water to Ward Lab, and now have fixed the water issues.

 

[DNKDUKE]

If you've got some off flavors, the first places to look are at the water chemistry and fermentation temperatures.

I had been using well water but have since changed to store bought RO water.

I'm really not trying to be cheap but what about a water test kit? If not I will look up Ward Lab .

 

[RM-MN]

I had been using well water but have since changed to store bought RO water.

I'm really not trying to be cheap but what about a water test kit? If not I will look up Ward Lab .

Most water test kits don't test for the minerals you need for brewing so they are pretty much useless for that but they can be fine for what they are designed to test.

 

[Yooper]

I had been using well water but have since changed to store bought RO water.

I'm really not trying to be cheap but what about a water test kit? If not I will look up Ward Lab .

Well, the store bought RO water should be perfect so assuming that the machine is properly maintained, we should look somewhere else for off flavors.

How about fermentation temperatures, and yeast pitching rates? What have been typical fermentation temperatures for you and which yeast strain? That makes a HUGE difference in the flavor of beer.

 

[DNKDUKE]

How about fermentation temperatures, and yeast pitching rates? What have been typical fermentation temperatures for you and which yeast strain? That makes a HUGE difference in the flavor of beer.

I've concluded through these last few posts that the fermentation temps are likely far too high. I did not realize (DUH:cross that active fermentation gives off heat.
My yeast strains although I don't have access right now to my recipes, have been from Safale-05 and Nottingham dry to a liquid strain used for English Porters.
I was also told that I am not letting the beers mature enough - all my primaries are at least 2 weeks and my secondaries are about the same with bottle conditioning at 2 weeks also. I have attempted 2 higher gravity beers that I am convinced did NOT stay in primary long enough.
I am also not checking my gravity to see that fermentation has stopped - which I will start doing (going by the bubbles in an air lock is not right)
As for pitching rates - I do typically make a starter and active fermentation usually starts within 8-12 hours. The last Porter I made, I made a double starter and active fermentation started within 2 hours with it blowing off for 8 days.
TY