Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

[Elky]

https://conical-fermenter.com/wc30x1/2-ss-tc-670_stainless-steel-wort-chiller.html

It's not as efficient as I'd like, but then again, it's stainless steel which is not as conductive of heat as is copper.

I'm also not as enamored of Stout Tanks as a supplier as I wish I were. They misrepresented the time to deliver on their website, when the order was placed they indicated delivery 3 weeks further out than they'd said on the website, they charged me credit card fees, they required a deposit (against which they charged credit card fees), and they wouldn't quote shipping despite that being tremendously easy. I could see why they wouldn't quote it up front--cost $54 to ship it to me. Sheesh. The end result was about a $254 chiller, which is rather pricey.

There is at least one other vendor out there selling a stainless CF chiller. Can't recall who, ran across them after I bought this one.

Yeah, same one I've got. I've found though that if I turn down the flow rate of the wort I can get it sub 90 degrees on a single pass which is fine for me. I just get it into the fermentor at ~90 degrees and let my fermentation chamber (freezer) drop it the rest of the way to pitching temp.

 

[cegan09]

That stainless counterflow looks nice, but the price is a little much for me.

I don't know why, but I just don't trust when I can't see the surface the beer is moving through to make sure it's clean. For sure an unfounded fear and many don't have issues, it's just one of those personal quirks.

I know LODO is firmly against anything copper, but I've yet to dive into that rabbit hole. I can't find anything concrete that says don't boil it the whole time, but I agree with not wanting to. I think my ideal setup will be grabbing a stainless immersion chiller and setting it up for lid mount. Chilling times will increase compared to the copper, but not by an unreasonable amount. No way I'll have a new one this week, so my first brew I'll probably just make sure it's clean before hand and drop it in at flameout to minimize steam in the house.

 

[mongoose33]

That stainless counterflow looks nice, but the price is a little much for me.

Yeah, it is a pricey thing.

I don't know why, but I just don't trust when I can't see the surface the beer is moving through to make sure it's clean. For sure an unfounded fear and many don't have issues, it's just one of those personal quirks.

When I first started brewing I would use PBW in a solution just hot enough that I didn't want to stick my hand in it, but could. Maybe 115 to 120 degrees.

Then on a lark I tried it hotter, using 140-degree water. What a difference! What required a bit of elbow grease now was shiny bright and clean with no scrubbing.

I now go to about 160, and I'm quite sure the inside of that chiller is just as shiny bright as my kettle. I have been chilling strike water from boiling to 160 degrees using the CF chiller, and I let the boiling water run through it for a few minutes before turning on the hose water to chill. This sanitizes anything that might possibly be left from cleaning.

I know LODO is firmly against anything copper, but I've yet to dive into that rabbit hole. I can't find anything concrete that says don't boil it the whole time, but I agree with not wanting to.

Well, you can. The biggest question is whether it'll create a shorter shelf life for the beer.

I was using Brewtan-B in the boil when I was using the Jaded Hydra. It was, IIRC, a gram of BtB into the boil 1 minute before putting the chiller in. I don't know if this implies 4 grams at 60 minutes or what. I made some pretty good beer even though I was using the Hydra plus BtB.

I think my ideal setup will be grabbing a stainless immersion chiller and setting it up for lid mount. Chilling times will increase compared to the copper, but not by an unreasonable amount. No way I'll have a new one this week, so my first brew I'll probably just make sure it's clean before hand and drop it in at flameout to minimize steam in the house.

The stainless chiller will be significantly slower than copper. If you aren't actively swishing it around or stirring the wort, it'll be slower yet.

As far as steam: If the chiller is fast enough, you'll be down to temps that will produce little steam in just a couple minutes. It may not be important to use the steam catcher at that point, so it may be moot.

 

[cegan09]

I will be whirlpooling during the chill, so that will help some. I'm all too familiar with the thermal differences between copper and stainless, i'm a mechanical engineer by trade and thermal analysis is one of my main tasks. Yes it will be slower, stainless is not a good heat conductor. But it should still be doable in a reasonable time.

