Black IPA

[Stillraining]

So I have a current "Regular" IPA that is a home run ( According to anyone who's drank it) . Its so close to Dirty Buckets Black IPA in flavor and aroma its not funny....Only thing is theirs is just that tad bit smoother/melower then mine in bitterness on the finish...which I believe is due to the dark malts used for a black, probably Chocolate malt ...Is this thinking whacked or on target?

Disclaimer....I'm not an IPA guy...Dirty Bucket Black is the first IPA I have ever been able to actually drink, my wife ordered it on a recent brewery tour. She had enough to drink for the day at that point, so asked if I wanted to finish it about 1/2 way through...I could not believe how good it was nor how similar it was to the brew I had made for 2 friends I just got into brewing. Very Very smooth and I think I can tweak mine to get it there.

So back to the question, will just adding Chocolate malt add any smoothness or just astringency? Is there something better to use to knock the edge off the finish like theirs? Or is this just wishful thinking and only an exact duplicate recipe will suffice......I have to believe its possible. I'm so close I can taste it.

 

[kh54s10]

There is no knowing unless you give the rest of the recipe. It could be a roasted malt that you are using or the type and schedule of hop additions.

 

[Stillraining]

There is no knowing unless you give the rest of the recipe. It could be a roasted malt that you are using or the type and schedule of hop additions.

OK I will post it...To Clarify Mine is not a Black IPA.....BUT... I want to turn it into one.

Any tip for uploading a Beersmith created recipe to here?

 

[Double_D]

In addition to what @kh54s10 said, is it might depend on when they're adding the dark malts vs what you're doing.

Edit: well I guess that's figured out then....new post while I was typing

 

[Stillraining]

Scotty's Home Run IPA

American IPA (14 B)



Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 13.54 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 11.54 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 10.90 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage


Date: 16 Apr 2016
Brewer: Scotty
Asst Brewer:
Equipment: My Equipment 10 GAL
Efficiency: 90.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 90.9 %
Taste Rating: 48.0


Taste Notes: So far only.... "WOW! you made this!" or "Damm this is one of the best IPA's Ive ever had"....But other then that what do I know I hate IPA's


Total Water Needed: 15.64 gal



14 lbs 3.7 oz NW Pale Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 78.2 %
12.6 oz Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.3 %
12.6 oz Munich (BestMälz) (7.6 SRM) Grain 3 4.3 %
12.6 oz Wheat Malt, Dark (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.3 %


Step Time

Mash In Add 5.29 gal of water at 163.4 F 152.0 F 55 min
◯ Batch sparge with 10.35 gal water at 168.0 F

◯ Continue Sparging if needed to achieve boil volume of 13.54 gal
◯ Estimated pre-boil gravity is 1.044 SG


1 lbs 9.6 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5 8.8 %
2.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 38.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 10.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Azacca [9.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 3.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 3.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Azacca [9.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs

◯ Estimated Post Boil Vol: 11.54 gal and Est Post Boil Gravity: 1.054 SG


American West Coast (Danstar # BRY-97) Slurry cake starter size of your choice. ( I only use 2 cups) Ya! ya! just drink the beer and then tell me its not enough... you'll see..... or use two packages if your just starting out.

◯ Measure Actual Original Gravity _______ (Target: 1.054 SG)
◯ Measure Actual Batch Volume _______ (Target: 11.00 gal)
◯ Add water if needed to achieve final volume of 11.00 gal

Fermentation
◯ 16 Apr 2016 - Primary Fermentation (7.00 days at 66.0 F ending at 70.0 F)
◯ 22 Apr 2016 - Primary bucket Secondary conditioning/Fermentation (7.00 days at 68.0 F ending at 68.0 F)

Dry Hop and Bottle/Keg

◯ Dry hop in same bucket for 7 more days. (Three weeks total time in Primary bucket only.)

Dry Hop/Bottling Ingredients



2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs


◯ Measure Final Gravity: _________ (Estimate: 1.011 SG)
◯ Date Bottled/Kegged: 30 Apr 2016 - Carbonation: Bottle with 8.56 oz Corn Sugar
◯ Age beer for 30.00 days at 65.0 F
◯ 30 May 2016 - Drink and enjoy!

OH PS: You must use Primary buckets with valves for this to turn out right..

 

[Double_D]

For black ipas I keep by black malt under 5% and add it to the sparge or at the end or vorlaufing, which is actually my mash out... I also prefer carafa 3 special because its debittered.

