Blichmann Fermenator Revelation

[Bones1948]

For years I've enjoyed my Blichmann Fermenator and have always transferred to a secondary fermenter just like the brew instructions say to do.

Several months ago I had a Duh-h-h! moment: The purpose of transferring into a secondary fermenter is to remove the beer off the sediment (trub). Right?

So this is my new process. When the primary fermentation is finished (silent airlock) I simply don a shoulder length OB glove (the kind the veterinarians use to palpate the uterus of a cow) (get 'em at Amazon), sanitize it w/ spray mist of a 50/50 mix of tapwater/generic Everclear (Mohawk brand 95% ethyl alcohol $11/liter, nothing can live in it). I likewise sanitize a 7" diameter ceramic salad plate and w/ my gloved arm ease it into the deep conical area of the Blichmann ~1" below the racking arm. Voila! The trub has very effectively been separated from the trub w/o disturbing the beer so the beer is now in the secondary. Any further sediment formed during the secondary will seal around the edges of the plate.

BTW, my method of sanitizing everything is w/ the tapwater/booze concoction. Spray/mist bottles are a buck at any Dollar Store.

 

[kh54s10]

Unless you get a really good seal around the plate, your beer is still in primary! It's a conical! why don't you just open the valve and dump the trub?

Look at your other post about the cost of your alcohol sanitizer.

 

[Rev2010]

Is this another joke post? If you have a dump valve on the bottom (which that is what the dump is *designed* for), why are you taking the more difficult route? Also, why aren't you simply using StarSan??


Rev.

 

[jmcquesten]

Is this another joke post? If you have a dump valve on the bottom (which that is what the dump is *designed* for), why are you taking the more difficult route? Also, why aren't you simply using StarSan??


Rev.

It certainly seems like it. Why go through the trouble (expense) of a conical to try something like this? Makes no sense. On the other hand, sounds like a great way to introduce unwanted oxygen a beer.

 

[postalbunny]

In the off chance that this isn't a joke, i'll mention the oxygen exposure by trying to grab the trub by hand... you don't want to open the fermenter while you're still conditioning because o2 will rush in and mix with the co2. Your beer won't go "bad" but it will oxidize faster and won't be as fresh as long due to this practice. I leave everything in the primary for a week and half and then transfer to a keg with a shortened dip tube.

 

[jmcquesten]

In the off chance that this isn't a joke, i'll mention the oxygen exposure by trying to grab the trub by hand... you don't want to open the fermenter while you're still conditioning because o2 will rush in and mix with the co2. Your beer won't go "bad" but it will oxidize faster and won't be as fresh as long due to this practice. I leave everything in the primary for a week and half and then transfer to a keg with a shortened dip tube.

I would say the beer COULD go bad. Of course "bad" is subjective, but wet cardboard, or sherry, or however people like to describe oxidized, isn't "good".

 

[jmcquesten]

Edited.

 

[plazola86]

That's an awesome idea! Do you brew anything other than troll juice?

 

[Rodent]

OP - maybe you could highlight where the Blichmann brew instructions recommend racking to a secondary. Here's a screen grab of the manual in case you need a reference

Manual here: https://www.blichmannengineering.com/sites/default/files/F3 Owners Manual-V9.pdf

 

[Bones1948]

The dump valve design: Too small an aperture to completely flush all the thick gooey trub. Flushes some of it but leaves much of it. That is my experience w/ the Blichmann. That valve should be re-designed w/ a minimally 2" inner diameter aperture.

Introducing oxygen into the beer: Nope, threrfore no oxygenation of the beer. The process of placing the plate into the Blichmann requires total lid-off time of less than 7 seconds with practice, plus, done carefully the surface of the beer is minimally disturbed when introducing the arm into it. Further, the molecular weight of the carbon dioxide sitting on top of the beer is 44g per mole; that of the oxygen is 32g/mole. Carbon dioxide therefore is heavier than atmospheric oxygen so oxygen cannot penetrate the carbon dioxide unless violently disturbed which the process of inserting the plate into the conical is not. Atmospheric oxygen floats on top of the carbon dioxide. No different than water being heavier than oil hence oil floats on top of water. Any oxygen introduced into the carbon dioxide will abruptly float to the top of the carbon dioxide! Not to mention the fact the beer continues the production of carbon dioxide which will displace any minute and insignificant amount of oxygen introduced on top the surface of the beer.

Think of this: Transferring the primary juice to a secondary container exposes the beer to oxygen simply by the fact the secondary container is full of oxygen!

I have done three 5 gallon batches with my new Blichmann method all producing excellent beers. The "seal" at the edges of the plate has proven sufficient to preclude contamination from the trub.

