BIAB and sparging

[kkuczma]

Well, let's chalk this up to inexperience and not doing the right research. I used BIAB for a 5 gallon Vienna Lager I'm brewing today. All the kits I've previously brewed were 1 gallon all-grain kits. I sparged with the grains in a colander; when I was introduced to BIAB on a couple 1-gallon kits, I was able to still use the colander.

I did not anticipate the grain bag being too big/my colander being too small to work together and it was obvious right away there was no way I'd be able to pour the sparge water over it evenly without it becoming blocked quickly and pouring off the sides.

A quick google search revealed that you're supposed to be able to bypass sparging, effectively, via the BIAB process, and that what I had been doing previously by pouring the hot water over the bag, was not standard practice.

In short, I'm batch sparging with the bag sitting in the mash tun. What kind of trouble am I going to run into here? I'm actively in the process of doing the batch sparging, so please join me in live, panicked updates. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[RM-MN]

Set the bag of grain into your bucket fermenter, pour the water over it in there, then after removing the grain, dump the bucket back into the boil pot.

 

[hotbeer]

If you undersized everything, then just drop back an punt.

Anything is acceptable. Instead of 5 gallons, then take whatever you can get out of it.

Open the bag and split your grain into other smaller bags or wrap in a kitchen towel or a section of old clean bedsheet (maybe that can be your name for it).

Or just rinse the grain in a strainer and not worry about the bag at all.

Whatever gets you the wort volume you want. You are going to boil it anyway, so ultra sanitized isn't a big issue unless you aren't going to boil immediately.

 

[soccerdad]

+1 to RM-MN suggestion

 

[kkuczma]

Thanks everyone. So far, this has been something close to disastrous in terms of the process, so if I get anything decent out of this to drink, I'll be happy. Good stories for the future when I've got a better handle on things, right?

 

[rburrelli]

You did not do anything overly wrong. You simply added a sparge. So unless your volumes and gravity were way off. No harm. You CAN BIAB and still sparge.

 

[marc1]

I do 10 gallon batches and sparge by using a hoist to move the grain bag to a second pot with the sparge water in it. Stir it up good, let it sit a few minutes, and hoist it back out again.

 

[InspectorJon]

I always sparge my BIAB grain. In my case I have a bit of a different motive. I do the standard full volume BIAB process. When I’m done with squeezing the bag I put it in a large bucket with a half gallon or so of hot water, get it mixed pretty well, cover and let it sit until I’m done boiling.

When the boil is done and the main wort is cooling I drain the bag that is sparging and collect some weaker wort, second runnings if you will want, to make my next starter. Sometimes I need to boil it down a bit to get to starter gravity. Sometimes it’s good to go. I freeze it in plastic water bottles. I boil to sanitize on the day I want to make starter. It’s a little bit of work but it’s free starter wort and boosts my overall grain use efficiency

 

[The Mad Brewer]

My trouble is Im getting too old to lift a 12-15 lb of dry grain in a bag and not sure what it is when its wet but Im trying to come up with a method of lifting it out to drain. If its nice out side I might be able to rig up a Tripod, but when its cold and Im inside its not practical. Unless I get my dream kitchen in the basement for caning, preserving and brewing setup. Then I can find some rigging I can do over a Sink with a hoist of sorts hanging from the rafters. So I like the idea of breaking it up into smaller batches using my big strainer. I will be brewing a Wheat in a few weeks and Im going to try it.
Also my current method going between the Mash Pot to a Giant bucket and trying to get it to drain, is a mess.

 

[soccerdad]

I do 3 gallon batches when I brew indoors. Not too heavy.

 

[RM-MN]

My trouble is Im getting too old to lift a 12-15 lb of dry grain in a bag and not sure what it is when its wet but Im trying to come up with a method of lifting it out to drain. If its nice out side I might be able to rig up a Tripod, but when its cold and Im inside its not practical. Unless I get my dream kitchen in the basement for caning, preserving and brewing setup. Then I can find some rigging I can do over a Sink with a hoist of sorts hanging from the rafters. So I like the idea of breaking it up into smaller batches using my big strainer. I will be brewing a Wheat in a few weeks and Im going to try it.
Also my current method going between the Mash Pot to a Giant bucket and trying to get it to drain, is a mess.