Edit: because I'm slow, same as before. Except for our dark malt preference. I usually use either Munich or crystal not both. But I like dry ipas, just my .02

 

[Stillraining]

For black ipas I keep by black malt under 5% and add it to the sparge or at the end or vorlaufing, which is actually my mash out... I also prefer carafa 3 special because its debittered.

Edit: because I'm slow, same as before. Except for our dark malt preference. I usually use either Munich or crystal not both. But I like dry ipas, just my .02

So do you think adding your Carafa 3 will add any smoothness/richness? Or is this barking up the wrong tree?

My point of this whole thread being I dont just want color. I'm after a stout or porter richness with this exact IPA hop profile. I have nailed the hops just need to balance it better for a Black...at least "Their Black" and the one I want to drink/put my name on.
I'm totally cool with starting over with a different base recipe to accomplish that but this is so darn close its not funny, so seems counter intuitive.

 

[Double_D]

I'd say try it (your recipe) with some dark malt, either really. The change in color and malt character will shift your perception of the bitterness (making it taste different, possibly smoother?). Unfortunately, I've never seen the beer you are trying to replicate. I can tell you I use more crystal malts in my black ipas than I do in my DIPAs, to support the roast so I may have been hasty to voice my opinion on your malt bill.

In my experience, dark malt isn't what adds smoothness or richness to a dark beer. That's ageing, mash temp, water, and character malts combined.

I'm not sure of the percentage but I know that more than a few people around here are of the opinion that black ipas are ipas tinted black with black malt and roast is kept at a minimum...sorry I can't help you more.

 

[Stillraining]

No apologizes necessary, you have helped more then anyone else so far. Thank you!

 

[hottpeper13]

Using Bries Black Prince will add color without any roast or bitter flavor. carafa III will add a small amount of roast flavor. As far as the bitterness of your current brew I would move 1oz of the 30 min to FWH,that should smooth things out a bit.

 

[MVKTR2]

Double_D & hottpeper13's comments are dead on. I would add 2 things, for malt richness Victory/Biscuit or Amber malt at 6-12 oz per 5 gallons depending on what you want helps to accentuate malt character in hoppy beer. For smoothing out the bitterness, there is a high probability your water is deeply influences the bitter-character of your beer. If you generally like your current IPAs using your water I'd suggest replacing 30-50% of your water with distilled/RO water. Basically you'll be softening your water which will make the bitterness smoother ... which if I understand you correctly is most important to what you're looking for.

Good luck!

 

[Stillraining]

Thanks guys. I'm brewing Saturday...I will keep you posted as to what I change/add.
We are doing a 30 gallon brew day so I dont know if I will have the time/energy to split off one of the 10 gallons into yet another 5/5 split batch to try 2 different suggestions...Like RO water vs not... And I'm only wanting to change one or two things max at a time so I have a better handle on what did what.

But we will see how I feel come Saturday..I might be full of piss and vinegar and just go for it.

 

[Stillraining]

Using Bries Black Prince will add color without any roast or bitter flavor. carafa III will add a small amount of roast flavor. As far as the bitterness of your current brew I would move 1oz of the 30 min to FWH,that should smooth things out a bit.

OK I have been playing around in Beer smith and moved 1oz like you said to FWH...but that sends the IBU's 15 points higher...I understand the concept of it being a different kind of bittering, smoother and all that but it's still bittering and has me spun out....What about moving that same 1oz to flame out?

Maybe its just the whole tasting is believing thing and I need to trust your wisdom ..but its not easy to pull the trigger on that decision right at the moment. Re-assure me again..

 

[Natdavis777]

For black ipas I keep by black malt under 5% and add it to the sparge or at the end or vorlaufing, which is actually my mash out... I also prefer carafa 3 special because its debittered.

This is what I do as well. I add some carafa special 3 after the mashout and while I am vourloufing the MLT. I will recirculate for 15 min the runoff into the kettle. It usually results in color contribution only with very little roasted flavor noted in the beer.

I would like to try some midnight wheat sometime

 

[Stillraining]

I would like to try some midnight wheat sometime

Funny you should say that....I just returned form my LHBS a couple hours ago with some...Its going in..

