Best Guess at a Bud Select 55 clone

[Beermeister32]

Agree on this completely. We all love craft beer and our own brews. In the weekend when I’m working in the summer heat, I just need something light and reduced calorie to glug down in volume. My choice for this is Coors Light. Better that drinking chilled water……..!

 

[bracconiere]

I can get 30 packs of Busch Light for $20, so I don't see any point in homebrewing a clone of that. But what about version that has more flavor?

just got this $9.5 for 5 gallons instead of $20 for 3...i think i light munich beer would be pretty good, if you just want refreshing flavored water? (no that's not an insult, it's serious statement)

add gluco to get the dry finish....

 

[bwible]

Resurrected a thread from 2010.

My wife and I went through some of these diet, low calorie, and low carb beers. Michelob Ultra, Miller 64, Bud Next, couple others. She wanted to try the keto / low carb thing for awhile. As an aside, we found this diet is next to impossible to stay on as so many good things are high in carbs (pizza alone) and things you wouldn’t think have carbs do.

Anyhow, we found most of these beers are awful. Low carb / low calories / low color / low flavor. Miller 64 is 2.8% alcohol. Ultra is supposed to be one of the best - advertises 2.6 grams of carbs. For my money, I just keep coming back to good old Miller Lite for “diet beer”. It beats them all. And for Ultra’s 95 calories, 2.6 carbs, 4.2% abv - Lite has 96 calories, 3.2 carbs, 4.2% abv. Not that much difference nutritionally but a world of difference in color and flavor. Try any of these diet beers side by side with Lite and see for yourself. The original is still hard to beat - IMO.

 

[CornKing]

Select 55 is in my opinion the best lite beer out there. The flavor is enough to be satisfyingly acceptable without being bloated. And for those that say the ABV is to low drink what you want then and when your liver is distended and sticking out the right side of your abdomen like a small watermelon More Power To You.

Resurrected a thread from 2010.

My wife and I went through some of these diet, low calorie, and low carb beers. Michelob Ultra, Miller 64, Bud Next, couple others. She wanted to try the keto / low carb thing for awhile. As an aside, we found this diet is next to impossible to stay on as so many good things are high in carbs (pizza alone) and things you wouldn’t think have carbs do.

Anyhow, we found most of these beers are awful. Low carb / low calories / low color / low flavor. Miller 64 is 2.8% alcohol. Ultra is supposed to be one of the best - advertises 2.6 grams of carbs. For my money, I just keep coming back to good old Miller Lite for “diet beer”. It beats them all. And for Ultra’s 95 calories, 2.6 carbs, 4.2% abv - Lite has 96 calories, 3.2 carbs, 4.2% abv. Not that much difference nutritionally but a world of difference in color and flavor. Try any of these diet beers side by side with Lite and see for yourself. The original is still hard to beat - IMO.

Michelob ultra is a fantastic beer and I'll die on that hill. A lot of these preferences are regional. Mich ultra and busch lite are pretty popular with farm boys around these parts. I find both to be very crisp and delicate, very refreshing on a hot day and satisfying still in an ice hut in the winter. YMMV

Brewing one of these guys is tricky, but I have spent much time and energy pursuing this objective. I have done probably 4-5 iterations of regular "american lager" (e.g. bud heavy, coors banquet style) brews and about the same of light american lagers. As many professionals and brewing writers have remarked, its a challenging style to do well because the delicate flavor leaves nowhere to hide shortcomings. Things like water chemistry make profound impacts, and yeast variety and health also impart dramatic effects on light gravity worts like this. When brewing one of these it really is more chemical engineering than art or cooking. I can't say I've managed to brew a 55cal beer, but that isn't a goal I find worthwhile TBH. I have, however, gotten pretty low carb beers. This is a thing I am interested in as my wife is pre-diabetic and an IPA will spike her blood sugar needlessly. Plus, I need a good lawnmower beer I can crush on the reg.

