German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[drewmuni8]

So being located in San Francisco I had never had Timbo Pils, but I did end up seeing a local bottle shop had some just come in so I grabbed a four pack. Pic below, the full pour is Timbo Pils, and the taster is my own.

Definitely my own lacks the aroma and extra 'west coast' flavor that Timbo Pils has. Mine is very very light on the mosaic, with a very subtle bitterness. Timbo is more a smack in the face with it.

I think both are great, but I can certainly see myself tweaking with more hops if I wanted to go after a more closely cloned version.

View attachment 690766

I was also lucky enough to get my hands on a 4-pack of Timbo recently at my local HBSS and concur that they nail the hopping down so the lager yeast doesn't overshadow it. It's killer. I went to Boston back in February and got a can of Tipopils at a bottle shop right next to Fenway (highly recommend if you find yourself there), and i noticed on the can that they brew it in Italy, ship it over to Connecticut, and then dry hop it there before packaging. Possibly use that method on this recipe as well? Minus shipping over the Atlantic, Letting the beer ferment out, transfer to keg for lagering, and then adding the hops before carbonating? Next time around ill give it a try and report back

 

[couchsending]

So being located in San Francisco I had never had Timbo Pils, but I did end up seeing a local bottle shop had some just come in so I grabbed a four pack. Pic below, the full pour is Timbo Pils, and the taster is my own.

Definitely my own lacks the aroma and extra 'west coast' flavor that Timbo Pils has. Mine is very very light on the mosaic, with a very subtle bitterness. Timbo is more a smack in the face with it.

I think both are great, but I can certainly see myself tweaking with more hops if I wanted to go after a more closely cloned version.

View attachment 690766

Also something to keep in mind is the quality of the hops HPB gets. They are hand selecting these hops every year and between the quality of the hops themselves and numerous other variables it doesn’t just come down to more hops when trying to replicate this beer. Not always but a lot of the time the hops we as homebrewers have access to are night and day different than what these guys are using. Also unless you’re fermenting in a stainless conical that can hold at least some pressure it’s pretty hard to replicate commercial hoppy beer that’s for sure.

I did hear Bob say in the Full Pint podcast that Timbo is a 3.5 week beer. Which makes sense based on the info he did provide in that article. Using dry 34/70 and fermenting at 53 then raising at 50% attenuation I’m sure this beer is done fermenting in 5-6 days. The dry hop timing and lagering schedule are the biggest unknown. I’d say they probably fine Timbo a bit if it’s a 3.5 week beer with that big of a dry hop load and ends up that clear. It has been a while but I was surprised by the lack of sulphur in the finished beer considering the relatively quick turn around for a lager.

 

[Nick Poggetti]

Thanks for the input guys.

That's some interesting info regarding the podcast regarding the timing of the beer. I'm quite confident in limiting majority of o2 pickup in my transfers, this one was done closed all the way at 2-3psi. I do know it's not perfect and I don't have the capability of commercial stuff, but have success with my hazy ipas lasting a good 4-6 weeks before showing any discernible difference transferring and dry hopping with the same process.

Some good thoughts for next time.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Also happened to get a drop of Timbo up here in Bend recently (praise the lord) and was able to refresh my palate. It's wild how much punch-you-in-the-face hop character that beer has.

 

[couchsending]

Also happened to get a drop of Timbo up here in Bend recently (praise the lord) and was able to refresh my palate. It's wild how much punch-you-in-the-face hop character that beer has.

god I would lose my mind if that stuff hit the shelves near me. Lucky guy!

When it cools down definitely gonna have some HPB shipped to my buddy in Tahoe and have him send it to me.

Still my most eye opening drinking experience in the last couple years.

 

[Andre3000]

Also happened to get a drop of Timbo up here in Bend recently (praise the lord) and was able to refresh my palate. It's wild how much punch-you-in-the-face hop character that beer has.

Dang! Where did you get it? I'll be in Bend in a month (Covid permitting), I'd love to try it.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Dang! Where did you get it? I'll be in Bend in a month (Covid permitting), I'd love to try it.

Market of Choice. It was there and gone in a day or two. They still have some Pleasant Pils tho.

Given how quickly the Timbo and Irresponsible (TIPA) sold out I doubt it'll be the last drop they get.

 

[couchsending]

Market of Choice. It was there and gone in a day or two. They still have some Pleasant Pils tho.

Given how quickly the Timbo and Irresponsible (TIPA) sold out I doubt it'll be the last drop they get.