 

[madcowbrewing]

For my Black IPA I use the exact same grain and hop schedule, but I take my dark grains (about 24 oz, notes are at home) and cold steep them overnight. Just before the end of the boil I strain out the liquid and boil by itself then add as I am whirl pooling. Fantastic flavor, nothing astringent, and a smooth flavor.

 

[Stillraining]

For my Black IPA I use the exact same grain and hop schedule, but I take my dark grains (about 24 oz, notes are at home) and cold steep them overnight. Just before the end of the boil I strain out the liquid and boil by itself then add as I am whirl pooling. Fantastic flavor, nothing astringent, and a smooth flavor.

That sounds enticing even if a bit laborious. Nothing good comes free as the saying goes. I might just try this. And strangely my dark grains will be 25 oz but that's for 10g whats your batch volume?

Wait! your not adding any darker grains in addition too your regular IPA?

 

[madcowbrewing]

That sounds enticing even if a bit laborious. Nothing good comes free as the saying goes. I might just try this. And strangely my dark grains will be 25 oz but that's for 10g whats your batch volume?



Wait! your not adding any darker grains in addition too your regular IPA?

This was for 5g, but I feel you need the double volume since you are not mashing, you are steeping. But if you want a subtle roast flavor you could do just he 25 oz for the ten gallons.

I mash my regular IPA grains and the only addition is the cold steeping of the dark grains. None added to the mash tun.

 

[Stillraining]

Ah thanks for clarifying...I could not tell if you were saying you didnt add any darker grains at all, and just boiled the existing dark ones separate...I personally could not see how that would darken anything up.

Thanks for clarifying

I'm leaning in the direction of splitting my batch so I can try a couple different of your'alls suggestions... But I'm leaving It as a brew day call rather I'm going to be up for it or not on brew day.

As mentioned I will be overseeing 30 gallons and 3 mash tuns already...that's just about enough work out for me as it is.

 

[hottpeper13]

OK I have been playing around in Beer smith and moved 1oz like you said to FWH...but that sends the IBU's 15 points higher...I understand the concept of it being a different kind of bittering, smoother and all that but it's still bittering and has me spun out....What about moving that same 1oz to flame out?

Maybe its just the whole tasting is believing thing and I need to trust your wisdom ..but its not easy to pull the trigger on that decision right at the moment. Re-assure me again..

I made a few beers while trying to figure out the FWH addition. There isn't much on the subject.So first I only bittered with FWH and no 60 min, just 10 and 0 additions. Those 2 beers were almost undrinkable they were so sweet tasting(both finished at 1.010(2565 Kolsch yeast) The answer is in Gorden Strongs new book Modern Homebrew Recipes and that is FWH, 20 ,10, 0 and +10 min additions. Try it, I get comments like,wow so much hop flavor and smooth bitterness. Kinda hate giving Gorden credit but ya know, credits due where credits due. Would have taken me about 6 more brews before I got there but read the book and went NO S@#$.

 

[jjeffers09]

+1 to the blackprinz double IPA. That is the roasted malt I would go for. Carafa roasted malts being a close 2nd... or acceptable substitution. That's for those of us that know what it is like to put together that perfect recipe. Then get to the shop, and the guy before you just bought the shop out of that "it-factor" grain you have been hunting down for 3 weeks.

 

[Stillraining]

I made a few beers while trying to figure out the FWH addition. There isn't much on the subject.So first I only bittered with FWH and no 60 min, just 10 and 0 additions. Those 2 beers were almost undrinkable they were so sweet tasting(both finished at 1.010(2565 Kolsch yeast) The answer is in Gorden Strongs new book Modern Homebrew Recipes and that is FWH, 20 ,10, 0 and +10 min additions. Try it, I get comments like,wow so much hop flavor and smooth bitterness. Kinda hate giving Gorden credit but ya know, credits due where credits due. Would have taken me about 6 more brews before I got there but read the book and went NO S@#$.

Consider it done...thanks brother!:rockin:

 

[Stillraining]

+1 to the blackprinz double IPA. That is the roasted malt I would go for. Carafa roasted malts being a close 2nd... or acceptable substitution. That's for those of us that know what it is like to put together that perfect recipe. Then get to the shop, and the guy before you just bought the shop out of that "it-factor" grain you have been hunting down for 3 weeks.

Came home yesterday with 3 grains...Chocolate, Midnight Wheat and Carafa III..... But No Black prince........... yet I looked at it and pondered it for a minute or 3....So many options so little time.

Next Time....Thanks Mate!