In my opinion, a good standard american lager should be approached more like a classic american pilsner or pre-prohibition pilsner. Maybe slightly dialed back in terms of malt complexity and hop bitterness. I have had success with the following (I liked both of these but they were slightly different as I will elaborate):

roughly 2:2:1:1, 2-row: pilsner: rice: corn
This was a pretty good coors banquet/busch tasting beer. Very light in flavor with a touch of sweetness. A bit more sweetness than I wanted and not quite strong enough malt backbone. I brewed this a couple times with different hop schema and yeasts. Its really a good starting point. I also experimented with replacing one of the adjuncts for the other (i.e. 1:1:1 2-row: pils: rice) and its more or less fine... I don't care for that much rice I learned. Anyway, this led to the following formulation:

78% pils, 20% flaked maize, 2% caramunich
I quite like this. Just a touch more complexity, still very crisp and can finish plenty dry if you mash low, step mash etc.

For any standard (not lite) American lager I like to use classic new world hops in the 18-25 ibu range. Higher gets a little pilsnereque and if you want a crushable summer beer its better to be in the 15-18 range. Liberty, crystal, cluster, I use a blend of the three and whirlpool them as well.
My typical OG here is 1.045 and will finish around 1.006-1.008 with 34/70, WLP802, or modelo yeast. I think 802 (budijovic or w/e) is my favorite but 34/70 is prob the biggest crowd pleaser and most balanced. I will say more about modelo (wlp940/ que bueno) later. These gravities will net you around 5% abv and ~150 cal per 12oz. Its not that hard to brew this well, if you have good technique and practices for lager brewing e.g. temp control, build big starters, oxygenate your wort, etc. I have found that while this style benefits from lagering, the amount of time required for what I consider a very good and drinkable beer is quite short compared to other lager styles. Like, a marzen I feel I need to lager for at least a month, 2 preferably as it really does improve that much in that time frame in my experience. With the above beers, 2 weeks is quite adequate. Diminishing returns after that.

Lite beers is where it gets really tricky. In this style I really am shooting for low carb, which means low starting gravity and finishing bone dry. Keeping the beer crisp, but not tasting too dry, comes down to both recipe and water chemistry. I keep the water pretty soft to help here-- sulfites fairly low (20-50ppm), chloride a little higher (50-100ppm) and calcium in the minimum effective range (30-50 for yeast health). Despite experimenting with a fairly wide ibu/sg range, I have found you really do have to keep it low. I have found a few recipe approaches that "work" but I keep going back to this:

2:2:1 2-row: pils: rice or corn.

It gives a very lite and crisp flavor, with just a touch of sweetness. As long as the bitterness is balanced, its really good. Since my starting OG is usually around 1.03-.035, that means keeping the ibu around or under 10. Finishing dry is both a function of mashing and performance enhancing drugs (amylase!). Efficient mashing requires not just temp optimization but pH too, so I adjust pH right after I dough in. 5.2-5.3 is the sweet spot. I will rest at 145 for at least 90 minutes and then up to 160 for half an hour before mash out. As soon as I pitch the yeast, I also add glucoamylase, typically 10ml of white labs ultraferm. Patience pays off and after 2-3 weeks I will hit 1.000 or thereabouts. I find the best suited yeast for this style beer is modelo (wlp940 or imperial que bueno). There is an interesting article in zymurgy or craft beer and brewing or something like that where a blind tasting panel of bjcp judges and normies all rated test beers (same wort, pitched with a panel of yeasts) evaluated this yeast as better than a whole bunch of others, including old reliable (34/70). I really like the unique flavor it imparts, and its a super solid wort chewer to boot. I highly recommend.

So getting back to the whole 55 cal thing... is it doable? I dunno, depends on what you call beer. The above recipe yields a 4% abv beer at 4.5 g of carbs, for about 100 cal per 12oz (assuming 1.030->1.000).