Anyway, sorry for the brief derail from the main topic of the condenser. I was mostly curious if anyone had done what I was proposing with the lid mounted chiller, or had any suggestions outside a standard coutnerflow/plate chiller.

 

[mongoose33]

I will be whirlpooling during the chill, so that will help some. I'm all too familiar with the thermal differences between copper and stainless, i'm a mechanical engineer by trade and thermal analysis is one of my main tasks. Yes it will be slower, stainless is not a good heat conductor. But it should still be doable in a reasonable time.

Anyway, sorry for the brief derail from the main topic of the condenser. I was mostly curious if anyone had done what I was proposing with the lid mounted chiller, or had any suggestions outside a standard coutnerflow/plate chiller.

Then I need to be consulting you on how to better insulate my conical. I have a penquin chiller and I just can't get that conical down below about 37 degrees. I've tried to insulate it by wrapping a moving blanket around it, covering the top with a big fluffy towel, but it doesn't appear to be enough. There are 11 appendages sticking out of the conical (legs, handles, ports, etc.) and all are sucking in heat from ambient.

Heck, at one point I even tried to do a sort of mini closet cooled by an air conditioner to try to drop the ambient temp around the fermenter but while that had a little positive effect, it wasn't enough.

I may just try wrapping the legs with pipe insulation, add some reflectix around the middle, put some insulation on the dome, and see if it helps.

Any ideas?

 

[helterscelter]

The last piece I need to solve is chilling. Currently I use an immersion chiller. the issue with this is that my current process is to drop it in for the last 10 minutes of the boil. But since the lid can't be on this will be a problem for the condenser.

I think I have a solution for this, but I'm curious what others suggest. What i'm planning on doing is adding two more 1/2" NPT fittings to my lid and modifying my immersion chiller to have two cam locks, or ball locks, or some other quick disconnect on the ends. Before the boil I can attach the chiller to the lid and just leave it in for the full boil. The only thing I'm trying to research is if it's ok to boil a copper chiller the whole length of the boil or should I just invest in a stainless one for this?

I could make the switch to a counterflow or plate chiller, but I like being able to see the surfaces that touch the beer to make sure they're clean. Feel free to convince me one of these is the better option.

Dunno about safety but I routinely boil my copper imersion chiller for the entire boil.

 

[cegan09]

I'll shoot you a PM with my thoughts, or I think I might have seen your thread about it somewhere. I can respond there.

 

[BrunDog]

I won’t open the drum of worms on this... but at least do some research on copper. The science is mixed.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Didn't commercial brewers use copper vessels for centuries, before the advent of stainless steel? I don't doubt the negative effects on long term shelf life, but ....

 

[cegan09]

I won’t open the drum of worms on this... but at least do some research on copper. The science is mixed.

yea, don't need to turn your thread into a debate on copper, sorry about that.

 

[BrunDog]

True. In Pompeii, they used lead pipes to bring running water into the houses. In the 1800’s, they used asbestos as insulation in buildings. A few years ago, we drank water out of plastic bottles that contained BPA.

Bottom line is without science or sufficient evidence, you don’t know unless the problem is obvious enough, it which point it’s typically too late.

Let’s not debate it here - I just point out that everyone should research and make the personal decision.

 

[doug293cz]

How has its efficiency been for you? I'm a bit disappointed in mine, don't know if my expectations were too high.

Are you really talking about chiller efficiency, or time to cool? Efficiency is measured by the volume of water (at a given inlet temp) that it takes to produce a given temperature drop in a given volume of wort. A suitable metric for comparison (but not actual efficiency) would be:

Wort_Volume * Delta_Wort_Temp / Cooling_Water_Volume
​

I believe maximum efficiency for a counterflow chiller would be achieved when flows are adjusted such that the wort outlet temperature is essentially equal to the cooling water inlet temp. This maximum efficiency setting is unlikely to produce the minimum time to cool, however.