Good to know. My sister is coming for a visit in two weeks. I’ll be sure to have her go look to see if there’s any there before she leaves town. MoC has always had some real gems when I’ve been in there. Pretty sure I bought some Paleo from Alvarado last time.

Last fall when I was at HPB I wasn't nearly as floored by their more “traditional” Pilsners. I think they had 4 or 5 on tap including Timbo. One was an Allagash colab.

 

[couchsending]

Just tasted the first sample after DH of a beer inspired by Timbo. I think I’ve only made one lager that had a large DH charge of some modern hop and it was long time ago. Hope to make a bunch of these in the future to try and dial something in.

Grain Bill was a blend of Weyermann Floor Malted Pils and Rahr 2 Row with some Chit malt for foam purposes.

This one is Perle at 70 and 40 then a blend of Calista and American Noble Cascade at 10 and WP. DH was 4oz of Ekuanot. Honestly my first time using Ekuanot. So many of the “green pepper” comments sort of scared me. I’ve had some 2017 and 2018 from YVH in my hop freezer forever. heard some great things about it in a Lager though so I said why not.

For those of you that might not brew a bunch of lager or even for those that do I can’t recommend the Andechs strain of lager yeast enough. Wyeast sells it as Rocky Mountain lager (Coors happens to use this strain fermented really warm under pressure) and White Labs sells it as German Lager X. Supposedly it’s the most popular lager strain at BSI, Inland Island sells it and Imperial has it for Pro.

I pitch a lot of yeast at 46, ferment at 50, let rise to 54 once below 1.020. It finishes in 6 days and drops incredibly clear. (Although German Lager X seems better than Rocky Mtn). It’s also pretty bulletproof. I’ll pitch yeast that’s been stored for a month into a starter and it starts right up. Seems to handle cold storage really well. The best part is it’s incredibly clean right away. Never had a lager yeast be this clean even before lagering, especially when fermented cold. It needs some help to really dry out but man is it good. I’m amazed that it’s only a “seasonal” release from White Labs and Wyeast. I’ve used a lot of different lager yeasts and this “strain” seems to be the least finicky, fastest, cleanest, that I’ve used. I think I’m on Gen 5 of the latest round and it acts exactly the same every time. If you can find it I highly highly highly recommend it!!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Is there a dry version of the Andechs strain? I've been using 34/70 for basically all my lagers and have zero complaints, but I'm always down to try new stuff.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Last fall when I was at HPB I wasn't nearly as floored by their more “traditional” Pilsners. I think they had 4 or 5 on tap including Timbo. One was an Allagash colab.

Agreed, all of their pilsners/lagers are good, but Timbo and the others of its ilk (Robo Pils, etc) are on another level. I also had that Allagash collab and it was a perfectly easy-drinking lager but definitely nothing wildly outstanding.

 

[couchsending]

Is there a dry version of the Andechs strain? I've been using 34/70 for basically all my lagers and have zero complaints, but I'm always down to try new stuff.

There is not.

 

[ba-brewer]

Lager X comes up quite often in the rotation, the whitelabs website has it coming back in oct/nov/dec release.

I start it at 50 and bump a couple degrees every few days and it finishes up quick and clean.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Somewhat on-topic, drinking my own Italian pilsner alongside Highland Park Brewery's Pleasant Pils and happy to say mine compares favorably!

Mine left, HPB right. Mine is a bit more malt forward (probably because of the 5% Mecca Grade Munich malt), theirs slightly hoppier. I'd happily drink both all summer long.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Just heard about these ‘american noble’ hops from ych.
https://shop.yakimachief.com/mosaic.html
Anyone try them in a pils? Sounds like a good option. I would think some larger breweries have already had access.

 

[couchsending]

Been using them for a little while now. Maybe 6-7 different beers. They’re sort of hard to find. Bought a ton from Rite Brew on sale this past winter.

They’re very interesting and unique. They come through incredibly floral in the beer. It’s honestly amazing how much impact even an ounce at 10 minutes can have. It’s very easy to pick out.

There isn’t a huge difference between all the varieties. I’ve used em all I think and there might be slight differences but the over riding floral character is very similar.

