BH Efficiency Question.

[Bigarcherynut]

Been brewing BIAB for about 6 years. Took a year off to get an understanding of water quality and to design my own software for the unique E-Kettle I built. Thanks to two software designers on HomeBrewTalk.com for their help. I now really have a system and program that has been working great.

I love stouts, porters and lately brewing bourbon stout. This spring I wanted to brew a beer that was a good summer beer. Something light but yet have some body better than the Bud, Coors, Miller and Bush Lights. Well after tying many suggested flavors settled in on a Cream Ale.

Well my first recipe was spot on for what I wanted and I have brewed 4 batches. The first two were 5 gallon batches. They both came in at 83% BH efficiency which is where most of my beers come in at. I decided to increase my batch to a 10 gallon batch and although it was the same taste, my efficiency dropped to 75 %. Not bad but puzzling. This week I brewed another 10 gallon batch and even increased my base malt by 2 pounds and adjusted my water accordingly. My efficiency dropped to 66%. I mill my grains at the LHBS and they told me a few years ago the mill is set at a credit card gap. I have always double milled my grain and have had good results. I know over the years the finer the mill the better for BIAB. Unless they changed their setting something has changed. These are the first two 10 gallon batches I have brewed. I know some may feel if the beer is good don't worry, but I'm working hard for consistency and for some reason that has changed.

Here are some specifics on my system and last process.

I'm using a 20 gallon old portable whirlpool tub that is 25" x 13" x 15" deep so it's an oval for my E-kettle.

I have extremely hard water so I have a RO Filter and normally use 80 to 90% RO water and top off with my well water. I use Bru'n Water for finding a profile along with Beer Smith and my software program.

I stir every 15 minutes or so and recirculate.
My mash thickness is 2.6 Qts./Lb.
My grain bill was 21.5 lbs.
Target pH was 5.5 but was low and adjusted up to 5.3 at 15 minutes in.
Mash temp was 153 and with my system maintain that the entire 60 minutes.
I use two boards and squeeze clamps to squeeze the bag and have great success with adding a few gravity points and wort back into the kettle.
Boil for 60 minutes and hit all my water levels and for the most part my gravity but was low on this batch. Expected OG 1.059. Mine came in at 1.052 and I mentioned earlier BH efficiency dropped to 66 % according to Beer Smith. I did double check all my entries into Beer Smith.

Not sure why my 10 gallon batches are dropping in efficiency. I included a picture of the spent grains but not sure if you can tell if it's still too coarse.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

Bill

 

[RM-MN]

I mill my grains at the LHBS and they told me a few years ago the mill is set at a credit card gap. I have always double milled my grain and have had good results. I know over the years the finer the mill the better for BIAB. Unless they changed their setting something has changed.

Has the LHBS upgraded the mill over the years? Is the results you are getting the result of a mill that is showing wear?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@Bigarcherynut What was the mash efficiency of both batches?

“Target pH was 5.5 but was low and adjusted up to 5.3 at 15 minutes in.”

Adjusting mash pH after fifteen minutes may make you feel better but it won’t do much for the batch. I think you meant to target a 5.5 pH and tried raising it from 5.3 pH.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Has the LHBS upgraded the mill over the years? Is the results you are getting the result of a mill that is showing wear?

Not sure how old or if the mill has ever been updated. I've been going there for the last two years since my other LHBS closed. The old shop would change the setting smaller for my grains. The current LHBS does not change the setting unfortunately.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

What was the mash efficiency of both batches?

“Target pH was 5.5 but was low and adjusted up to 5.3 at 15 minutes in.”

Adjusting mash pH after fifteen minutes may make you feel better but it won’t do much for the batch. I think you meant to target a 5.5 pH and tried raising the 5.3 pH.

My mash efficiencies were 79.1% for my first 10 gallon batch and was 69.3% for this batch.

What I was trying to say about my mash pH was when I took my reading at 15 minutes in it was 5.01. I added 6 grams of baking soda and checked it to find it came up to 5.3. Normally I hit my pH dead on so this was strange I missed that also.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Well I've spent a good part of my afternoon reading numerous other threads in regards to my problem. I also posted on another forum and had many ask about my LHBS and it's mill. I was lost when I saw my efficiencies drop off but now that I have read and processed some of the responses I'm thinking my grains are not being milled fine enough.