Brew on

 

[mongoose33]

Are you really talking about chiller efficiency, or time to cool? Efficiency is measured by the volume of water (at a given inlet temp) that it takes to produce a given temperature drop in a given volume of wort. A suitable metric for comparison (but not actual efficiency) would be:

Wort_Volume * Delta_Wort_Temp / Cooling_Water_Volume
​

I believe maximum efficiency for a counterflow chiller would be achieved when flows are adjusted such that the wort outlet temperature is essentially equal to the cooling water inlet temp. This maximum efficiency setting is unlikely to produce the minimum time to cool, however.

Brew on

I tried running the water full blast, which should provide maximum cooling, and dialing down the flow of the wort as low as I could get it. I have a Riptide so the valve allows me to get it down to under a gallon a minute. That would have seemed slow enough, and I had it almost down to nothing. Didn't work so well.

Just a matter of figuring it all out.

 

[doug293cz]

I tried running the water full blast, which should provide maximum cooling, and dialing down the flow of the wort as low as I could get it. I have a Riptide so the valve allows me to get it down to under a gallon a minute. That would have seemed slow enough, and I had it almost down to nothing. Didn't work so well.

Just a matter of figuring it all out.

So, how long did it take to cool your wort?

Brew on

 

[mongoose33]

So, how long did it take to cool your wort?

Brew on

I didn't time it exactly, but it was over 25 minutes again.

Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the Hydra. Six minutes when ground water is warm, four minutes in the spring.

 

[doug293cz]

That is a huge difference.

Brew on

 

[milldoggy]

I have 4 CFCs, copper chillzilla, stainless version, stainless shell and tube and just got the stout one. The shell and tube was ok, not near the efficiency of the spiral cfcs. There was a difference between the copper one and stainless one, but I recriculate, so was not a big deal. I recall it was just a few more minutes. Have not tested the stout.

I have idiopathic neuropathy in a toes and feet, been through every test know to man. No idea, so I started to eliminate things in life, so I cut all copper out of my Brewery, has it helped, unsure I changed so many things in my diet, but why risk it.

 

[Elky]

I tried running the water full blast, which should provide maximum cooling, and dialing down the flow of the wort as low as I could get it. I have a Riptide so the valve allows me to get it down to under a gallon a minute. That would have seemed slow enough, and I had it almost down to nothing. Didn't work so well.

Just a matter of figuring it all out.

Are you trying to cool the whole kettle, or knocking down to a target wort leaving temp? I get down to under 90 with a 5 minute whirlpool through the chiller at full speed, then dropping the flow pretty low and rack right to the fermentor at 85-89 degrees.

 

[mongoose33]

Are you trying to cool the whole kettle, or knocking down to a target wort leaving temp? I get down to under 90 with a 5 minute whirlpool through the chiller at full speed, then dropping the flow pretty low and rack right to the fermentor at 85-89 degrees.

What I wanted was to get a target exit wort temp (72 or so would be nice), and then push that right into the fermenter.

I was left with just letting it recirculate in the BK until it finally dropped down to the low 70s.

 

[Elky]

What I wanted was to get a target exit wort temp (72 or so would be nice), and then push that right into the fermenter.

I was left with just letting it recirculate in the BK until it finally dropped down to the low 70s.

Yeah, counter flow chillers are slower in that regard than immersion. I highly recommend getting it as low as you can after whirlpool and a single pass then letting your fermentation chamber do the rest of the hard work instead of sending so much water down the drain.

 

[mongoose33]

Yeah, counter flow chillers are slower in that regard than immersion. I highly recommend getting it as low as you can after whirlpool and a single pass then letting your fermentation chamber do the rest of the hard work instead of sending so much water down the drain.

Yeah, I may have to just accept it. That's one price of LODO brewing I suspect a lot of people would not be willing to pay. The biggest reason I did this, though, is the steamcatcher. Didn't want to use the immersion chiller given the setup I have.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I can chill 15 gal of wort to the fermenters down to 47F in about 20 minutes. I use a copper counter flow for the first stage and a plate chiller for the second stage submerged in a cooler of ice with a pond pump circulating the ice water through the plate chiller. I've read about no oxigen brewing but haven't tried it yet. I've brewed beers without it which lasted for months and some a few years with no signs of degrading. They might have lasted longer but no chance around my house.