Two suggestions
1. Brew smaller batches. I usually use 5 or 6 pounds of grain and end up with 3 1/2 to 4 gallons into the fermenter.
2. Mill finer. Much finer. Your efficiency will go up so you don't need as much grain. Sparge to gain the extra efficiency too.

 

[The Mad Brewer]

Two suggestions
1. Brew smaller batches. I usually use 5 or 6 pounds of grain and end up with 3 1/2 to 4 gallons into the fermenter.
2. Mill finer. Much finer. Your efficiency will go up so you don't need as much grain. Sparge to gain the extra efficiency too.

Dont you get more sediment when its finer?

 

[dwhite60]

Dont you get more sediment when its finer?

Not that I've really noticed. Finer is better efficiency though. It's worth doing.

 

[madscientist451]

I've downsized to 3 gallon batches and do "dunk sparge" in a smaller pot. Sometimes, I run a 5 gallon batch and use two bags, its just way easier to deal with. Many brewers skip the sparge with BIAB, but I find I consistently hit my numbers if I do a dunk sparge.

 

[Beermeister32]

I use what I call DBIAB - Double Brew in a Bag - make it easy on yourself. Use two bags, I have a stainless rod that goes over the top to clip the bags to.

Super easy, easy to remove grains, half the weight. No hoist needed.

 

[leedspointbrew]

I use what I call DBIAB - Double Brew in a Bag - make it easy on yourself. Use two bags, I have a stainless rod that goes over the top to clip the bags to.

Super easy, easy to remove grains, half the weight. No hoist needed.
View attachment 764868

Clever.

 

[rock_n_herm]

I always sparge my BIAB grain. In my case I have a bit of a different motive. I do the standard full volume BIAB process. When I’m done with squeezing the bag I put it in a large bucket with a half gallon or so of hot water, get it mixed pretty well, cover and let it sit until I’m done boiling.

When the boil is done and the main wort is cooling I drain the bag that is sparging and collect some weaker wort, second runnings if you will want, to make my next starter. Sometimes I need to boil it down a bit to get to starter gravity. Sometimes it’s good to go. I freeze it in plastic water bottles. I boil to sanitize on the day I want to make starter. It’s a little bit of work but it’s free starter wort and boosts my overall grain use efficiency

Thanks for sharing this. I have been looking for a way to make starters that does not involve hydrophilic, mess making DME. It is also cool that you are multipurposing a single batch of grain. Win win.

 

[skidmark]

My trouble is Im getting too old to lift a 12-15 lb of dry grain in a bag and not sure what it is when its wet but Im trying to come up with a method of lifting it out to drain.

I have one of these hoists from Hobo Freight to lift that wet sack from the pot. I have it suspended from a length of 1x4 on-edge set on the open doors of the upper cabinets. Makes brew day much less tiring.

Gambrel and Pulley Hoist

Amazing deals on this Gambrel And Pulley Hoist at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[The Mad Brewer]

I use what I call DBIAB - Double Brew in a Bag - make it easy on yourself. Use two bags, I have a stainless rod that goes over the top to clip the bags to.

Super easy, easy to remove grains, half the weight. No hoist needed.
View attachment 764868

where did you get the separator rod? How big is your pot? Diameter?

 

[Beermeister32]

I bought a piece of 1/8” stainless welding rod when I was getting my CO2 cylinder filled at the welding shop.

If you have a bench vise and a hammer, you can bend it so there is a slight overhang on the ends. This fits my 15” kettle nicely.

 

[LostHopper]

Dont you get more sediment when its finer?

maybe but it never shows up in the final beer.

 

[rock_n_herm]

I bought a piece of 1/8” stainless welding rod when I was getting my CO2 cylinder filled at the welding shop.

If you have a bench vise and a hammer, you can bend it so there is a slight overhang on the ends. This fits my 15” kettle nicely.
View attachment 765074

Do you apply heat during the mash? I’m thinking you must, as with that in place, you can’t put a lid on your kettle.

 

[Beermeister32]

I put the lid on and a few insulating towels over the top to maintain temps. Sometimes I bungie cord the towels around the kettle too.