What got me here is that 2 years ago I used a different LHBS and they would set the mill to .025. When I mash, I also recirculate and back then would have to watch carefully that the space under my false bottom would run dry. I even posted along with others on this forum what may be causing this. It was contributed to the fine milled grains.

Looking back since that LHBS closed and I started going to the only other one in my city, I have not had that issue with the pump going dry in the last few brews I did. This tells me that the grind is not as fine as when my pump would run dry and my efficiencies where 85%. That caused me to think about the threads I read about people buying there own mills and seeing a drastic increases in their efficiencies. With that, I asked my wife where the old pasta machine was. I then talked her into let me clear the dust off it and convert it into a grain mill as seen on U Tube. Well I finished roughing up the rollers today and only need to build the chute and try it out.

I'm interested in seeing what I find.

Please continue to give me ideas at what else to look for.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[bracconiere]

my biggest improvement in efficiency, was slowing my sparge....but i fly sparge, maybe your clamps aren't squishing 20+lb's of grain as much? not sure how BIAB residual sugar extraction works. but probably a lot left over in your 20lb mash bill....

 

[Bigarcherynut]

my biggest improvement in efficiency, was slowing my sparge....but i fly sparge, maybe your clamps aren't squishing 20+lb's of grain as much? not sure how BIAB residual sugar extraction works. but probably a lot left over in your 20lb mash bill....

I understand what you are saying in regards to sugars left over and have thought about that with BIAB but also have read that squeezing helps with the removal. I definitely gain points and a good portion of wort squeezing with the boards. Maybe other BIAB brewers may comment on this concern.

Thanks.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I have said before...if I had to start brewing from scratch again and I had only $300 budget, I would spent $100 of that on a grain mill. It was a drastic improvement to the consistency of my sparge and my efficiency. Now I do BIAB, and I have complete control over my crush. I did all-grain for many year reliant on bags of pre-crushed, buying pre-crushed mail order, or using a mill at my local shop (though for a while the only local shop did not have a public mill). A bonus is buying bags of base grain for $1/lb and more freedom to keep uncrushed specialty grain on hand. 15 years later and my grain mill cost me less than $9 per year...much less than it has saved me each year.

 

[IslandLizard]

I agree with all of the above. ^ Definitely get your own mill, especially when BIAB, it allows you to mill very fine and enjoy 85-90% mash efficiency.

I'd incorporate a sparge after lifting and squeezing the bag. The larger the batch or grain bill the more benefit it gives. Dunk sparge into a spare vessel with a few gallons of water, then squeeze again.

 

[RM-MN]

Looking back since that LHBS closed and I started going to the only other one in my city, I have not had that issue with the pump going dry in the last few brews I did. This tells me that the grind is not as fine as when my pump would run dry and my efficiencies where 85%. That caused me to think about the threads I read about people buying there own mills and seeing a drastic increases in their efficiencies. With that, I asked my wife where the old pasta machine was. I then talked her into let me clear the dust off it and convert it into a grain mill as seen on U Tube. Well I finished roughing up the rollers today and only need to build the chute and try it out.

If you find that the pasta roller makes a difference, consider buying a mill that you can set where you want it. I bought a Corona mill for my BIAB and my efficiency with no sparge beat yours. I have since been using a double or triple sparge for volume since my pot is a bit too small for the batch size I want and that put the brewhouse efficiency through the roof.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/COKO-Man...-007-16d9128af9e522&athancid=null&athena=true

 

[bracconiere]

I understand what you are saying in regards to sugars left over and have thought about that with BIAB but also have read that squeezing helps with the removal. I definitely gain points and a good portion of wort squeezing with the boards. Maybe other BIAB brewers may comment on this concern.

Thanks.

i was just alluding to the fact that, with your 10 gal batches, and presumably, 2x grain bill. The squeezing wasn't being as effective....

