Bogus PIDs and SSRs?

[GeekTest233]

(deleted)

 

[augiedoggy]

The budget is also a problem for me. And because i live in Europe, either if a would have the money to buy a Auberins PID i don't think that the warranty would be valid so, if the PID will broke they can't sent me a new one across the ocean.
I am trying to make a cheap usable electric brewery with chinese components, but now i am worryed about the PID and SSR chinese sells.
I guid for buying chinese components would be great, with advices about what to look for before buying
So, augiedoggy, do you use the PID from the aliexpress link?

Honestly no... I use mypin TD4-SNR model pids which have fuzzy logic as well as the manual pwm mode for controlling a steady boil they also have alarms and one model I use for my rims has 2 alarms. I currently use one Teledyne dual SSR I bought new for like $15 on eBay and one Fotek (25a knock off) which has worked fine for 3 years now... If I did it again I would have avoided the foteks and gone with the mager ones..

 

[doug293cz]

...

It was amazing how much time did get spent on stoopid stuff like sourcing a high power relay for my RIMS Hi/Low power. You would think a DIN rail mount, SPDT, 30A NO/NC relay wouldn't be too much to ask but I spent hours researching that one.

So, where did you find it? Seems like all the xPDT contactors have much lower current ratings on the NC contacts vs. the NO contacts.

Brew on

 

[bionut]

Does this mypin TD4-SNR look original to you? Or i have a big change to get a PID with another brand writen on it?

 

[augiedoggy]

Does this mypin TD4-SNR look original to you? Or i have a big change to get a PID with another brand writen on it?

I have yet to ever hear of a knockoff mypin.. Like I mentioned earlier they are a Chinese company and knockoffs are usually made from foreign name brand goods... I believe you are safe if you order that.

 

[BrunDog]

So, where did you find it? Seems like all the xPDT contactors have much lower current ratings on the NC contacts vs. the NO contacts.

Brew on

Exactly. Some say it is just a ratings thing, but the difference between NO and NC is usually so large (e.g. 30A & 3A) that it is not worth testing IMO.

I used this one: http://www.alliedelec.com/schneider-electric-magnecraft-300xbxc4-120a/70184975/

However, in early practice it has failed. When switching from high power to low power with the element on, it arced, binding the contacts and tripping the circuit breaker. Of course I am switching from a hot leg to a neutral in that circumstance, so that may play a role, but nonetheless it is not behaving as designed. My workaround has been to use an extra state on the BCS to turn the element output off before switching the relay. This has completely resolved the issue, but using good software to make up for bad hardware is not a good practice.

 

[doug293cz]

Exactly. Some say it is just a ratings thing, but the difference between NO and NC is usually so large (e.g. 30A & 3A) that it is not worth testing IMO.

I used this one: http://www.alliedelec.com/schneider-electric-magnecraft-300xbxc4-120a/70184975/

However, in early practice it has failed. When switching from high power to low power with the element on, it arced, binding the contacts and tripping the circuit breaker. Of course I am switching from a hot leg to a neutral in that circumstance, so that may play a role, but nonetheless it is not behaving as designed. My workaround has been to use an extra state on the BCS to turn the element output off before switching the relay. This has completely resolved the issue, but using good software to make up for bad hardware is not a good practice.

Thanks. I think I'll stick with my design that uses two DPST contactors for the high/low power selection. Cost isn't that much different.

Brew on

 

[kal]

Cheaply made or just plain fake electronic components has definitely caused me a lot of headaches.

I get daily emails from people building my design wondering why the $3 SSR they sourced themselves no longer works. They think it wasn't cooled adequately/they didn't use enough thermal grease/etc. but most often than not it's simply that it's just cheap junk. Fake components are fairly rare - most will work "Sort of" as long as you don't push the thing to the limits of how it should actually work.

Like others have stated, I don't find it's worth the hassle. "Buy once" is my motto.