 

[bwible]

Michelob ultra is a fantastic beer and I'll die on that hill. A lot of these preferences are regional. Mich ultra and busch lite are pretty popular with farm boys around these parts. I find both to be very crisp and delicate, very refreshing on a hot day and satisfying still in an ice hut in the winter. YMMV

Brewing one of these guys is tricky, but I have spent much time and energy pursuing this objective. I have done probably 4-5 iterations of regular "american lager" (e.g. bud heavy, coors banquet style) brews and about the same of light american lagers. As many professionals and brewing writers have remarked, its a challenging style to do well because the delicate flavor leaves nowhere to hide shortcomings. Things like water chemistry make profound impacts, and yeast variety and health also impart dramatic effects on light gravity worts like this. When brewing one of these it really is more chemical engineering than art or cooking. I can't say I've managed to brew a 55cal beer, but that isn't a goal I find worthwhile TBH. I have, however, gotten pretty low carb beers. This is a thing I am interested in as my wife is pre-diabetic and an IPA will spike her blood sugar needlessly. Plus, I need a good lawnmower beer I can crush on the reg.

In my opinion, a good standard american lager should be approached more like a classic american pilsner or pre-prohibition pilsner. Maybe slightly dialed back in terms of malt complexity and hop bitterness. I have had success with the following (I liked both of these but they were slightly different as I will elaborate):

roughly 2:2:1:1, 2-row: pilsner: rice: corn
This was a pretty good coors banquet/busch tasting beer. Very light in flavor with a touch of sweetness. A bit more sweetness than I wanted and not quite strong enough malt backbone. I brewed this a couple times with different hop schema and yeasts. Its really a good starting point. I also experimented with replacing one of the adjuncts for the other (i.e. 1:1:1 2-row: pils: rice) and its more or less fine... I don't care for that much rice I learned. Anyway, this led to the following formulation:

78% pils, 20% flaked maize, 2% caramunich
I quite like this. Just a touch more complexity, still very crisp and can finish plenty dry if you mash low, step mash etc.

For any standard (not lite) American lager I like to use classic new world hops in the 18-25 ibu range. Higher gets a little pilsnereque and if you want a crushable summer beer its better to be in the 15-18 range. Liberty, crystal, cluster, I use a blend of the three and whirlpool them as well.
My typical OG here is 1.045 and will finish around 1.006-1.008 with 34/70, WLP802, or modelo yeast. I think 802 (budijovic or w/e) is my favorite but 34/70 is prob the biggest crowd pleaser and most balanced. I will say more about modelo (wlp940/ que bueno) later. These gravities will net you around 5% abv and ~150 cal per 12oz. Its not that hard to brew this well, if you have good technique and practices for lager brewing e.g. temp control, build big starters, oxygenate your wort, etc. I have found that while this style benefits from lagering, the amount of time required for what I consider a very good and drinkable beer is quite short compared to other lager styles. Like, a marzen I feel I need to lager for at least a month, 2 preferably as it really does improve that much in that time frame in my experience. With the above beers, 2 weeks is quite adequate. Diminishing returns after that.

Lite beers is where it gets really tricky. In this style I really am shooting for low carb, which means low starting gravity and finishing bone dry. Keeping the beer crisp, but not tasting too dry, comes down to both recipe and water chemistry. I keep the water pretty soft to help here-- sulfites fairly low (20-50ppm), chloride a little higher (50-100ppm) and calcium in the minimum effective range (30-50 for yeast health). Despite experimenting with a fairly wide ibu/sg range, I have found you really do have to keep it low. I have found a few recipe approaches that "work" but I keep going back to this:

2:2:1 2-row: pils: rice or corn.

It gives a very lite and crisp flavor, with just a touch of sweetness. As long as the bitterness is balanced, its really good. Since my starting OG is usually around 1.03-.035, that means keeping the ibu around or under 10. Finishing dry is both a function of mashing and performance enhancing drugs (amylase!). Efficient mashing requires not just temp optimization but pH too, so I adjust pH right after I dough in. 5.2-5.3 is the sweet spot. I will rest at 145 for at least 90 minutes and then up to 160 for half an hour before mash out. As soon as I pitch the yeast, I also add glucoamylase, typically 10ml of white labs ultraferm. Patience pays off and after 2-3 weeks I will hit 1.000 or thereabouts. I find the best suited yeast for this style beer is modelo (wlp940 or imperial que bueno). There is an interesting article in zymurgy or craft beer and brewing or something like that where a blind tasting panel of bjcp judges and normies all rated test beers (same wort, pitched with a panel of yeasts) evaluated this yeast as better than a whole bunch of others, including old reliable (34/70). I really like the unique flavor it imparts, and its a super solid wort chewer to boot. I highly recommend.

