BIAB with tap water

[hout17]

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB. Not that you can't brew great beer in BIAB. If we start with the premise that one enters BIAB knowing that without some modifications, we are simplifying the process that might sacrifice some of the finer details in brewing but yet still being able to brew a very good beer.

You are simply talking about another all grain technique to brew beer it has nothing to with if it's better or not than fly sparging let's say.

I'm sure @Bobby_M will chime in on this as there are some award winning brewer's that use BIAB.

If you enjoy the hobby and your beer you make then don't worry about it. That is the bottom line you can go as technical or as simple as you want and still make decent beer even great beer if the style works with your water particularly well.

I brew with tap water but I get a water report from Wards labs every so often to adjust my water profile with brewing salts and check my pH during the mash. I do this because it's fun to me and enjoyable.

I also use glass carboys with straps still and a bottling bucket and bottle half as much as I keg.

Have fun enjoy the hobby and have a homebrew!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Ideas for measuring water quality on brew day:

• Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)
• Brewing with unfiltered tap water advice

FWIW, I haven't used these ideas (yet), but I am gathering up ideas for possibily switching from 'no mineral' water to tap water of a known mineral content.

TL/DR: Ignore the municipal report.

 

[doug293cz]

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB.

Me for one. I don't enter a lot of competitions, but I brew exclusively with BIAB, and have taken first. BIAB is All Grain Brewing, and is just an alternate way of separating the grain from the wort (removing the grain from the wort, rather than removing the wort from the grain - that's it.)

I use tap water, but I am also blessed with rain/snowpack run-off water, that has low mineral content, low alkalinity, and is consistent year round. I do add minerals and acid or base (depending on recipe), and treat with metabisulfite to eliminate chlorine.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

This is a BIAB thread.

It only happens to be in the BIAB subforum but I would argue this specific discussion, as posed by the OP, has nothing to do with BIAB (Sorry Joe). As has been argued many times, BIAB doesn't have special water considerations outside of any other all grain brewing process.

I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB.

In the table of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th NJ homebrewers of the year, all three of them brew BIAB and I know because I built their systems.

IMO, it all starts with knowing what is coming out of your tap. Without that information, all discussion are anecdotal and not much use to the brewer seeking knowledge.

Agree. The problem with it is that even if you test, many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

 

[Bobby_M]

I suppose this might go in the “it depends” category also. One can care deeply about mineral profiles and pH but still use municipal water if the water is right.

I live in an area that has very low mineral content, mountain water runoff in the municipal water supply (Sierra Foothills east of Sacramento). It is all rain water and snow melt. There is little seasonal change in the water and every local brewery I have asked uses tap water and makes adjustments depending on the beer style. There is a production scale sake maker in Folsom that chose the location because of the water.

Of course not everyone lives in the Land of Sky Blue Waters or can say It’s The Water.

I was trying not to generalize too far outside the OP's statement that he doesn't have a tap water report or test. It would be amazing, and simple, if we all had nearly distilled water flowing out of our taps.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

... and if one suspects their tap water may have multiple profiles, see #62, #65, #71, & #74 in Brewing with unfiltered tap water advice for some ideas on how one might detect / adjust to this situation.

 

[NSMikeD]

It only happens to be in the BIAB subforum but I would argue this specific discussion, as posed by the OP, has nothing to do with BIAB (Sorry Joe). As has been argued many times, BIAB doesn't have special water considerations outside of any other all grain brewing process.

In the table of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th NJ homebrewers of the year, all three of them brew BIAB and I know because I built their systems.


Agree. The problem with it is that even if you test, many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

With municipal water does drawing from different sources equally materially different water chemistry. I can’t speak for other municipalities but my water company tests regularly and posts the ranges and published annually. The numbers are very steady and for the key items the range for my purposes are narrow enough I use the midpoints. I am sure there are places where the wells and aquifers are from sources that have differing geology. The county in which I live draws from the Lloyd Aquifer which is a massive source under the northeast so that the water is nearly identical from district to district and year to year. I only know this because I read check the reports and update my software. Otherwise I would use my rodi filtration system to brew.

As for chlorine, which vis-a-vis chloramine are materially different for a home brewer since chlorine dissipates in minutes when the water is heated while chloramine requires a long boil to remove.


My apologies to the expert BIAB brewers. I should have added that in context to asking if one can use tap water suggested a beginner level of experience that corresponded with BIAB as a popular method for entry into all grain because of its simplicity and less hardware requirements. I didn’t mean to imply that the style of brewing could not be sophisticated and exacting. My bad for a lazy generalization

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm sure @Bobby_M will chime in on this as there are some award winning brewer's that use BIAB.