Kal

 

[mattd2]

One thing I know when sourcing cheaper electronics direct from Asian sellers is to read into what information is not provided - case in point the OPs PID. Looking at an example of what you want (e.g. Aubers PID) and compare its specs to those of the item from Ebay/China. If there is information missing it is likely that the seller doesn't know (and therefor it is a crap-shoot if it does what you want) or the seller intentionally has not provided the information because they know the option they are providing is not as valuable.

This goes back to the "doing research" prior to buying - for the OPs example; searching for Berme REX-C100 / Berme PID / REX-C100 PID / PID REX C100 / etc. would have brough up a wealth of information regarding what it can / can't do and items to be weary of. The you can make an informaed decision as to the risk of purchasing it.

Getting equipment that is DOA is not a reason for negative feedback to me, first give the seller a chance to make it right (and most will because they know the neg is hanging over their head). After all is it reasonable to expect the seller to test every item going out the door? (the answer is no). You may have been the unlucky one to get a dud that needs replacing, could of happened to any equipment bought in your country too it would just be quicker to resolve as you would not have another 3-4 weeks shipping to wait for.

I agree with your stance that you shouldn't just do what everyone else has done just because it is proven... but you should learn from anyone who has tried to go the path you are taking before you set off as it may save you some pain. If you can not find any information on your ideas then start asking on forums for advice, then if not real data can be given it is up to you to decide if you want to be a trailblazer and be immortalised in homebrewing lore as the first person to do this/that (i.e. Aplpha Omega's STC-1000+) for the risk of it being a complete was of time/money and being left with a pile of bits and pieces that won't do what you want to do...

 

[augiedoggy]

Anyone found that, augiedoggy keep saying bad words on Auber for several years continuously (link).

In the past, he said Auber's SSR is much much expensive than the "counterfeit" one you can find in Amazon and eBay. Now since Auber reduced their SSR price, he changed his mind to Auber's PIDs.

I really believe that, either Auber hurt augie deeply in the past, or augie is paid by one of Auber's competitor, am I right?

You are completely wrong. Simply put I've never delt with them, ever.

I never suggested the OP here or anyone buy anything from auber unless they are in a time crunch for the simple reason that I dont argee with thier business practice of taking a generic $6 SSR and changing the label then charging $20 plus shipping for that same item... I dont say anything "bad" about them I just point out facts that you interpolate as bad. They buy cheap generic stuff in bulk and mark it up to well over double the normal retail price for it and this leads people to draw incorrect conclusions about its quality and origin.

For the record I recommended the mager ssrs and have for a long time, which are the same ssrs as auber sells.. I just wouldnt buy them there unless someone is in a hurry for them or really just wants to buy everything from one source markups and all.. It makes no difference to me as long as the person who is considering doing it is aware that there is nothing better at all about the actual generic sensors, switches ,indicators and such they are selling at higher prices... Most often people here give bad advice indicating that it is a superior product than the same product from the same factories being sold from another vendor for less people want to believe so bad that you always get exactly what you pay for and its just not the case.

I do however believe from all the research that you have done that you have some personal reason to implicate me here? do you perhaps have an affiliation with Auberins? Its no secret that I dont care for companies that push cheap products for high prices. Their pids are the only thing I would ever consider purchasing myself. I do however find it interesting that auber has been dropping their prices on a lot of the stuff they sell.... hmmm..

 

[MrNatural]

So, I've heard various opinions on FOTEK SSRs, and recall seeing somewhere a tutorial on identifying "real" FOTEKs from knockoffs.
Lately the theme has been to slam all Ebay FOTEKs as junk. Now I find myself wondering if a "real" FOTEK actually exists, including the half dozen I've already picked up during one of my acquisition phases.
Anybody seen a real one?