So getting back to the whole 55 cal thing... is it doable? I dunno, depends on what you call beer. The above recipe yields a 4% abv beer at 4.5 g of carbs, for about 100 cal per 12oz (assuming 1.030->1.000).

Great post with lots of details. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.

2:2:1:1 2 row, pils, rice, corn works out to 1/3 of the malt bill in adjunct. A bit high percentage but as you said could be in line with a pre-pro. A pre-pro recipe would have at least some percentage of 6-row with that much adjunct. If you went 2:2:2:1:1 6 row, 2 row, pils, corn, rice then it would be about 25% adjunct with 12% ish 6 row. I usually just use corn. I have never used corn and rice in the same recipe.

Several people jokingly mentioned watering. But there’s no reason that couldn’t be a thing. What if you brewed something like a 3 gallon batch at 7% and then added 2 gallons of distilled water at the end? Is it as simple as 7 x 3 = 21 / 5 = 4.2%?

Would it be better to ferment the 3 gallons at 7% and add water to the finished beer in the keg or to add 2 gallons of water before fermentation and ferment the weaker beer? If you brew a stronger beer and water it then I’d think you could even use some darker malts since watering will lighten the color. Dark munich maybe.

I’d agree though that getting 55 calories, even watering the beer, is going to be hard. I’ve never used the enzymes like ultraferm. I have read if you do that you should dedicate a fermenter because it kind of hangs around into subsequent batches and its hard to get rid of.

For water, I’ve been in other discussions with people who know this stuff saying for American lager you want low minerals all around. Something like 25 calcium, 30-35 chloride and 30-35 sulfate. (Balanced) I don’t bother adjusting magnesium or sodium but by the time I dilute my water to get these other numbers low, it brings those down too. I did this profile for my last American lager and liked it.

 

[bwible]

And then there’s the opposite approach of extra enzymes, which is no enymes. Non Enzymatic Mashing (Cold Mashing)

https://brulosophy.com/2021/11/11/t...nd-ultralow-alcohol-beer-methods-made-simple/

 

[JAReeves]

Great post with lots of details. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.

2:2:1:1 2 row, pils, rice, corn works out to 1/3 of the malt bill in adjunct. A bit high percentage but as you said could be in line with a pre-pro. A pre-pro recipe would have at least some percentage of 6-row with that much adjunct. If you went 2:2:2:1:1 6 row, 2 row, pils, corn, rice then it would be about 25% adjunct with 12% ish 6 row. I usually just use corn. I have never used corn and rice in the same recipe.

Several people jokingly mentioned watering. But there’s no reason that couldn’t be a thing. What if you brewed something like a 3 gallon batch at 7% and then added 2 gallons of distilled water at the end? Is it as simple as 7 x 3 = 21 / 5 = 4.2%?

Would it be better to ferment the 3 gallons at 7% and add water to the finished beer in the keg or to add 2 gallons of water before fermentation and ferment the weaker beer? If you brew a stronger beer and water it then I’d think you could even use some darker malts since watering will lighten the color. Dark munich maybe.

I’d agree though that getting 55 calories, even watering the beer, is going to be hard. I’ve never used the enzymes like ultraferm. I have read if you do that you should dedicate a fermenter because it kind of hangs around into subsequent batches and its hard to get rid of.

For water, I’ve been in other discussions with people who know this stuff saying for American lager you want low minerals all around. Something like 25 calcium, 30-35 chloride and 30-35 sulfate. (Balanced) I don’t bother adjusting magnesium or sodium but by the time I dilute my water to get these other numbers low, it brings those down too. I did this profile for my last American lager and liked it.