The two time NJ homebrewer of the year is eBIAB for sure but I do have some other interesting data. My club "Garden State Homebrewers" are 3-time (consecutive) NJ club of the year based on total points in competition. We took a survey and here are some takeaways.

Note that the medal count here excludes the last major competition of our season because it happened after the survey. I filtered out anyone that didn't compete or didn't medal.

Maybe a more impressive figure is just how many of the weighted points were split between system designs.

 

[MrClint]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Some of these seem a bit like the blue ribbon for best hog at the county fair. How mediocre were the other hogs? What do these kinds of medals actually validate?

Competitions are a way for brewers to get their beer evaluated by trained judges according to detailed quality criteria. In general brewers who do well in competitions can be assumed to make better beer than those who do not do well in competitions. In sanctioned competitions, the judges are blind to who brewed the beers they are judging, so favoritism does not come in to play. Judging isn't perfect by any means, but on average it gets things right. Do you have any suggestions for better ways to determine who makes good beer and who doesn't (if you do it would be better discussed in a thread of its own, as an extended discussion here would be off topic.)

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

Those are all examples of masterfully brewed beers with consistency across millions of barrels but that's besides the point. BJCP competitions are the only way we have to compare similar beers against each other across different brewers. You have an extreme blind spot in this regard but if you have any interest in understanding, there are tons of discussions about BJCP and the validity of those competitions.


Your comment seems to miss the point that this guy right here is a MONSTER brewer just on this data alone. The two relevant regional competitions had entry limits of 3 and 5 respectively and it also included the national competition which he entered two in. So out of only 10 entries, he picked up 3 golds and 2 silvers. In both of those competitions, one of the golds won first place best of show. One of those silvers was at the NHC for a German Pilsners so it was the second best German Pils out of 146 entries.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

... Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

Comment of the week right there, and nobody even noticed!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I use only tap water for brewing, My Cl, So4 and Ca levels are all in the 20-30ppm range except Na wich is about 50-55.
But I brew mostly British ales with a British approach to water so I adjust most of those up a lot.
We get our municipal water from a deep ground water aquifier, and I get a yearly report from the county water administration, showing the average during the year, as you might expect the deviances year to year are very small.
De chlorination I have never bothered about since tap water here is never chlorinated.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This appears to be one of those "scorched earth" type of discussions that I see on just about every Internet message board. [...]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all.

Competitive people like competitions.

There are brewers here who are continuously striving to make the next beer the best beer. When that effort is focused on a particular style (or ingredient or process step), the results are a joy to read.

Many brewers here are short on time and looking for ideas to brew good beer quicker. They're not 'in it to win it'.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I should have added that in context to asking if one can use tap water suggested a beginner level of experience that corresponded with BIAB as a popular method for entry into all grain because of its simplicity and less hardware requirements.

Speed Brewing (2015) does most of this for 1.75 gal batches.

---

It may be that most people have "low enough mineral" water and can brew reasonable hazies and pastries using their tap water [1] [2].

But if a batch 'fails', and water mineral content is unknown, a reasonable next step is to understand water mineral content [2].

Water is local - and local brewers would be a good source of techniques to enhance water quality.

---

[1] always remove chlorine and chloramines
[2] don't overlook the possibility of seasonal mineral content

 

[MrClint]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

 

[Bobby_M]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

Ah, the thread is slipping into the "you care too much, I care just the right amount" phase. The one thing that formal BJCP competitions offers to this particular discussion is a VAGUE measure of wide-geographic objectivism where none could otherwise exist. Someone who consistently catches gold medals and best of shows in a large field of competitors objectively grasps at least most of the important brewing techniques at a pretty high level.

An important counterpoint is that it does not denigrate people who don't compete. It does not invalidate all the beer made with no regard to stylistic accuracy.

 

[hout17]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

That's your view some people approach the hobby in different ways. Ways they enjoy doing the hobby. There is nothing wrong with that just like there's nothing wrong with mashing some grains and making beer without worrying about anything else.

The information is there if one decides to pursue a different avenue or go the more technical route and this is a good thing but if you don't want to do it then don't it's up to each person to decide how they want to approach this hobby.

 

[Willammes Macena]

O que era simples saber quem usa água da torneira ou não, virou algo para saber quem ganha mais fita azul ou medalha...... rsrsrs

Nada muito diferente na terra da Banana

What was simple to know who uses tap water or not, became something to know who wins more blue ribbon or medal...... lol

Nothing much different in the land of Banana

 

[mac_1103]

An important counterpoint is that it does not denigrate people who don't compete. It does not invalidate all the beer made with no regard to stylistic accuracy.