That being said they’re rather one dimensional. Very floral, touch of fruit, zero “hop stank” or pungent notes that would be found in the regular pellets. They lack any sort of spice or real depth however. I wouldn’t use them on their own but pairing them with something spicier is in my mind the way to go. I’ve got a few beers recently that I used them on. One was a more traditional pils where I paired them with Zuper Saazer from MI and this latest “modern pils” with some Calista in the kettle then the Ekuanot DH. I think Sterling could be a good pair as well, I just can’t seem to find any Sterling that’s any good. I’ve never dry hopped sign them cause they come through fermentation so strong I never really felt the need.

I have made a couple IPAs with them where I was trying to add every available product of one variety. Leaf, pellet, Cryo, and American Noble. They could be interesting to add to the fermenter right at the beginning as a lot of the compounds In hops that get biotransformed by yeast are actually in the leaf material and not in the oil itself. You also don’t get the potential negative side effects of adding a ton of alpha acids to the fermenter cause thyme I’ve virtually been removed.

 

[Andre3000]

So I've kegged it. Lagered it for 4 weeks. And I'm now sipping it.

The sample right at the start of lagering was horrible. After two weeks of lagering it was much nicer, very big hop presence with clean finish. And now it's... I'm not sure. There's a weird mouthfeel thing going on. Polyphenols? The hops also do not present themselves like you're used to, especially with Citra Mosaic. Aroma is there. Not as big as on a hazy/NEIPA and oddly kind of more dank than you might expect for Citra Mosaic. I actually don't think mine is bitter enough to be a "pilsner" if that word still means anything for this beer and I wish it was more bitter.

Gonna give it another few weeks in the kegerator before I pass judgement, but right now, maybe looking like a flop.

Still hazy AF, no picture required.

For those of you that might not brew a bunch of lager or even for those that do I can’t recommend the Andechs strain of lager yeast enough.

Interesting. I'll have to add that one to the list to try. Which one is it for the commercial pitches? I'm trying to settle on my go-to lager strain. I'm currently experimenting with L17 Harvest after seeing someone else highly recommend it. Have you tried it? Also known as WY2352 aka WLP686 aka Augustiner. It sounds similar in behavior. I made a starter and like you mentioned it was going in a couple hours after sitting in the fridge for a decent amount of time.

 

[Andre3000]

Somewhat on-topic, drinking my own Italian pilsner alongside Highland Park Brewery's Pleasant Pils and happy to say mine compares favorably!

Mine left, HPB right. Mine is a bit more malt forward (probably because of the 5% Mecca Grade Munich malt), theirs slightly hoppier. I'd happily drink both all summer long.

Looks fantastic! What was your hop schedule? Would you change it?

 

[couchsending]

Interesting. I'll have to add that one to the list to try. Which one is it for the commercial pitches? I'm trying to settle on my go-to lager strain. I'm currently experimenting with L17 Harvest after seeing someone else highly recommend it. Have you tried it? Also known as WY2352 aka WLP686 aka Augustiner. It sounds similar in behavior. I made a starter and like you mentioned it was going in a couple hours after sitting in the fridge for a decent amount of time.

I don’t know what it is about the Augustiner strain but I have made the worst lagers with that yeast. I’ve used the Wyeast, White Labs, and Inperial versions and they’ve all produced terrible beers. That being said a ton of people use and love it and it’s probably the 2nd most popular commercial lager strain for craft breweries in the US so I don’t really know what to say. I pitch a ton of yeast, oxygenate with a stone, add yeast nutrient, pitch cold and let warm slightly, have dialed water profiles, step mash, blah blah blah. Gotta have close to 40 lager brews by now. I get lots of sulfur every time. Never had sulfur issues with any other yeast. I don’t ever warm my lager fermentation’s past 54 other than Augustiner. It definitely likes it warmer than most strains which is why a lot of craft breweries use it.

Imperial sells the Andechs strain for pros as Pilgrimage I believe.

I can’t say enough good things about it. I don’t really have a big desire to try many more. I just put some East Coast Yeast Kellbier on a stir plate but after that I probably will just go back to using the Andechs strain. Just found a Homebrew shop in CO that had three vials of Inland Islands version of it so I nabbed them.

Gave a pitch to a buddy who was headed brewer at a top 50 US craft brewery. Moved on and starting his own place. Was set on Augustiner until he tried the pitch I gave him on a small pilot batch. Was blown away with how clean and soft and balanced it was and how fast it cleared.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Looks fantastic! What was your hop schedule? Would you change it?

I followed Jeff Alworth's advice, which he got from the brewer at Birrificio Italiano, and kept the dry hop additions very small, in two stages.

I bittered with Magnum to 27 IBU at 90 minutes, then hit it with another 8 IBU of Tettnang at 10 minutes.