 

[LittleRiver]

I understand what you are saying in regards to sugars left over and have thought about that with BIAB but also have read that squeezing helps with the removal. I definitely gain points and a good portion of wort squeezing with the boards. Maybe other BIAB brewers may comment on this concern...

If you're talking about squeezing a bag that has just been removed from the mash, then the answer is yes, you will gain a lot of wort by squeezing that bag.

If you're talking about squeezing a bag that has been allowed to fully drain by gravity, then the answer is no, that bag is not worth squeezing. You can, and you will get out a cup or so of wort, but that amount is not worth the sticky mess of squeezing.

I grind grains with a .025" mill gap. I let my bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil. I don't squeeze. I don't recirculate. In general I don't sparge, I only do that if I'm brewing a high ABV beer. My BH efficiency is in the low 80's. I can consistently hit or exceed recipe targets without modifying the recipe. The process is every bit as simple and enjoyable as it sounds, and the beer is great.

 

[bracconiere]

that bag is not worth squeezing.

but what about residule sugar on/in the grain? would something like a hybrid BIAB/batch sparge be good for this? like pull the bag let it drain some % of the boil volume then put it in fresh water again, repeat the drain, and combine the worts for the boil?

edit: would make it a two vessel op though...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I would say it is a question of how much time and effort do you want to put into the process to get more extraction, vs adding an extra lb of grain. I set my overall efficiency in BeerSmith to 73% and tweaked my grain absorption rate so that I can (usually) hit my target pre-boil volume and gravity with a combination of draining and a very light squeeze of the grain bag (sometimes not needed). I was getting in the 85% range when adding in a dunk sparge...but it was a pain to measure/treat 2 volumes of water, to heat the sparge water (maybe not needed), to do the sparge, etc.

For me the 70-75% efficiency range is a decent spot. It is high enough that I don't feel like I am wasting grain, and many commercial recipes are written for this range. I can also apply the same basic process to my stovetop 2.5 gal BIAB batches (where I would not want to be squeezing or sparging in my kitchen) and still hit the same efficiency.

 

[IslandLizard]

like pull the bag let it drain some % of the boil volume then put it in fresh water again, repeat the drain, and combine the worts for the boil?

edit: would make it a two vessel op though...

Yes, it would require another vessel.
Someone suggested an "inverse" drain method so you don't have to move a heavy, wet, dripping bag around. Drain the first wort into another vessel (spare kettle or a couple buckets), then dunk sparge in the main BIAB kettle, let drip out or squeeze, then add the saved out wort. You would be able to heat the sparge water too that way if you think it helps.

I was getting in the 85% range when adding in a dunk sparge...but it was a pain to measure/treat 2 volumes of water,

All minerals can be added to the main mash. The sparge water may only need some acid.

 

[LittleRiver]

but what about residule sugar on/in the grain?...

I don't care if there is residual sugar left in the grain. The deer can enjoy it when I dump the spent grain in the woods.

I can hit or exceed recipe targets without sparging. To add a sparge step would needlessly complicate my process, take the ABV too high above the recipe target, and result in another vessel that needs to be washed. Why would I want to do that?

If I'm brewing a big beer, say 8% ABV or above, efficiency naturally goes down some. To offset that I use this simple process that includes a sparge:

• mash with 50% of the total water
• drain the wort into a bucket, leaving the bag and grains in place
• stir in the remaining 50% of the water
• raise the bag, fire the heat for the boil, pour the bucket of wort into the kettle
• let gravity fully drain the bag into the kettle during the boil

 

[RM-MN]

All minerals can be added to the main mash. The sparge water may only need some acid.

If you use cool water for the sparge the acid isn't needed. Hot sparge can extract tannins if the pH is too high but it takes both the high temp and the high pH.

 

[bracconiere]

I don't care if there is residual sugar left in the grain.

Well now, that's not going to help the OP get their 10 gallon batches, to their 5 gallon efficiency though....

(just to get back on topic)

Well my first recipe was spot on for what I wanted and I have brewed 4 batches. The first two were 5 gallon batches. They both came in at 83% BH efficiency which is where most of my beers come in at. I decided to increase my batch to a 10 gallon batch and although it was the same taste, my efficiency dropped to 75 %. Not bad but puzzling. This week I brewed another 10 gallon batch and even increased my base malt by 2 pounds and adjusted my water accordingly. My efficiency dropped to 66%.