BTW, my last batch of troll juice was done using StarSan. That's why I switched to ethyl alcohol mist. An 11 dollar bottle of ethyl alcohol sanitizes equipment for many batches of brew and has a shelf life of infinity.

 

[kh54s10]

Wrong in so many ways. Maybe you leave some trub, but that the dump valve it is for. You certainly are introducing oxygen by plunging a plate and your arm into the beer. Not to mention increasing the risk of infection. Your description of co2 and oxygen not mixing is false, they do mix. If it were true we would all be dead because the oxygen would be high in the atmosphere. Why secondary at all. Many if not most homebrewers don't do secondaries any more. There is no such thing as contamination from the trub unless you are leaving the beer on the trub for more than 1/2 a year, maybe longer. Your trouble with the infection is very unlikely due to the use of Starsan. It would most likely be that something wasn't clean or improper use of the Starsan.

 

[Rodent]

Think of this: Transferring the primary juice to a secondary container exposes the beer to oxygen simply by the fact the secondary container is full of oxygen!

Here's a excellent place to improve your process, if you're set on utilizing an (IMO) unnecessary secondary:

I recommend you do a full CO2 purge of the secondary vessel if you're set on using one. To do so, completely fill it with with sanitizer solution and then use 2-3 psi CO2 pressure to push all of the sanitizer solution out into a keg or collection bucket. Now you have a secondary that is both sanitized and free of O2. To fill it, use a similar process to pressure transfer from your conical into the secondary.

 

[Bones1948]

After carefully pondering the Blichmann brew instructions I have to say it makes sense on paper. However, it has been my experience the Blichmann instruct is overly simplified. It just doesn't work that easy. I can see where early-on and frequent dumping would help but still there remains enough sediment to contaminate the beer. (My process includes placing a large sanitized fine-meshed nylon bag into the Blichmann then pour the cooled wort into; this effectively filters most of the sediment formed during the boil) Further, every time one dumps from the bottom that volume of crud is replaced by atmospheric oxygen entering the top of the Blichmann. As 'splained previously that oxygen would not penetrate the carbon dixoide barrier but I'd rather not have it in there. Let's remember the Blichmann people are selling a product and publish instructions making their product fail-safe. In reality the stated simplicity that is not always the reality.

I am satisfied the interface of the brew with that of the goo beneath the plate (at the edges of the plate) are minute to the extent it has no influence on the quality of the finished product.

Just thought I'd pass this along. Works for me!

 

[kh54s10]

Two things: 1) The carbon dioxide layer is false. The gasses will mix. 2) What are you worried about as far as contamination from the trub? Having trub in the container will not influence the quality of the finished product, unless you leave it in there for a VERY long time.

 

[Rev2010]

Two things: 1) The carbon dioxide layer is false. The gasses will mix.

They absolutely will. Sounds like he doesn't have great scientific knowledge of stratification. Yes the gases have different molecular weights, but it takes quite some time for them to separate. It's not a sudden immediate interactive process. If they stayed completely separate a fermenter would retain it's co2 indefinitely when opened but we know in the real world that doesn't happen.


Rev.

 

[postalbunny]

Yeah... i wasnt speaking to a co2 layern more that during fermentation the yeast consume o2 and expell co2 which pushes/mixes the atmosphere out the airlock. Enough co2 is produced during ferm that you can be sure aftwr "primary" the fermenter has little to no o2 inside. Once you pop that top to xfer, or root around with gloves exposure begins as the gases mix. Xfering to a keg or bottles is less exposure than putting your fist inside and scooping trub out. Less contact with o2 post ferm the longer your beer will stay fresh

 

[Rev2010]

Yeah... i wasnt speaking to a co2 layern more that during fermentation the yeast consume o2 and expell co2 which pushes/mixes the atmosphere out the airlock. Enough co2 is produced during ferm that you can be sure aftwr "primary" the fermenter has little to no o2 inside.

O2 is primarily consumed during the initial lag phase when yeast use the oxygen towards building their cellular walls which I recall is for healthy reproduction. During this period there is typically very little CO2 production which is why the airlock doesn't start bubbling during this phase. The sugar consumption (fermentation) phase is when they start releasing CO2 and ethanol.


Rev.

 

[postalbunny]

O2 is primarily consumed during the initial lag phase when yeast use the oxygen towards building their cellular walls which I recall is for healthy reproduction. During this period there is typically very little CO2 production which is why the airlock doesn't start bubbling during this phase. The sugar consumption (fermentation) phase is when they start releasing CO2 and ethanol.


Rev.

Right... what i am getting at is there is no "co2 layer" that your disturbing when you transfer or bottle... rather that the fermenter is mostly co2 because the o2 has been consumed. Any leftover ambient o2 in the carboy likely got purged by active ferm. You could leave the carboy alone for a long time without ill effects. Its once you pop that airlock off to transfer/bottle that you now are allowing o2 in to oxidize.

