Bogus PIDs and SSRs?

[augiedoggy]

Awesome Augie.

If I ever have one fail that would be a great replacement. It looks like the exact same housing and pump size, only with a plastic rather than bronze pump.

They also sell a stainless head for it... you can try buying just the stainless head upgrade if you think its the same motor.. the Bronz will turn black and nasty quickly... plus theres the higher lead content which you may or may not be concerned with, its not a problem with water but acidic wort can draw it out I believe.

 

[SpentBrains]

Brewed a shake down batch today on the new system. A double batch of more beer's American Brown Ale.

Mixed reviews, as a few problems manifested themselves just prior to and during the brew session. I think the beer will be good enough, but being my first 10+ gallon batch, only time will tell.

First off I had some issue with an electrical connection. That caused one of the thermocouple feeds not to register. Ended up taking several components out and back in, which must have pulled something else loose. Even though all the high load connections are soldered ring terminals, for some reason all the jostling caused a loss of control over one of the elements. Eventually swapped the SSRs around on the heat sink - out then back in again, where I next paid dearly for not using wire labels during construction! Had to waste some time with the continuity tester. A few hours down the drain. It's all working again.

Once I started to brew too late in the day, I way under estimated just how much water I'd loose through absorption with the bigger grain bill of this batch. In typical fashion, I next added too much chlorinated garden hose water, since I didn't have enough R.O. water, to bring the volume up. With no original plan to do so and no way to measure volume anywhere in the system yet, I conducted a second running after I'd mashed out the first batch with way too much added water. I'd so poorly planned the brew session, I figured that running a second batch might save the day, but overcompensated once again. It ended up working out to about 14 gallons total pre boil, rather than the 12.25 I was shooting for. Poor headwork and even poorer execution. No rest for the weary - I corespondingly also got to experience my first boil over. One bright spot was the much higher efficiency which still had me in the target OG range.

Had to resort to boiling using the propane, because as I suspected and read about here many times, the 4500 watt element is way too much heat once 14 gallons reaches a boil. I'll be swapping out the boil controller for one with direct manual control before I brew again.

I find that my hoses all make figure 8s in most configurations. As if we need yet another illustration of poor planning. Should have chosen to put the keg ports on the other side in both cases. Not too damning, since the pumps haven't been bolted to their mounts just yet. It's going to looks silly with the pumps facing backwards.

On the positive side, the 5500 watt HLT element is a nice way to get rapid temp changes. It brings a lot of water to temp quickly. Fantastic to be able to manipulate temp with push button ease and accuracy!

Love having pumps to move the beer! No more lifting 6 gallons at a shot, nor relying on gravity. Dough in from the bottom & whirlpooling are nice new concepts too.

Gotta brew again soon while all of this is fresh in mind, but there are still a few parts to be completed. Fun and very rewarding project!

 

[jcav]

Congrats on the maiden voyage! Most of us have an issue or two (or several) when using our systems for the first time. It will take a few brew sessions to dial it in. I had a heck of a time with one of my pumps when mashing and sparging on my first run with my system. Ended up buying center inlet heads for my pumps and it solved the issue right away. I have a 5500 watt element and I only have it set at 75 % when I boil, or it is way to strong. At 75 % for my system I get a very good rolling boil and I only boil off one gallon an hour. Keep plugging away at it. Bottom line, you still made some beer!

John

 

[WScottCross]

I also had a "Fotek" SSR fail. I tore it apart and, sure enough, it had an underrated TRIAC in it. This was another counterfeit. I did some research to see if there is a way to tell the real ones from the fakes. It appears UL has an article about it from 2014: http://www.ul.com/newsroom/publicnotices/ul-warns-of-solid-state-relay-with-counterfeit-ul-recognition-mark-release-13pn-52/ I have another one in my system that did NOT fail and it matches the real label in that article. Too bad we can't catch the bastards giving Fotek a bad name.

 

[r8rphan]

I'm just in the parts ordering phase of my EBIAB build... You guys have me concerned... I was going to ordera MYPIN TD4, and this SSR...

uxcell® SSR-40DA 40A Solid State Relay Module 3-32V DC /24-480V AC + Heat Sink

Am I making a mistake? I don't want to deal with parts failing... Should I be looking at something else? I hope the good stuff doesn't cost too much more...