Dry hop (in a 4 gal batch) was 7g in primary and 14g during a long cold crash, all Tettnang.

I don't know if I'd change it much. Maybe just a touch more dry hopping at each stage (10/20g?) and maybe 5 IBU less in the kettle. But it's pretty well-balanced as is. If anything I'll probably play with different noble hops. I know HPB uses Saphir in theirs.

Alworth's article is worth a read: There’s More to Italian Pilsners Than Dry-Hopping — Beervana

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I followed Jeff Alworth's advice, which he got from the brewer at Birrificio Italiano, and kept the dry hop additions very small, in two stages.

I bittered with Magnum to 27 IBU at 90 minutes, then hit it with another 8 IBU of Tettnang at 10 minutes.

Dry hop (in a 4 gal batch) was 7g in primary and 14g during a long cold crash, all Tettnang.

I don't know if I'd change it much. Maybe just a touch more dry hopping at each stage (10/20g?) and maybe 5 IBU less in the kettle. But it's pretty well-balanced as is. If anything I'll probably play with different noble hops. I know HPB uses Saphir in theirs.

Alworth's article is worth a read: There’s More to Italian Pilsners Than Dry-Hopping — Beervana

Have you seen the Pivo Pils recipe that Brynildson made available? I attempted a batch not long ago, with a couple substitutions, and it was outstanding. I highly recommend getting your hands on some Saphir hops. They’re delicious imo!

 

[deadwolfbones]

I followed Jeff Alworth's advice, which he got from the brewer at Birrificio Italiano, and kept the dry hop additions very small, in two stages.

I bittered with Magnum to 27 IBU at 90 minutes, then hit it with another 8 IBU of Tettnang at 10 minutes.

Dry hop (in a 4 gal batch) was 7g in primary and 14g during a long cold crash, all Tettnang.

Have you seen the Pivo Pils recipe that Brynildson made available? I attempted a batch not long ago, with a couple substitutions, and it was outstanding. I highly recommend getting your hands on some Saphir hops. They’re delicious imo!

View attachment 692463

Haven't seen the Pivo recipe, no. Got a link? I'd love to try it.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Haven't seen the Pivo recipe, no. Got a link? I'd love to try it.

No problem! Note the relatively small dry hop dose, yet I find the beer wonderfully aromatic if dry hopped properly. I think dry hopping at low temps corroborates methods used in NEIPA brewing and to preserve the aromatics.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Yep, that more or less matches what Alworth said about Birificio Italiano's methods.

 

[deadwolfbones]

So I've kegged it. Lagered it for 4 weeks. And I'm now sipping it.

The sample right at the start of lagering was horrible. After two weeks of lagering it was much nicer, very big hop presence with clean finish. And now it's... I'm not sure. There's a weird mouthfeel thing going on. Polyphenols? The hops also do not present themselves like you're used to, especially with Citra Mosaic. Aroma is there. Not as big as on a hazy/NEIPA and oddly kind of more dank than you might expect for Citra Mosaic. I actually don't think mine is bitter enough to be a "pilsner" if that word still means anything for this beer and I wish it was more bitter.

Gonna give it another few weeks in the kegerator before I pass judgement, but right now, maybe looking like a flop.

Still hazy AF, no picture required.

Just saw this, btw. Sorry to hear it! I'd give it some more time—up to a month—to see if additional lagering has an effect. My most recent attempt changed continuously up until it kicked.

 

[couchsending]

Biggest surprise for me with this latest lager dry hopped with Ekuanot is the bitterness pickup from the Dry Hop. I must say I’ve never experienced quite this big of a difference between pre and post DH. Definitely going to have to alter the hotside hops a bit next time.

 

[couchsending]

Brewing round 2 of this. Virtually the same as last time (except blending Floor malted Pils with some Golden Promise) on the hotside but 4oz Strata dry hop this time. The Ekuanot version is almost crystal clear and really needs no more lagering time. 21 days and it never got above 52*. Crazy how good this yeasts tastes right away. Hands down the best lager yeast I’ve ever used. Can’t recommend it enough.

I might brew a lot more of these beers now that I know I can turn them injust a few more days than the same beer brewed with Ale yeast.

 

[cuda6pak]

I've brewed this twice now, with pretty different results, 10gal batches.