The difference according to BeerSmith of 83%, and 66%, is more like 5 pounds of base malt for a 6% beer at a 10 gallon batch...which would be an extra 65.7 cents a twelve pack tacked onto the price! Depending on how much the OP drinks that would be a savings from anywhere from 40 dollars a year(2 drinks a day), to 2 hundred and 40(a real man's diet, a 12 pack a day)....lol, every penny counts!

edit: for me anyway, what's the fun in making your own drugs if you're not a cheap bastard!

 

[LittleRiver]

Well now, that's not going to help the OP get their 10 gallon batches, to their 5 gallon efficiency though....(just to get back on topic)...

You missed the part where I pointed out that I know to the .001" what my mill gap setting is. In other words I have control over the grind, and it is repeatable. That alone will make the biggest difference in efficiency, to the point that sparging is not even needed for "normal" ABV beers. That's definitely on topic for someone looking to improve their efficiency.

Adding sparge steps or adding additional grain are bandaid solutions to an efficiency problem. It's better to try to resolve the underlying cause of the poor efficiency. The place to start is getting control of the grain crush.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

If you're talking about squeezing a bag that has just been removed from the mash, then the answer is yes, you will gain a lot of wort by squeezing that bag.

If you're talking about squeezing a bag that has been allowed to fully drain by gravity, then the answer is no, that bag is not worth squeezing. You can, and you will get out a cup or so of wort, but that amount is not worth the sticky mess of squeezing.

I grind grains with a .025" mill gap. I let my bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil. I don't squeeze. I don't recirculate. In general I don't sparge, I only do that if I'm brewing a high ABV beer. My BH efficiency is in the low 80's. I can consistently hit or exceed recipe targets without modifying the recipe. The process is every bit as simple and enjoyable as it sounds, and the beer is great.

Thanks for your reply. When I first started BIAB I let my bag drip like you did. After I continued to read up on BIAB brewing I read many threads about squeezing. My hands did not care for it so that's when I decided to use the boards. Works great and no more burnt hands.

I'm heavily leaning towards my LHBS mill is not grinding fine enough. I'm going to try the pasta machine I modified to be a mill so I can get my grains finer. I will imagine that eventually I'll buy a mill.

Thanks again.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

I really feel after thinking this through that my grains are not being milled fine enough at my LHBS. I realized this after reading all the posts and looking back on my past brews. It finally occurred to me that I wasn't running my circulation pump dry because my bag was draining slowly did I realize my grain was too coarse. I would have to make sure to stir my grain bed often to keep the wort draining through the bag.

This brings me to using an old pasta machine and converting it to a mill. I feel this will help and in time I will invest on a real mill. There were many post validating this.

Now the interesting posts on here. To sparge or not to sparge. Years back when I wanted to go all grain, I read a lot on the 3 vessel system and felt maybe this beer making was too complicated. After understanding it, it wasn't that bad but then read about BIAB. Seemed very simple and maybe the best way to begin all grain brewing. I had already started looking kettles and coolers for a mash tun. Then one day came across a 20 gallon portable stainless steel whirlpool bath. Luckily it was going to be tossed out because they did don't support parts for it any more. It was perfect for an E-kettle. Being an electrician by trade there would be no problem building the kettle or control panel. That's when it began, BIAB E-kettle brewing. I have never looked back. I read all the time and the majority of BIABers don't sparge and have good efficiencies. I have done great with efficiencies till now but after reading the posts really feel it's my grains not being milled fine enough. Well at least I hope. I have a great self built unit and my own software to go with it.

With that said, the design of my kettle would make it easy to sparge if I wanted to try it. It's a 20 gallon oval with a bottom drain. Yes all the trub and fines go into my fermenters but don't care. I have a false bottom above my element with about 3 gallons of space. I could if I wanted hold out 3 gallons of water and after the mash is completed drain my wort out in a bucket, add the 3 gallons of water back into the kettle , heat to the desired temp and open the bag and circulate the water over the grains to flush out the remaining sugars. Then lift the bag, add the wort back in, one final squeeze and start my boil. Not too complicated and just a little more time. I could tell by my gravity readings and efficiencies to see if it's worth the extra step.