From what I have read/heard, the only caution against adding water to already fermented beer is that you have to worry about the Dissolved Oxygen levels in the water. Breweries that do this de-aerate their water so oxidation doesn't occur, but for us at the homebrew level it's a little more complicated. Some home brewers will add a little sugar and yeast to their water in order for the yeast to scrub out the Oxygen. I am not sure how effective this is on our scale, so I just do full size batches or add the water in prior to fermentation to lower the Starting Gravity.

 

[bwible]

From what I have read/heard, the only caution against adding water to already fermented beer is that you have to worry about the Dissolved Oxygen levels in the water. Breweries that do this de-aerate their water so oxidation doesn't occur, but for us at the homebrew level it's a little more complicated. Some home brewers will add a little sugar and yeast to their water in order for the yeast to scrub out the Oxygen. I am not sure how effective this is on our scale, so I just do full size batches or add the water in prior to fermentation to lower the Starting Gravity.

What if I used gallon jugs of distilled water from Walmart or the supermarket?

 

[JAReeves]

What if I used gallon jugs of distilled water from Walmart or the supermarket?

Honestly, I haven't any idea how to gauge the effect it will have on a post-fermentation brew. Aside from having a Dissolved Oxygen meter/tester, maybe @IslandLizard or @doug293cz or one of the other mods has a chart for estimating? I have read a lot of the LODO posts, and they use the sugar&yeast method to knock all of the O2 out of their mash water. Other than hops and the occasional vodka-based tincture, I am nervous about adding anything other than CO2 to a fermented brew. Unless I am trying to infect or oxidize my beer, but there is usually a plan for that as well. Usually.

 

[Broothru]

Michelob ultra is a fantastic beer and I'll die on that hill. A lot of these preferences are regional. Mich ultra and busch lite are pretty popular with farm boys around these parts. I find both to be very crisp and delicate, very refreshing on a hot day and satisfying still in an ice hut in the winter. YMMV

Brewing one of these guys is tricky, but I have spent much time and energy pursuing this objective. I have done probably 4-5 iterations of regular "american lager" (e.g. bud heavy, coors banquet style) brews and about the same of light american lagers. As many professionals and brewing writers have remarked, its a challenging style to do well because the delicate flavor leaves nowhere to hide shortcomings. Things like water chemistry make profound impacts, and yeast variety and health also impart dramatic effects on light gravity worts like this. When brewing one of these it really is more chemical engineering than art or cooking. I can't say I've managed to brew a 55cal beer, but that isn't a goal I find worthwhile TBH. I have, however, gotten pretty low carb beers. This is a thing I am interested in as my wife is pre-diabetic and an IPA will spike her blood sugar needlessly. Plus, I need a good lawnmower beer I can crush on the reg.

In my opinion, a good standard american lager should be approached more like a classic american pilsner or pre-prohibition pilsner. Maybe slightly dialed back in terms of malt complexity and hop bitterness. I have had success with the following (I liked both of these but they were slightly different as I will elaborate):

roughly 2:2:1:1, 2-row: pilsner: rice: corn
This was a pretty good coors banquet/busch tasting beer. Very light in flavor with a touch of sweetness. A bit more sweetness than I wanted and not quite strong enough malt backbone. I brewed this a couple times with different hop schema and yeasts. Its really a good starting point. I also experimented with replacing one of the adjuncts for the other (i.e. 1:1:1 2-row: pils: rice) and its more or less fine... I don't care for that much rice I learned. Anyway, this led to the following formulation:

78% pils, 20% flaked maize, 2% caramunich
I quite like this. Just a touch more complexity, still very crisp and can finish plenty dry if you mash low, step mash etc.

For any standard (not lite) American lager I like to use classic new world hops in the 18-25 ibu range. Higher gets a little pilsnereque and if you want a crushable summer beer its better to be in the 15-18 range. Liberty, crystal, cluster, I use a blend of the three and whirlpool them as well.
My typical OG here is 1.045 and will finish around 1.006-1.008 with 34/70, WLP802, or modelo yeast. I think 802 (budijovic or w/e) is my favorite but 34/70 is prob the biggest crowd pleaser and most balanced. I will say more about modelo (wlp940/ que bueno) later. These gravities will net you around 5% abv and ~150 cal per 12oz. Its not that hard to brew this well, if you have good technique and practices for lager brewing e.g. temp control, build big starters, oxygenate your wort, etc. I have found that while this style benefits from lagering, the amount of time required for what I consider a very good and drinkable beer is quite short compared to other lager styles. Like, a marzen I feel I need to lager for at least a month, 2 preferably as it really does improve that much in that time frame in my experience. With the above beers, 2 weeks is quite adequate. Diminishing returns after that.