 

[PeteNMA]

Mager SSRs from eBay. They are available from a seller in Georgia if you want fast shipping, or on the slow boat from China

 

[r8rphan]

Mager SSRs from eBay. They are available from a seller in Georgia if you want fast shipping, or on the slow boat from China

Are you talking to me?

 

[doug293cz]

Are you talking to me?

I believe he is. Mager's are what Auber rebrands and sells. I bought Mager MGR-1D4840's (40A) from ebay. I've not seen any reports of counterfeit Mager's, unlike the Fotek's.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

Mager SSRs from eBay. They are available from a seller in Georgia if you want fast shipping, or on the slow boat from China

This one?

Mager SSR on eBay

 

[doug293cz]

This one?

Mager SSR on eBay

That's the one. You can get it with heatsink here.

Brew on

 

[PeteNMA]

I was replying to you yes. I have two in my panel and they work great

 

[r8rphan]

What about this PID? Should I be looking at something else?

MYPIN TD4

 

[doug293cz]

What about this PID? Should I be looking at something else?

MYPIN TD4

That is a popular PID that is used by many electric brewers around these parts. It's the one called out in the design I posted here.

If you're not trying to save every last penny on your build, I suggest you look at the Auber DSPR110 controller. It has a mash temp controller function (but uses something other than a PID algorithm) and a knob based boil power control in a single unit. It also has a built in timer. I posted a simple control panel design using the DSPR110 here.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

That is a popular PID that is used by many electric brewers around these parts. It's the one called out in the design I posted here.

If you're not trying to save every last penny on your build, I suggest you look at the Auber DSPR110 controller. It has a mash temp controller function (but uses something other than a PID algorithm) and a knob based boil power control in a single unit. It also has a built in timer. I posted a simple control panel design using the DSPR110 here.


Brew on

That sounds nice.. Not quite as sexy looking, but I can make that up with some colored lights and blinking things...

(unless it's physically 'bigger?')

Only about 10 bucks more, so we're still not talking about a bunch of money...

Is there a difference between them in regards to quality of construction and reliability?

 

[doug293cz]

That sounds nice.. Not quite as sexy looking, but I can make that up with some colored lights and blinking things...

(unless it's physically 'bigger?')

Only about 10 bucks more, so we're still not talking about a bunch of money...

Is there a difference between them in regards to quality of construction and reliability?

They are both "1/16 DIN size" which is about 2" x 2", although depth might be a little different.

Both are made in China, and I have no info on construction quality or reliability. MyPins apparently have pretty good quality, as you don't see them being bad mouthed for early failures. Most of the issues are choice of incorrect model, or not knowing how to operate them, or tune them. The DSPR110 is really new, so not enough time to get reliability reports. At least Auber gives you a US based supplier to beat up if there are quality/reliability/warranty issues, not that there is any reason to suspect that there will be.

Edit: Not sure I buy the higher "bling factor" for the MyPin. I think the Auber has a more professional, industrial look.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

I posted a simple control panel design using the DSPR110 here.

Brew on

You're missing the other hot in that circuit... It's a 230v system being supplied with 115.. Or is that what you were intending?

I like the simplicity.. I'd just have to add another fuse, switch, light, and receptacle for the pump circuit... and then I'm good to go... and maybe one of those snazzy blue volt/amp LED DROs I see on everybody's boxes...

Having a hard time finding the pt100 probe I need though...

I need a 4" long one, with 1/2" threads (or 1/4" with a reducer) so that I can insert it through the BH sight glass...

 

[doug293cz]

You're missing the other hot in that circuit... It's a 230v system being supplied with 115.. Or is that what you were intending?

I like the simplicity.. I'd just have to add another fuse, switch, light, and receptacle for the pump circuit... and then I'm good to go... and maybe one of those snazzy blue volt/amp LED DROs I see on everybody's boxes...

Having a hard time finding the pt100 probe I need though...

I need a 4" long one, with 1/2" threads (or 1/4" with a reducer) so that I can insert it through the BH sight glass...

You're correct. It's hard to keep the details of all my designs sorted out. This was designed for a European brewer (Ireland) where the 230V mains are just a hot and neutral, not 2X 120V hots, 180˚ out of phase, plus neutral. The controllers don't care, as they operate anywhere from about 90V - 260V AC. To modify for 120V/240V, change the neutral to hot 2, and add a neutral line to give you 120V for the pumps, etc.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

That controller is really sweet.. Now I want that instead...

and they got lots of sexy switches and
and that blue volt/amp DRO I was asking about

and they have the probe I need.. a bit pricey, but it is disconnectable too!