Yeah, not exactly sure why this should need to be said, but thanks for saying it.

And having now read quite a bit on this topic and taken another look at my local water authority's annual report with fresh eyes, it becomes clear that I am among the lucky ones who have tap water that is pretty good for brewing some decent beer. Chlorine not chloramine, low hardness and alkalinity, consistent values within narrow ranges, etc. Again, I don't have to worry about mine too much but lots of other people clearly do have to worry about theirs.

 

[MrClint]

The thread is about BIAB and brewing with tap water (or not), it then slipped into brewing beer that appeals to a panel of judges instead of your own tastes, preferences and joy of the hobby. My only nit here is that any input, expense or level of effort can be justified if the goal is to win a medal.

I was going to say that this isn't some kind of a priesthood or something, but dang those monks went and shattered that illusion. They brewed for a higher purpose than medals I suppose. So yeah, there's room for turning this hobby into a vocation, competition and religion. As said previously, you do you.

 

[mac_1103]

FWIW, most monks aren't priests.

 

[Broken Crow]

The thread is about BIAB and brewing with tap water (or not), it then slipped into brewing beer that appeals to a panel of judges instead of your own tastes, preferences and joy of the hobby. My only nit here is that any input, expense or level of effort can be justified if the goal is to win a medal.

I was going to say that this isn't some kind of a priesthood or something, but dang those monks went and shattered that illusion. They brewed for a higher purpose than medals I suppose. So yeah, there's room for turning this hobby into a vocation, competition and religion. As said previously, you do you.

https://thechurchofbeer.com/

 

[Bobby_M]

The thread is about BIAB and brewing with tap water (or not), it then slipped into brewing beer that appeals to a panel of judges instead of your own tastes, preferences and joy of the hobby. My only nit here is that any input, expense or level of effort can be justified if the goal is to win a medal.

I was going to say that this isn't some kind of a priesthood or something, but dang those monks went and shattered that illusion. They brewed for a higher purpose than medals I suppose. So yeah, there's room for turning this hobby into a vocation, competition and religion. As said previously, you do you.

It's disingenuous ignore the evolution of the conversation. Of course my post about brewing prowess being partially exhibited by competition success would be insane if it were in post number two.

I'm not saying the only measure of "good beer" is winning competitions. I keep saying that, but I don't think you're hearing it. Here's the unbelievable thing apparently; you can brew a really good beer that wins a competition AND that you personally find very satisfying to drink. Why does it have to be mutually exclusive?

I'll be ultra clear one more time.

Most beer isn't put into competitions.
Most beer is on a spectrum of terrible to amazing, depending on who you ask.
Most beer that gets gold medals in BJCP competitions are objectively good to excellent.
Most brewers who win those medals on a consistent basis know EXACTLY what water is going into their beer.


Can you brew amazing world-class beer with tap water if you have no idea what's in it? YES. BUT.

Not if your tap water is extremely soft or extremely hard and you're brewing the wrong style for that extreme.
Not all styles across the board.
Not if you want the beer to be the absolute best beer it can be, as determined by whatever metric you see fit.

 

[NSMikeD]

let me see for I can get this thread back on track since it was my fault it got derailed. I made a comment is haste that didn't properly reflect what I intended about BIAB. As a BIAB and eBIAB brewer I certainly know that you can make very good beer with simple equipment and methods. And that you can be very precise and with many additional points of detail and additionally equipment. Thus my off the cuff comment about BIAB and award winning beer competition beer. What I really many was referring to newer homebrewers and using BIAB and an easy step into the world of all grain brewing. And for most of us at that stage (or were at the stage), the flood of information, additional hardware and science gained over the years by brewers can condensed into a could of pages of posts can be overwhelming.

@Bobby_M nailed the answer: YES, BUT

Without knowing what's coming out of your tap, it's a guessing game.

I forgot who first mention getting a filtration system, but stripping your water to 0 TDS and then mixing in the additions is certainly an effective way of ensuring you have desired water and less expensive in the long run that buying water.

Chlorine v choramine are different and camped and goo filtration systems will remove them, but chorine is more easily removed early in the brewing process and less of a concern if one wants to by pass the just mention options.

I hope the OP's question was answered, and the additional posts inspire further understanding of water chemistry in homebrewing.

And thanks to the folks who called out my post. The off ramp of this thread was educational.