You may need to periodically add some heat to the mash. I had to do that anyway before using the dual bag setup, so no real difference in my experience. I put the kettle lid cooling notch over one end of the rods.

 

[The Mad Brewer]

Not that I've really noticed. Finer is better efficiency though. It's worth doing.

I just got a Cereal Killer grain mill, but it doesn't go fine like my blender does, my blender makes it like flour, is that too fine?

 

[marc1]

I just got a Cereal Killer grain mill, but it doesn't go fine like my blender does, my blender makes it like flour, is that too fine?

You don't need to go to flour. I have a cereal killer and use it at about the tightest mill gap for BIAB and it works great.

 

[Stormcrow]

I use what I call DBIAB - Double Brew in a Bag - make it easy on yourself. Use two bags, I have a stainless rod that goes over the top to clip the bags to.

Super easy, easy to remove grains, half the weight. No hoist needed.
View attachment 764868

The "meister" in your handle is not hyperbole. The two bag thing is brilliant.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I just got a Cereal Killer grain mill, but it doesn't go fine like my blender does, my blender makes it like flour, is that too fine?

You definitely do not want flour. Just run the grain through your mill twice.

 

[RM-MN]

I just got a Cereal Killer grain mill, but it doesn't go fine like my blender does, my blender makes it like flour, is that too fine?

If the flour you produce by using a blender doesn't clog up the pores in the bag, it isn't too fine. the finer you can mill the grain, the faster and more complete the conversion. The downside is that the conversion is so fast that you lose the control of the fermenability. The work around for this is to use caramel malts to adjust fermentability.

 

[RWurster]

The downside is that the conversion is so fast that you lose the control of the fermenability. The work around for this is to use caramel malts to adjust fermentability.

I grind my grains into about how cornmeal comes packaged and brew it in a bag. I am new, what do you mean you lose control of the fermentability?

 

[RM-MN]

I grind my grains into about how cornmeal comes packaged and brew it in a bag. I am new, what do you mean you lose control of the fermentability?

With a conventional mash tun, you need the grains crushed but not too crushed or you get a stuck mash because you would depend on the crushed grains and their intact hulls to form the filter. With that coarser crush, the beta amylase can be denatured during the slower conversion during the mash which then leaves the alpha amylase enzyme that creates more dextrines. It takes some time at normal mash temperatures to denature the beta enzyme and that happens faster at the higher mash temps so you can vary the fermentability of the wort by varying the mash temp, low temp to preserve the beta amylase as long as possible to get a very fermentable wort, higher for a beer with more body.

When you take advantage of the ability of BIAB to deal with very finely milled grains you can get a very high mash efficiency but since the grain particles are so small they gelatinize nearly immediately and the enzymes are able to access all or nearly all the starches right away. Conversion of starches to sugars is very quick and is completed before any of the enzymes can be denatured. I've tried mashing at 152 and at 158 and get the same final gravity from both.

To work around that, I let someone else affect the fermentability of the wort by incorporating some caramel malt. I can just add body with carapils or add sweetness with caramel 10 or 20. It gets me the same effect without losing mash efficiency.

 

[RWurster]

Thanks for the answer, that makes sense.

 

[Iowayankees]

I use a BIAB with my brewzilla- had seen someone along the way use a 4 way rod to hook on to the cinch so that there is room to sparge. Anyone have seen this and can share ideas to build or buy this addition?

 

[RocketBrewer]

I use a BIAB with my brewzilla- had seen someone along the way use a 4 way rod to hook on to the cinch so that there is room to sparge. Anyone have seen this and can share ideas to build or buy this addition?

I have a couple extras I built that I was planning to sell. If you're interested, shoot me a PM

 

[Alan Reginato]

With a conventional mash tun, you need the grains crushed but not too crushed or you get a stuck mash because you would depend on the crushed grains and their intact hulls to form the filter. With that coarser crush, the beta amylase can be denatured during the slower conversion during the mash which then leaves the alpha amylase enzyme that creates more dextrines. It takes some time at normal mash temperatures to denature the beta enzyme and that happens faster at the higher mash temps so you can vary the fermentability of the wort by varying the mash temp, low temp to preserve the beta amylase as long as possible to get a very fermentable wort, higher for a beer with more body.