The new homemade mill will be the deciding factor.

Thanks again for all your help.

Brew on!!
Bill

 

[bracconiere]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

glad they could help! lol, i just read it as this problem started when you started doing 10 gallon batches.....and my god, you got balls man if you're going to mill 20+lb's of grain for a 10 gallon batch with a pasta roller!

 

[RM-MN]

I could if I wanted hold out 3 gallons of water and after the mash is completed drain my wort out in a bucket, add the 3 gallons of water back into the kettle , heat to the desired temp and open the bag and circulate the water over the grains to flush out the remaining sugars.

That's a lot of extra work/steps for very little gain over using cool water for the sparge. The bag of grains will be saturated with hot water from the mash so the sparge water gets heated quite a bit without being heated ahead of time.

 

[IslandLizard]

...and my god, you got balls man if you're going to mill 20+lb's of grain for a 10 gallon batch with a pasta roller!

You can say that again, exact same wording!
I think the OP @Bigarcherynut deserves to buy himself a decent mill.

As soon as I went all grain (did extract and PM before) I ordered an MM2 as my early birthday present. I never regretted that decision. Total control over the grist, and it all starts there (together with water)!

 

[bracconiere]

You can say that again, exact same wording!

being that even having to hold a drill on a real mill bugged me, and i motorized it..i'll be having nightmares about it all night tonight....(no, no, no..don't make me crank the pasta roller again! )

 

[IslandLizard]

being that even having to hold a drill on a real mill bugged me,

Not only that, I almost broke my wrist (twice) when the mill locked up. The reaction force tipped the whole mill over sideways, and bent the 3/8" drive shaft in the process, while spilling all the grain (only a pound at that time) in the driveway. Then I did it again, same happened, so I started to investigate a little deeper and found the slave roller had locked up. That's the power of a HF Low Speed (high torque) drill, and not even at half speed.

I mounted the drill to an enlarged base board. Hands free milling since then.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

glad they could help! lol, i just read it as this problem started when you started doing 10 gallon batches.....and my god, you got balls man if you're going to mill 20+lb's of grain for a 10 gallon batch with a pasta roller!

Well lets just say, I'll mill the big grain bill at my LBHS but then will finish them on my home built mill. Shouldn't take as much work. I'll be using an electric drill to do the actual work.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

That's a lot of extra work/steps for very little gain over using cool water for the sparge. The bag of grains will be saturated with hot water from the mash so the sparge water gets heated quite a bit without being heated ahead of time.

Thanks for the tip. Seeing I never did a sparge not sure if I needed to heat up the water. Even if I did wouldn't take much with the electric element.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

You can say that again, exact same wording!
I think the OP @Bigarcherynut deserves to buy himself a decent mill.

As soon as I went all grain (did extract and PM before) I ordered an MM2 as my early birthday present. I never regretted that decision. Total control over the grist, and it all starts there (together with water)!

I will most likely buy a mill at sometime but I love to build things on my own. That's how my system is and proud to say it's a dandy.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You can always build your own mill base to satisfy the need to do a DIY project. Plus you'll get the added satisfaction of milling your own grains.

 

[bracconiere]

I'll be using an electric drill to do the actual work.

ok that doesn't sound as bad, just my pasta roller is female, and i wouldn't be able to hook a drill to it.....unless we're talking about my kitchenaid one, but they cost as much as a grain mill...

 

[IslandLizard]

How are smooth pasta machine rollers going to grip and transport the grain or pre-crushed malt downward, through the gap? Have you tried it?
I have never tried this, and may be wrong, but I don't see this working at all.

Monster Mill makes fluted smooth rollers as a variation on the knurled ones for an arguably better crush, but the fluting, although shallow, provides the needed grip/friction essential to transporting grain (downward).

Are you going to build a feeding hopper for it too?

 

[bracconiere]

As far as i know, i've seen people 'scratch' the rollers to 'try' and convert them to grain mills.....