And your especially causing more oxidizing if your digging in there with gloves splashing trying to get trub out. If you then seal the ferm again after that and let it "secondary" you likely are going to get stale tasting beer.

 

[kh54s10]

And your especially causing more oxidizing if your digging in there with gloves splashing trying to get trub out. If you then seal the ferm again after that and let it "secondary" you likely are going to get stale tasting beer.

Well the OP is not spashing to get the trub out. He stated he uses a long glove to take a plate and put it in the cone of the conical above the trub. His idea is that this separates the beer from the trub like doing a secondary. I pointed out that if he doesn't get a total seal between the plate and the sides of the conical he is NOT separating the beer from the trub. He states that the beer is not disturbed and is only exposed for seven seconds. That is also false. Just the act of plunging a plate to the bottom is introducing quite a bit of oxygen.

 

[Rev2010]

Right... what i am getting at is there is no "co2 layer" that your disturbing when you transfer or bottle... rather that the fermenter is mostly co2 because the o2 has been consumed.

Sorry, I was merely being a stickler about when in the process the yeast consume O2, nothing more


Rev.

 

[Bones1948]

"Sounds like he doesn't have great scientific knowledge"

Of course the carbon dioxide and oxygen are miscible...if stirred! If not stirred, it requires time for them to misc according to the laws of dynamic pressure, kinetic theory, Bernoulli's Principle and scores of other laws and theories figured out by the likes of Issac Newton, Eistein etc.! A matter of the laws of physics of which I have extensive expertise.... a college minor in physics plus having taught physics and chemistry laboratories while in graduate school.

Please allow me to clarify: Introducing the plate into the Blichmann is by a very gentle immersion of the plate into the bottom of the canister. There is no "plunging of the plate" (which infers a violent action), no "rooting around with gloves", no "putting my fist inside and scooping trub out", no "digging in there with gloves splashing trying to get trub out"....all stated in the several responses to my thread.

Certainly the carbon dioxide in the Blichmann is exposed to oxygen... but only for a very few seconds. Just how much of that oxygen do you think actually gets into the beer? Negligible and insignificant if one takes time to think through my process.

Secondary fermentation is still controversial. I am of the secondary fermentation school. That is my preference. There is no scientific evidence I am wrong.

Further, I will admit my expertise in the field of infection what-with my Master's Degree in Cellular Biology/Bacteriology not to mention the fact I am a surgeon. BTW, we don't squirt down the operatory suite w/ StarSan. In reality we use a much more toxic poison than that stuff or for that matter ethyl alcohol.

The purpose of my original thread was to share my successes with use of the Blichmann. Why all the negativity? A sad reminder of why I left the HomebrewTalk Forum several years ago. It is a toxic environment.

 

[kh54s10]

The purpose of my original thread was to share my successes with use of the Blichmann. Why all the negativity? A sad reminder of why I left the HomebrewTalk Forum several years ago. It is a toxic environment.

I think you need to look at all the responses and answer that question for yourself. You don't have much agreement that your successes are something that is needed. Some of what you have said has been pretty well disputed.

I personally find HBT anything but toxic. If you find it toxic, I think you need to figure out what the cause of the toxicity is.

 

[Bones1948]

Responses from a bunch of uneducated sots.

I'm outa here.

 

[jmcquesten]

Responses from a bunch of uneducated sots.

I'm outa here.

Seems like the best way to wrap up this ridiculous topic.

 

[Rev2010]

I know it's been debunked as coming from Socrates but still a great quote by an anonymous source: "When debate has been lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

For a surgeon with several proclaimed Masters degrees I'm not only surprised to see such a behavioral response but more curious why not just upgrade to a conical that has a wider dump valve port like that proudly touted by Spike Brewing? I felt he had a good point in that I wasn't aware of the Blichmann Fermenator as having a narrower dump valve opening. There are better options on the market though to fix that issue and for someone with that pay grade I think ordering another conical and selling off the Blichmann would be the logical way to go.


Rev.

 

[kh54s10]

Responses from a bunch of uneducated sots.

I'm outa here.

Hate to say it, but I think someone needs to look into a mirror. Not just me but look at all the other responses.

 

[Bobby_M]

If a conical's dump valve cannot do its job in dumping trub, the design is an utter failure period. Opening the top of the conical is not the solution. I'd go with a sledge hammer.

 

[jmcquesten]

If a conical's dump valve cannot do its job in dumping trub, the design is an utter failure period. Opening the top of the conical is not the solution. I'd go with a sledge hammer.

^^^ This. (or operator error)