When you take advantage of the ability of BIAB to deal with very finely milled grains you can get a very high mash efficiency but since the grain particles are so small they gelatinize nearly immediately and the enzymes are able to access all or nearly all the starches right away. Conversion of starches to sugars is very quick and is completed before any of the enzymes can be denatured. I've tried mashing at 152 and at 158 and get the same final gravity from both.

To work around that, I let someone else affect the fermentability of the wort by incorporating some caramel malt. I can just add body with carapils or add sweetness with caramel 10 or 20. It gets me the same effect without losing mash efficiency.

How much time, for these temperatures?

How much mash efficiency?


Thanks, in advance!

 

[RM-MN]

How much time, for these temperatures?

How much mash efficiency?


Thanks, in advance!

I don't recommend less than 30 minutes for the mash although I have found that the conversion happens long before that time. The problem with going shorter time than that is it takes time to extract the flavor. If you want flavorless beer, do an extremely short mash with the grains milled to near flour.

Mash efficiency is directly related to the quality of the milling plus the mash time. I expect near 100% mash efficiency. As the milling of the grain gets coarser, it takes more time to approach the 100% mash efficiency until you finally get coarse enough that you cannot get there.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't recommend less than 30 minutes for the mash although I have found that the conversion happens long before that time. The problem with going shorter time than that is it takes time to extract the flavor. If you want flavorless beer, do an extremely short mash with the grains milled to near flour.

Mash efficiency is directly related to the quality of the milling plus the mash time. I expect near 100% mash efficiency. As the milling of the grain gets coarser, it takes more time to approach the 100% mash efficiency until you finally get coarse enough that you cannot get there.

It would be better if you used the word "conversion" efficiency above. Conversion efficiency is a measure of the percentage of starch that gets converted to sugar, and that's what you are talking about.

Mash efficiency is usually used to mean the percentage of potential sugar that makes it into the boil kettle. The brewing software I am familiar with uses this definition for mash efficiency. Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. Lauter efficiency is the percentage of the sugar created by conversion in the mash that makes it into the boil kettle. It is equal to 1 (or 100%) minus the amount of sugar that remains in the spent grains after draining, and optionally sparging. The less sugar remaining in the grain, the higher the lauter efficiency.

Brew on

 

[The Mad Brewer]

Used my cereal grain killer today for the 1st time, other than having to tighten a few things up, it was nice to be able to do it over a bucket and keep the mess outside and I'm very pleased with the result

 

[The Mad Brewer]

I bought a piece of 1/8” stainless welding rod when I was getting my CO2 cylinder filled at the welding shop.

If you have a bench vise and a hammer, you can bend it so there is a slight overhang on the ends. This fits my 15” kettle nicely.
View attachment 765074

Bought a rod that I will bend in the shape like you did and try it out this weekend thank you for the tip

 

[The Mad Brewer]

I use what I call DBIAB - Double Brew in a Bag - make it easy on yourself. Use two bags, I have a stainless rod that goes over the top to clip the bags to.

Super easy, easy to remove grains, half the weight. No hoist needed.
View attachment 764868

Worked great much easier really helped keep the mess down, Thanks again

 

[LitBrewing]

I ran into basically the same problem as the OP today. I have a 14g pot, but I am wanting to make 9.5g of beer, so the water+grain is too much for my 14g to hold if I don't add water.

I used an old refigerator grate that rests on top of the kettle after pulling the grains out, I set it on that, works fairly well but the wet grains tend to not want to sit there, and when trying to pour hot water over the grains to rinse it gets all over the place. Today ended up spilling some grains into the kettle, and spilling water/drained wort all over. What a mess! I used a clean bag to just filter out the grains for the wort, so I believe it should be fine.
\
Instead of about 12 preboil i ended up with about 9g, just made sure to match the pre-boil gravity I was aiming. We shall see how the end results turns out!
I thought about trying to us a bucket, but they aren't really wide enough to fit 20+ lbs of grain.

I guess I need to maybe get a super wide mouthed container, and rinse in there.

Anyone have ideas for something larger than a standard bucket size to sparge in that isn't too expensive?