Same grist for both:
90% Pils
10% Chit

First batch:
30min 1oz Wakatu (10 IBU)
0 - WP for 15min (From flameout to 185F)- 4oz Wakatu, 1oz Citra cryo, 1oz Mosaic cryo (35 IBU per Beersmith 3)
Ferment with Oslo @ 85F for 4 days
Soft crash to 60 and drop yeast on day 5
Day 6 DH with 3oz Citra cryo, 1oz Mosaic cryo
Day 8 Cold crash to 42F for 48 hours and package (Starsan filled CO2 purged kegs)
FG - 1.011
RO water (Ca 50, Mg 7, Na 20, SO4 75, Cl 75)

This batch held onto it's haze completely even with gelatin in one keg and a floating dip tube in the other. Much softer NEIPA-like fruitiness. I used a hop spider for this and even with whirpooling through a chugger pump the spider seemed fairly clogged with the excessive protein from the Chit which I think hurt utilization.

Second batch:
60min 1oz Pekko (28 IBU)
0 - drop to 165F and WP for 15 min - 2oz Mosaic cryo, 2oz Mosaic pellet (10 IBU per Beersmith 3)
Ferment with 34/70 at 59F, rise to 68F on day 5
Day 8 Slow drop to 56F over 2 days
Day 10 dump yeast and DH with 3 oz Citra cryo
Day 12 cold rash at 42F for 48 hours and package (Starsan filled CO2 purged kegs)
FG - 1.009
RO Water (Ca 35, Mg 0, Na 8, SO4 36, CL 38)

I did not use a hop spider for this batch and I think utilization increased quite a bit due to it. Despite using all cryo the DH hops have quite a bitter/aggressive taste to them, without as much aroma as the first batch. Current keg on tap has been at 38F for 3.5 weeks with a floating dip tube to avoid any cryo burn. It seems to be cleaning up slightly vs when first tapped, but I think still might be too bitter. Surprised at how the hop flavor/aroma came out on this vs the first batch. This one is also very clear vs the first batch.

 

[Andre3000]

I've brewed this twice now, with pretty different results, 10gal batches.

Same grist for both:
90% Pils
10% Chit

First batch:
30min 1oz Wakatu (10 IBU)
0 - WP for 15min (From flameout to 185F)- 4oz Wakatu, 1oz Citra cryo, 1oz Mosaic cryo (35 IBU per Beersmith 3)
Ferment with Oslo @ 85F for 4 days
Soft crash to 60 and drop yeast on day 5
Day 6 DH with 3oz Citra cryo, 1oz Mosaic cryo
Day 8 Cold crash to 42F for 48 hours and package (Starsan filled CO2 purged kegs)
FG - 1.011
RO water (Ca 50, Mg 7, Na 20, SO4 75, Cl 75)

This batch held onto it's haze completely even with gelatin in one keg and a floating dip tube in the other. Much softer NEIPA-like fruitiness. I used a hop spider for this and even with whirpooling through a chugger pump the spider seemed fairly clogged with the excessive protein from the Chit which I think hurt utilization.

Second batch:
60min 1oz Pekko (28 IBU)
0 - drop to 165F and WP for 15 min - 2oz Mosaic cryo, 2oz Mosaic pellet (10 IBU per Beersmith 3)
Ferment with 34/70 at 59F, rise to 68F on day 5
Day 8 Slow drop to 56F over 2 days
Day 10 dump yeast and DH with 3 oz Citra cryo
Day 12 cold rash at 42F for 48 hours and package (Starsan filled CO2 purged kegs)
FG - 1.009
RO Water (Ca 35, Mg 0, Na 8, SO4 36, CL 38)

I did not use a hop spider for this batch and I think utilization increased quite a bit due to it. Despite using all cryo the DH hops have quite a bitter/aggressive taste to them, without as much aroma as the first batch. Current keg on tap has been at 38F for 3.5 weeks with a floating dip tube to avoid any cryo burn. It seems to be cleaning up slightly vs when first tapped, but I think still might be too bitter. Surprised at how the hop flavor/aroma came out on this vs the first batch. This one is also very clear vs the first batch.

Wow two radically different methods. Which one did you prefer? I just got some Lutra which is supposedly Oslo. Interested to try it but I'm trying to nail my basic pilsner method before I attempt this recipe again.

 

[cuda6pak]

I prefered the first version. I was pretty surprised how different they turned out despite being fairly similar in grist, water profile, hops used in WP/DH. Really the biggest difference was the yeast used, the bittering hops being shifted back, and hop spider usage.

On the second attempt my goal was just to increase the bittering, and try an actual lager yeast with it.