 

[Beer-lord]

I have 2 Black IPA recipes that I brew often. And they are different because sometimes I like a hoppy/stout type black IPA and others, I just like a dark and bitter version.
My friends all prefer the more roasty version and I make it the most but, according to BJCP,

A beer with the dryness, hop-forward balance, and flavor characteristics of an American IPA, only darker in color – but without strongly roasted or burnt flavors. The flavor of darker malts is gentle and supportive, not a major flavor component. Drinkability is a key characteristic.

so I guess one of my black IPA's is NOT a black IPA if it's too roasty but how much roast takes it out of that category?

 

[jjeffers09]

Anything that tastes like burnt coffee or has a strong coffee burnt bread character is to much, imo. I look for a supportive subtle variant of bitterness and body not a forward character in the beer when it comes to the roast in a black IPA. If not you are really making an extra bitter stout to me.

 

[Stillraining]

Good question..

The Dirty Bucket that I'm trying to replicate just has that "Supportive" roll mentioned above with regards to the black malt usages...Its not overly roast'y or even greatly noticeable...If you were to close your eyes you would be hard pressed to tell what color it was. Or at least I would not be able to, maybe a judge could.... And just maybe it actually does fall out of the BJCP standards for a Black IPA, I have no clue about that....That doesn't matter to me one Iota, because I dont compete with anyone but myself..

But its the Smoothest IPA I have ever had. And I believe its due to the blends of grains as much as the hop profile. (Water not withstanding as already has been brought up.)

I bet I would lean toward the same roasty'er porter you make then the other one same as most your friends...but I'm shooting for somewhere in between. Or at least I think I am. :fro:

 

[BeardedBrews]

I think you're going to nail it, and my recommendation is to the Carafa 3.

I run about 7% in my 21st Ammendment Back in Black clone attempt, and there is a mild roast roast character that shows through. I could probably cut back to 4-5% and still get enough color, and as others have pointed out, capping the mash or cold steeping will take even more of the flavor out without losing much on color.

Ultimately I prefer a subtle contribution from the dark malt in the flavor profile. I want to be able to close my eyes and think "hmm, this is an IPA with a little something more from the malt" (fuller, complex, possibly toast/roast). I'm not simply looking for a black colored standard IPA.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/337214/back-in-black-ipa

 

[dstockwell]

Only thing is theirs is just that tad bit smoother/melower then mine in bitterness on the finish...which I believe is due to the dark malts used for a black, probably Chocolate malt ...Is this thinking whacked or on target?

Maybe I'm confused but I went to the Dirty Bucket Brews site and the only black IPA I see Full Nelson Black Ale

Using a perfect blend of dark roasted malts, and a healthy dose of New Zealand's Nelson Sauvin hops, this single hop black ale is everything IPA drinkers are looking for and then some.

So could it be the hops they are using makes it smoother/mellower, as I don't see a sub for Nelson Sauvin.

 

[Stillraining]

You sir are correct...That's the beer.

I will eventually try it with only Nelson Sauvin hops...Really I will...
The only thing is, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the flavor /Aroma of that beer and mine as it stands right now. I am so close to what they have I didn't want to start completely over. I'm trying to get there through the back door so to speak.

I'm not interested in duplicating it necessarily exactly. In order to be able to call it a Clone.

I have brewed my beer several times now for my friends, long before I tasted their beer. Once I did however it shook my world and could not believe how smooth it was with the almost exact flavor and aroma of mine...So I had to try to get there....That's all this thread is about. Will I succeed?..I think I can but who knows. And if I do It will definitely be my beer not theirs..

That one bitter component I'm trying to hide, subdue or mellow out in my beer may very well be changed by just switching it all to a Single hop Nelson Sauvin beer like theirs and be done with it. But once I start adding black malts that could be chasing the same tail from a different direction at that point too. They do state they have a perfect blend of bark malts after all. What the heck is that? LOL Its not just a colored IPA.

Nothing ventured nothing gained. Right? And it gives us something to talk about and learn from...to me that's half the fun.

 

[dstockwell]

Well one thing you can do to add the color without overpowering the roast is cold steep some black grains. I grind black patent in the spice grinder then cold steep overnight, and add liquid last 15 minutes of boil.

 

[Stillraining]

Well one thing you can do to add the color without overpowering the roast is cold steep some black grains. I grind black patent in the spice grinder then cold steep overnight, and add liquid last 15 minutes of boil.