 

[r8rphan]

You're correct. It's hard to keep the details of all my designs sorted out. This was designed for a European brewer (Ireland) where the 230V mains are just a hot and neutral, not 2X 120V hots, 180˚ out of phase, plus neutral. The controllers don't care, as they operate anywhere from about 90V - 260V AC. To modify for 120V/240V, change the neutral to hot 2, and add a neutral line to give you 120V for the pumps, etc.

Brew on

Thanks for the tip about auberins...

That looks to be the source of the last pieces I need to put this all together... That place is gonna jump the price of my build up about a 100 bucks, but six months from now, I'll never feel it.. lol

Definitely gonna get that controller and the probe I need from them... Gonna add a few other goodies to my order which means I'll have to wait till next week to order, when I can add some moola to my budget...

But I just found a great deal on a 2P 50A gfci breaker, so that reduces the hit some..

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the tip about auberins...

That looks to be the source of the last pieces I need to put this all together... That place is gonna jump the price of my build up about a 100 bucks, but six months from now, I'll never feel it.. lol

Definitely gonna get that controller and the probe I need from them... Gonna add a few other goodies to my order which means I'll have to wait till next week to order, when I can add some moola to my budget...

But I just found a great deal on a 2P 50A gfci breaker, so that reduces the hit some..

A 50A GFCI breaker may not be such a bargain. You need to wire with 6AWG for 50A vs. 10AWG for 30A. To use 10AWG wiring with a 50A breaker, you need to have a 30A breaker upstream of the 50A'er (in which case the 50A device is only being used for the GFCI functionality.)

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

A 50A GFCI breaker may not be such a bargain. You need to wire with 6AWG for 50A vs. 10AWG for 30A. To use 10AWG wiring with a 50A breaker, you need to have a 30A breaker upstream of the 50A'er (in which case the 50A device is only being used for the GFCI functionality.)

Brew on

Naw, you only need #8 THHN for a 50 amp protected load center... Remember, you size the 'wire' according to the load it will be supplying, which can only be 80% of the wire's rated ampacity... The breaker is only protecting the wire and has nothing to do with the load.. Size the wore to 125% of the load, and then size the breaker to the wire it is protecting..


The load center will be for bringing power out to the screened porch which will feed several outlets inside and outside the porch, the brew system, lighting for the porch and outside the porch and a feed out to the picnic area under the firs and cedars, where I'm working on slowly leveling it all out, putting in a big firepit, stone grill/smoker/pizza oven, a concrete picnic table with SS wells in the middle for ice and beverage, a water feature, lighting, and a sound system... Even running a 2" PVC line out there for a 24ch snake so I can set up my mixer out there and jam with friends on the deck I'm building outside the porch... more labor to do all this than money...

:rockin:

It's part of the 20 year plan.. lol... When you don't have a lot of money, you have to go so slow so you have a lot of time to plan (and collect rocks for the grill and stuff)...

It's all part of the master plan... Hope I live long enough to see it!

Just so you know, #8 THHN is rated for 45 amps.. When the wire ampacity does not correspond to available breaker sizes, you are allowed to use the next larger size breaker that does exist... in this case 50A.. The code lists all the sizes breakers come in...

Also, FYI, you are allowed to downsize the neutral on 3 wire 240v feeder circuits... actually, this is legal on 120/208 and 277/480v 3 and 4 wire feeder circuits too.... (not on branch circuits though), so I could even go with #10 there, but I probably won't do that as I have miles of scrap wire around here to use for the feeder...

I'll be putting a regular 30A 2P breaker in the load center on the porch to feed an outlet for the brew system... The 50A GFI will be in the panel in the house that feeds the load center...

 

[doug293cz]

You're missing the other hot in that circuit... It's a 230v system being supplied with 115.. Or is that what you were intending?

...

Here's the US version of the minimal DSPR110 control panel. Note the differences with the EU version here.



Brew on

 

[PeteNMA]

The 20% derating only applies to continuous loads which is a load applied for more than three hours.

 

[kal]

The 20% derating only applies to continuous loads which is a load applied for more than three hours.

True, but only part of the story.

This topic is a point of debate amongst electric brewers as it is somewhat open to individual interpretation of the electrical code (which may vary by region). The electrical code in the US and many other places states "the wiring for a continuously loaded appliance without a motor needs to be rated at 125% of the marked rating of that appliance". In other words, do not use more than 80% capacity. The electrical code defines a continuous load as "A load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more" and goes further to state that "A fixed storage-type water heater that has a capacity of 120 gal or less shall be considered a continuous load". That last part of the gotcha/confusion/grey area.