 

[mongoose33]

View attachment 588848 View attachment 588849 I can chill 15 gal of wort to the fermenters down to 47F in about 20 minutes. I use a copper counter flow for the first stage and a plate chiller for the second stage submerged in a cooler of ice with a pond pump circulating the ice water through the plate chiller. I've read about no oxigen brewing but haven't tried it yet. I've brewed beers without it which lasted for months and some a few years with no signs of degrading. They might have lasted longer but no chance around my house.

None of my comments, I hope, are to be interpreted that LODO is what everybody should do. Rather, I'm trying to implement it to see if it makes a discernable difference. In some cases, it does. In other cases...

I brew a dark lager that's really nice. Brewed the last one using LODO techniques. A buddy, using the same recipe, same water adjustments, but doing a mash/sparge thing with NO particular LODO techniques, produced a beer that as far as I could tell, was the same as mine. Would it last as long? Like yours, they don't seem to linger in the keezer.....

But I've had others where LODO was stunningly better than what I'd typically get--and what I had without LODO was pretty darned good. I don't know all the variables involved here yet, and when I finally get my system dialed in, I'll do two "identical" batches, one with, one without LODO, and see what kind of difference I can discern.

It's still a work in progress. Should everyone do it? No. They can make their own choices, and if they're happy, why fix what's not broken? At some point here I'll draw a conclusion and post a thread about it, but I'm a ways away from doing that.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

None of my comments, I hope, are to be interpreted that LODO is what everybody should do. Rather, I'm trying to implement it to see if it makes a discernable difference. In some cases, it does. In other cases...

I brew a dark lager that's really nice. Brewed the last one using LODO techniques. A buddy, using the same recipe, same water adjustments, but doing a mash/sparge thing with NO particular LODO techniques, produced a beer that as far as I could tell, was the same as mine. Would it last as long? Like yours, they don't seem to linger in the keezer.....

But I've had others where LODO was stunningly better than what I'd typically get--and what I had without LODO was pretty darned good. I don't know all the variables involved here yet, and when I finally get my system dialed in, I'll do two "identical" batches, one with, one without LODO, and see what kind of difference I can discern.

It's still a work in progress. Should everyone do it? No. They can make their own choices, and if they're happy, why fix what's not broken? At some point here I'll draw a conclusion and post a thread about it, but I'm a ways away from doing that.

I've heard some German breweries have moved to LODO, not sure how true it is. I'll probably give it a try at some point.

 

[BrunDog]

I'd suggest we keep this thread to boring old steam condensing. For LODO, there are a couple of threads here, including this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...gen-brewing-thread-aka-lodo-lowdo-lob.636841/ .Also check out @Die_Beerery's work at lowoxygenbrewing.com. He and other LODO brewers have legitimate knowledge to share. I know many poo-poo the idea, probably because their process is drawn into question as a result, but the science is real.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I concur

 

[cegan09]

Again, apologies for the derail. I was just curious what other users of the condenser were doing for chilling if they had previously used an immersion chiller. Never meant to go so far off topic.

My condenser is out for delivery today. Going to try to do all the silver soldering on the new kettle tonight. Needed the condenser to do the layout on the lid. Tomorrow I should be running a water test of the system to learn my new power numbers and boil off, as well as test the pump with the sprayer. Super excited to try this out.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I would like to know if anyone out there has large kettles like 20 to 30 gal and is using this condenser. Is it working well for you, what diameter is it? Everything I've seen so far is 1.5 ".

 

[stevehaun]

I have a 20 gallon kettle and use a 1.5" triclamp condenser system. Works great.

 

[cbier60]

I would like to know if anyone out there has large kettles like 20 to 30 gal and is using this condenser. Is it working well for you, what diameter is it? Everything I've seen so far is 1.5 ".

I have a 20 gallon kettle and use a 1.5" triclamp condenser system. Works great.

Ditto on another 20G kettle with 1.5" side-mount TC, works fantastic. A little more info is in post #689