 

[GeekTest233]

So, I've heard various opinions on FOTEK SSRs, and recall seeing somewhere a tutorial on identifying "real" FOTEKs from knockoffs.
Lately the theme has been to slam all Ebay FOTEKs as junk. Now I find myself wondering if a "real" FOTEK actually exists, including the half dozen I've already picked up during one of my acquisition phases.
Anybody seen a real one?

Real Fotek SSR must be exists (that's the reason why a lot of copies).

BTW I really want to see that tutorial.

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks. I think I'll stick with my design that uses two DPST contactors for the high/low power selection. Cost isn't that much different.

Brew on

I think I already commented... be careful doing this. In fact I would strongly warn against it. Remember that while to you the relays switch instantaneously, these will not switch at the same time. Inductive coils do not unload quickly, so the OFF relay may physically switch after the ON relay switches. Therefore, for a brief instant, and remembering that electrons travel at 186,000 miles/sec, you may be connecting a hot leg to neutral leg. So make sure your output is off before you switch Hi/Low or vice versa (like I noted I do).

 

[doug293cz]

I think I already commented... be careful doing this. In fact I would strongly warn against it. Remember that while to you the relays switch instantaneously, these will not switch at the same time. Inductive coils do not unload quickly, so the OFF relay may physically switch after the ON relay switches. Therefore, for a brief instant, and remembering that electrons travel at 186,000 miles/sec, you may be connecting a hot leg to neutral leg. So make sure your output is off before you switch Hi/Low or vice versa (like I noted I do).

I remember. Maybe I'll look at putting some interlock relays in the switching circuit. Kind of like a safe start interlock relay.

I think we should stop hijacking this thread.

Brew on

 

[BrunDog]

Good point!

 

[augiedoggy]

Real Fotek SSR must be exists (that's the reason why a lot of copies).

BTW I really want to see that tutorial.

There is another fotek thread started last week by alphaomega with some links and a video on the foteks and clones.

I googled it and found the tutorial with photos and details about the fakes vs the real ones. One sure way to tell at least some of the clones is whether it says "made in Taiwan" on the decal, the fakes dont. The other is the beveled lower right corner of the decal. Some of the fakes dont have this.

 

[kal]

Not to go further off-topic, but here are a few articles about fake FOTEKs:

http://www.instructables.com/id/The-inner-workings-of-Counterfeit-FOTEK-SSRs/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...cognition-mark-release-13pn-52-242919311.html

Seems they're not "fakes" but lower current ones relabeled as high current. Ie: 10-12A ones labelled as 25A units. So they overheat/fry if used up to the specified current rating.

Kal

 

[MrNatural]

There is another fotek thread started last week by alphaomega with some links and a video on the foteks and clones.

I googled it and found the tutorial with photos and details about the fakes vs the real ones. One sure way to tell at least some of the clones is whether it says "made in Taiwan" on the decal, the fakes dont. The other is the beveled lower right corner of the decal. Some of the fakes dont have this.

I must be one lucky SOB. I've got both kinds of FONEY FOTEKS. Two without the Taiwan and four without the beveled corner.

 

[SpentBrains]

I've got both kinds of FONEY FOTEKS.

How have your phonies preformed?

 

[augiedoggy]

I must be one lucky SOB. I've got both kinds of FONEY FOTEKS. Two without the Taiwan and four without the beveled corner.

Mine are all fake as well... most of the lower cost "foteks" are fake from the article I read..
Mine have worked ok but over the years here I have read far more failed fotek ssr reports than anything else here.

 

[augiedoggy]

Not to go further off-topic, but here are a few articles about fake FOTEKs:

http://www.instructables.com/id/The-inner-workings-of-Counterfeit-FOTEK-SSRs/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...cognition-mark-release-13pn-52-242919311.html

Seems they're not "fakes" but lower current ones relabeled as high current. Ie: 10-12A ones labelled as 25A units. So they overheat/fry if used up to the specified current rating.