The arguments made for and against using more than 80% for a brewing setup typically revolve around whether someone thinks that the elements will be fired for more than 3 hours continuously and/or whether or not an electric brewing setup is classified as a "fixed storage-type water heater" (given that we use the electric heating elements found in hot water tanks and the functionality is somewhat similar).

So YMMV. Just something to keep in mind.

Kal

 

[doug293cz]

Naw, you only need #8 THHN for a 50 amp protected load center... Remember, you size the 'wire' according to the load it will be supplying, which can only be 80% of the wire's rated ampacity... The breaker is only protecting the wire and has nothing to do with the load.. Size the wore to 125% of the load, and then size the breaker to the wire it is protecting..

...

Just so you know, #8 THHN is rated for 45 amps.. When the wire ampacity does not correspond to available breaker sizes, you are allowed to use the next larger size breaker that does exist... in this case 50A.. The code lists all the sizes breakers come in...

I did some more checking, and THHN is 90˚C rated wire, and Cu 8AWG THHN is actually rated up to 55A. Whereas, the 60˚C rated 8AWG wires are only rated for 40A. Guess I need to look at more than just the sticky in the Electric Brewing forum.

Thanks, I learned something today.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

I did some more checking, and THHN is 90˚C rated wire, and Cu 8AWG THHN is actually rated up to 55A. Whereas, the 60˚C rated 8AWG wires are only rated for 40A. Guess I need to look at more than just the sticky in the Electric Brewing forum.

Thanks, I learned something today.

Brew on

You could be right, I knew it was somewhere in between breaker sizes, been a while since I looked.. I just know I use #8 to feed load centers with 50A breakers ahead of them all the time...

If I am in doubt, I just look it up..

And remember, if no breaker size corresponds to your wire ampacity, you are allowed to use the next larger size breaker..

 

[r8rphan]

The 20% derating only applies to continuous loads which is a load applied for more than three hours.

Not entirely true.. It's applied to things like receptacles, etc.. With each duplex receptacle counting as 150 watts, you are only allowed to hook up enough of them to go up to the 80% threshold... There are all kinds of things it is applied to..

As a 'general rule' you figure 80% as the max you want to load a circuit up... continuous or not...Then again, for our purposes it's not really an issue...

If you go out and stick an ammeter on the service drop to your house, you'll find it rarely is over 15-20A... They require overbuilding electrical systems like crazy for the end user... For the utility... not so much... They base it on that 15 or 20A... But the county makes you base it on 200A or whatever.. Like everything else involving the govt, there are two sets of rules.. lol

By the way, in the tables and examples of the NEC, when you have to go through load calcs for the entire residence/structure, you'll often find that you have to derate things to considerably more than 20%.... Then there are other factors that cause even more derating, like conduit fill, etc...

 

[SpentBrains]

...a point of debate amongst electric brewers as it is somewhat open to individual interpretation of the electrical code...

So true! For that reason I have piggy backed my GFCI "spa panel" like a plug in appliance. It is technically "removable". If I ever move, or take my entire rig to another location to brew (both doubtful), the whole kit & caboodle unplugs.

I drove a separate new ground rod outside, but near where I mounted my spa box which is secured to the wall on a quick detach mount plate. A short pigtail "inlet", plugs the spa box into, the previous homeowner installed 3 wire x 6 gauge 50 amp breaker protected wall outlet. I've used that successfully for a welder and plasma cutter in the shop for years. From the out line on the spa box, I have about 30' of drop cord that plugs into the recessed NEMA inlet, I built into the brew sculpture (thanks to Kal's online guidance).

If ever anybody with any real or self anointed authority... like a know it all real-estate agent, or one of his wanna-be otherwise unemployable son-in-law/home inspectors, or even god forbid a real local building inspector, ever wants to talk about "electrical codes", I'll just unplug my "portable device", GFCI, ground, brew-rig and all, thereby ending the argument.

 

[r8rphan]

I plan to do solar exactly the same way... on a trailer, hooked into the house via temp power cord, and I have even considered buying a couple old golf carts to use as battery storage... How many people can unhook their backup power system and drive it around?

As long as it is all kept on private property, then no governing authority has jurisdiction over it...