Yep... that has been suggested and I will definitely be trying that....If not this batch on a future one for sure.. For ease of process this time, I believe I will try the dark grains in at Vorluf as was suggested By Double-D this go round. I do want to impart some specialty malt charictor.

If I do end up deciding to split the batch beforehand I will try the overnight steeping thing for one of them though. Thanks!

 

[Stillraining]

I think you're going to nail it, and my recommendation is to the Carafa

Ultimately I prefer a subtle contribution from the dark malt in the flavor profile. I want to be able to close my eyes and think "hmm, this is an IPA with a little something more from the malt" (fuller, complex, possibly toast/roast). I'm not simply looking for a black colored standard IPA.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/337214/back-in-black-ipa

BINGO!...

We think Alike!

And Thanks brother!

With all you good peoples help I know I am.

 

[madcowbrewing]

Ah thanks for clarifying...I could not tell if you were saying you didnt add any darker grains at all, and just boiled the existing dark ones separate...I personally could not see how that would darken anything up.

The cold steep comes out black as night and does a great job coloring your full batch. I think you will be surprised on the outcome.

 

[Stillraining]

The cold steep comes out black as night and does a great job coloring your full batch. I think you will be surprised on the outcome.

OK thanks..... but color alone is not what I'm after.

Well the beer is brewed and I will be bottling it this week end... I did the whole suggested FWH thing but now I'm regretting that...Time will tell but my gut feeling is it was the wrong move...hope I'm dead wrong about that.

Went with Chocolate malt and midnight Wheat for he first batch.

 

[Stillraining]

Yep definitely made a huge mistake doing the whole FWH routine...I will be flushing that technique out of my bags of tricks that's for sure. Hopefully time will de-bitter it and once the dark malts mellow and blend that helps round it out too.... The roast character is not fully developed yet as this is still young beer being one week in bottles but you get a hint that its coming..you can smell it but cant taste it as its lost in the bitter.... but by then I'm sure most all the hop aroma will be long gone as well.

So I'm one giant step backwards down the road to the perfect BIPA ( for me) at least from where I was at originally that is. Too bad too... I have 11 gallons of this stuff....................But It is Black!..

Next up same exact beer recipe except moving to 20 min only bittering addition for one half the split batch and 10 min only bittering addition for the second half . Yep I am splitting it this time.

FWIW this was 70 IBU, 1/2 of which came from FWH......Bottom line if you have a 60 min boil addition then go ahead and try the FWH thing it may benefit you...but if your first bittering is much less then that, and certainly if down around the 30 min mark, then don't move any of it to FWH if you want LESS bittering. It only makes sense when you think about it no mater what all the hoop-la is surrounding the practice currently. And why I was regretting it even before I sampled it........And I was right.

 

[jjeffers09]

Holy bitter beer face. You put 70 IBUs in at FWH?? I have not gone higher than 48 FWH, but I am far from a hop head. Just a ? at what stage is the beer in when you tasted it? If it was a OG reading Id give it time you might be surprised. Maybe not with 70IBU of pure bittering...

 

[Stillraining]

Holy bitter beer face. You put 70 IBUs in at FWH?? I have not gone higher than 48 FWH, but I am far from a hop head. Just a ? at what stage is the beer in when you tasted it? If it was a OG reading Id give it time you might be surprised. Maybe not with 70IBU of pure bittering...

LOL..No man, Half of the total 70 IBU's in this beer was from FWH... 33 to be exact..:fro:

Sample today was one week in bottle, after 3 weeks fermentation/conditioning/dry hopping...Ya I know its early, but I brew a lot of beer and this one is and will remain way to bitter for me. Like I alluded to, it might be drinkable in 4 months once the dark malts take over ....but it wont be much of an IPA by then...

NEXT!...LOL

I'm not saying its bad...I'm just less of a hop head then even you are I can probably wager......Come on over, Ill fill your trunk..lol

 

[Stillraining]

Update for those interested, I brewed this again using Nelson Sauvin Hops exclusively and it was a total failure. Worst IPA I have ever brewed.. Even kegged it this time so I could play with additional keg hopping.
Not sure Steve at Dirty Bucket is being honest here. I'm not convinced anyway... as I did not get anywhere even close to the aromas and flavors of theirs with this hop, or of my original that was almost spot on to theirs to begin with.