Kal

Unless I missed it the links you provided do in fact all support the claim that they are counterfiet? Yes they are well designed as a lower power 12Assr but I have found no evidence they were made by fotek or in Taiwan... The fakes are all coming out of china. this info was known when I bought mine 3 years ago except the recent tear down and reverse engineering and the guy that did that has yet to tear a real one down to compare.

 

[MrNatural]

How have your phonies preformed?

Kind of embarrassed to say it, but I have no idea.
Built single tier propane/electric "Brutus" stand, but have only brewed as manual propane so far. BCS and rest of the panel fell victim to other projects and still reside here:

 

[SpentBrains]

Hang in there man and keep working on it! I'm just glad you didn't say that they didn't work, but it was somehow your own fault because you didn't spend more money.

BTW, an update on my purchase, the eBay vendor who I so unfairly "dinged" with a negative review, has sent me 5 eMails asking me to arbitrarily change the review to a positive one, yet refuses to address a method for return or exchange of the mis-manufactured thermocouple. Seems my first read might have been spot on.

Yesterday I welded up a few heavy aluminum plates for a poor man's junkyard heatsink. I sure as heck won't be mounting the SSRs that came with the rest of the garbage PID package on it.

I still don't understand how you're supposed to be able to judge the quality of a component you can't see until it arrives based solely on price of the product. Especially when I have the example of picking up stainless steel fittings for 1/3 of what they'd cost me locally and they are perfectly prepared for welding. An even harder thing to get my mind around, is that somehow or other I am just supposed to accept this fact that some of the components I buy for this project will just end up "in a pile in the garage", without attempting to help others see through this, or "whining about it" on a forum. Has the American consumer really become that much of a powerless simpleton?

 

[kal]

Unless I missed it the links you provided do in fact all support the claim that they are counterfiet? Yes they are well designed as a lower power 12Assr but I have found no evidence they were made by fotek or in Taiwan... The fakes are all coming out of china.

Good point. I don't know. It's not something I researched in depth.

Kal

 

[SpentBrains]

And good luck to you on your build - I won't be contributing.

Whatever... It got done without your help... Great community representative...

https://youtu.be/59SDY16ZwO0

 

[mattd2]

What are those pump you have?

 

[SpentBrains]

Hey Matt,

They are very inexpensive neoprene impeller 120v sprinkler pumps I found at Northern tool.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200635534_200635534

They have garden hose attach fittings rather than NPT attachments, so I had to purchase some GHT to 1/2" hose barb fittings. The heads are chromed bronze castings and they are not thick enough to machine so it's GHT or nothing. Because they need to be cleaned thoroughly, as the heads are not sanitary, I took them apart last time after using them. Clean in place might work. Unlike a higher quality pump that has magnetic coupling, they are direct A.C. motor drive so grain in the pump might cause a clog or impeller damage. Here's the good news, I found them on sale at the store and if I remember, they were about $54 each.

The first one is dedicated just for HLT water circulation. It's perfect for that use, but the wort pump bogs a little bit as the wort thickens. Not really a problem, but I'd like to see more output. I have yet to build a false bottom, so part of the issue may be the limited percolation I get around the intake screen at the bottom of the MT. I plan to work on a much larger false bottom even yet today. At least an upside down colander holding more grain off the screen tube but I may break down and order some perforated SS mesh or build bigger screen. I'll let you know, but I expect improved flow from that addition. I can always bail and spring for a march pump. Even with just the pick up screen the pump output is still around 2 GPM as the wort thickens. I may even dampen it to that output rate anyhow, but I suspect it will improve with a larger liquid cavity near the pick up in the MT.

 

[augiedoggy]

I know its kind of late now but here are some food grade pumps for the same price...

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/MARK-II-WORT-PUMP-P4028.aspx

 

[jcav]

Good job on your rig and nice video! Good luck with the first brew! Your gonna love it, I love mine!

John

 

[SpentBrains]

Awesome Augie.

If I ever have one fail that would be a great replacement. It looks like the exact same housing and pump size, only with a plastic rather than bronze pump.