Lite beers is where it gets really tricky. In this style I really am shooting for low carb, which means low starting gravity and finishing bone dry. Keeping the beer crisp, but not tasting too dry, comes down to both recipe and water chemistry. I keep the water pretty soft to help here-- sulfites fairly low (20-50ppm), chloride a little higher (50-100ppm) and calcium in the minimum effective range (30-50 for yeast health). Despite experimenting with a fairly wide ibu/sg range, I have found you really do have to keep it low. I have found a few recipe approaches that "work" but I keep going back to this:

2:2:1 2-row: pils: rice or corn.

It gives a very lite and crisp flavor, with just a touch of sweetness. As long as the bitterness is balanced, its really good. Since my starting OG is usually around 1.03-.035, that means keeping the ibu around or under 10. Finishing dry is both a function of mashing and performance enhancing drugs (amylase!). Efficient mashing requires not just temp optimization but pH too, so I adjust pH right after I dough in. 5.2-5.3 is the sweet spot. I will rest at 145 for at least 90 minutes and then up to 160 for half an hour before mash out. As soon as I pitch the yeast, I also add glucoamylase, typically 10ml of white labs ultraferm. Patience pays off and after 2-3 weeks I will hit 1.000 or thereabouts. I find the best suited yeast for this style beer is modelo (wlp940 or imperial que bueno). There is an interesting article in zymurgy or craft beer and brewing or something like that where a blind tasting panel of bjcp judges and normies all rated test beers (same wort, pitched with a panel of yeasts) evaluated this yeast as better than a whole bunch of others, including old reliable (34/70). I really like the unique flavor it imparts, and its a super solid wort chewer to boot. I highly recommend.

So getting back to the whole 55 cal thing... is it doable? I dunno, depends on what you call beer. The above recipe yields a 4% abv beer at 4.5 g of carbs, for about 100 cal per 12oz (assuming 1.030->1.000).

Great summation, and thanks for the results of your trial batches. I've brewed several 'experimental' low carb/calorie beers that turned out well, and will benefit from your tips in future iterations.

Amyloglucosidase will definitely get your FG below 1.000 (0.995 is achievable, but gets pretty thin; 0.998 was a good sweetspot target). Andechs strain yeasts seem to work really well. I've used Wyeast 2105-PC and WLP-835x, and Imperial also has a seasonal Andechs yeast as well. Hops combos of Cluster, Nugget and Liberty are great 'team players', and a touch of six row adds another element of North American character.

 

[Broothru]

hmm, if i was going to brew a extra lite beer...

it'd be something like 5-6lbs base malt
a tad of munich 10.

lightly hopped

and fermented dry with the help of gluco...but for me i'd just end up drinking more of it, so the lower calories really wouldn't matter to me. i'd just end up draining a keg quicker, but honestly if you only need 1-2 low ABV beers to be conntent "WHY NOT"!

Actually, I'm right now sipping a very delightful 2.3% local (St. Pete, FL) brew called "DeSoto Low". Think, Spanish explorer Ferdinand DeSoto, rather than a '50s Chrysler, chopped and channeled low-rider). 45 IBUs, but plenty of backbone to call this a legit IPA. Not much info out there on the process the brewers at Green Bench used to make this beer, but I'd like to know.

A few weeks ago I was at the brewery with a large group of my daughter's friends, one of whom used to work for Miller. He's quite knowledgeable about beer and brewing, and he's the one who talked me into trying the DeSoto, which he really likes, and his comparative contrast of this beer over Miller Lite, Bud Lite, Coors, etc.