 

[BeerAndTele]

Summary: distilled/RO water + adjustments. All. Day. Long. Be mindful of your pH and adjust to taste ... ... ... unless you'd rather not, which is fine.

As for the more controversial issue:

On guitar boards we have the tone wood topic ...

There is no audible difference between a maple fingerboard and a rosewood fingerboard. Play what feels good under your fingers.

Cheers ... and rock on.

 

[Airborneguy]

Does RO water have a set PH or does it still fluctuate by source?

 

[AlexKay]

Does RO water have a set PH or does it still fluctuate by source?

RO water has no acid- or base-active components, so its pH changes practically whenever you look at it. Add something slightly acidic and the pH will plummet down to 4 or 5 or something; add something slightly basic and you'll be at 9 or 10.

All things being equal, dissolved CO2 in RO will probably give it a pH between 5 and 6, but look at it sternly and it'll go back up.

 

[doug293cz]

Does RO water have a set PH or does it still fluctuate by source?

Water pH is pretty much irrelevant. It is the alkalinity of the water that matters, as alkalinity is what affects the mash pH. Buffering power is what determines how easy it is to shift the pH up or down by addition of other ions/compounds. Buffering power is determined mostly by the alkalinity of the water. You could have water from two different sources, both with pH of say 7.5, but one is low alkalinity, and the other high alkalinity. When mashing the same grain bill, the low alkalinity water might result in a mash pH of 5.6, with the high alkalinity water giving a mash pH of 6.2 (too high.) Alkalinity vs. pH of the starting water seems to be a difficult concept to understand for those new to dealing with water chemistry and mash pH (based on the many questions on HBT about water pH.)

As @AlexKay said, RO water has close to zero alkalinity, and zero buffering power, so adding anything to it will shift the pH wildly.

Brew on

 

[mac_1103]

Alkalinity vs. pH of the starting water seems to be a difficult concept to understand for those new to dealing with water chemistry and mash pH

Maybe that's because we all learned a rather different definition of "alkalinity" in high school. Specifically, alkaline means basic means high pH. I certainly understand why it is used to denote buffering power in water chemistry, but it's not exactly intuitive.

 

[doug293cz]

Maybe that's because we all learned a rather different definition of "alkalinity" in high school. Specifically, alkaline means basic means high pH. I certainly understand why it is used to denote buffering power in water chemistry, but it's not exactly intuitive.

Definitely not intuitive. And coming to grips with "mash pH is very important, but water pH doesn't matter" can be difficult due to cognitive dissonance.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Maybe that's because we all learned a rather different definition of "alkalinity" in high school. Specifically, alkaline means basic means high pH. I certainly understand why it is used to denote buffering power in water chemistry, but it's not exactly intuitive.

Right! The first search defined the difference as :

"An alkaline solution simply means it has a pH greater than 7. Alkalinity, on the other hand, refers to a solution's quantitative ability to neutralize an acid. Therefore, you can have water with high (alkaline) pH and low alkalinity, or high alkalinity and low pH."

On the other hand, both Acid and Acidity mean the same thing so it sure seems natural to think Alkaline and Alkalinity would also.

 

[davidhenrymercer]

Anyone brewing with straight tap water with success, no adjustments other than maybe a campden tablet?

I brewed with tap water for years outside with a cooler and pot before moving inside with the Anvil 2 years ago.

No adjustments to water (local water report is incomplete for brewing purposes.) I just got lazy and never tested it.

The first two beers I brewed on the Anvil came out way too bitter (A NEIPA I screwed up with bad Galaxy hops, and a Janet's Brown Ale.)

I switched to Poland Spring for a batch or 2 then started then switched to distilled.

Since then, I have modifying water with calculations provided by Brewfather. (mash water only)

Since switching to distilled, beers have all been fine, but no real difference that I can tell, from when I use to brew the old way outside (well, maybe the hoppier beers got better.)


Anyone have feedback?

TY

We live in Olympia, WA, where there are several artesian wells scattered throughout the vicinity. We're fortunate to share the same source used for now-defunct Olympia Brewing. Analysis shows almost pure water, requiring very little adjustment. We add gypsum and salts in small amounts because it's on the soft side, but very little else. Seems compatible with every recipe we've tried. This should be a home and craft brew mecca, but it's not.

 

[RM-MN]

This should be a home and craft brew mecca, but it's not.

While it can be quite easy to adjust pure water to the mineral content needed to make quality beers, not every hombrewer is aware of how easy it can be. Once they have failed a few times they tend to give up rather than reaching out to find the solution.