Belle Saison

[blasterooni]

Hold on, I used Go-Ferm (6g), DAP (5g) and LBHS Yeast Nute (4g) in the Nottingham batch

 

[FunkyMunk]

Right on, thanks for the info. Sounds like I might need more nutrient next time. My cider is pretty much ready to rack, the sulfur is nearly gone. Unfortunately it came out pretty bland, almost watery. (I used juice obtained from a blend of apples from a local orchard intended for fermented cider.) It's not bad, just not as flavorful as I was hoping, although it is definitely very clean. The juice was 1.049 to begin with, but I've definitely made good cider with starting gravities that low, so maybe backsweetening and carbonating will help. (Still waiting to check final gravity.) I would age it but I usually do at least one batch a year to drink that fall, and a pie spice cider sounds pretty good right about now...

 

[blasterooni]

Right on, thanks for the info. Sounds like I might need more nutrient next time. My cider is pretty much ready to rack, the sulfur is nearly gone. Unfortunately it came out pretty bland, almost watery. (I used juice obtained from a blend of apples from a local orchard intended for fermented cider.) It's not bad, just not as flavorful as I was hoping, although it is definitely very clean. The juice was 1.049 to begin with, but I've definitely made good cider with starting gravities that low, so maybe backsweetening and carbonating will help. (Still waiting to check final gravity.) I would age it but I usually do at least one batch a year to drink that fall, and a pie spice cider sounds pretty good right about now...

Apparently, if the pH is too high it can be a little watery. I had the same problem recently with a cider done with voss kveik. I added some malic acid to drop the pH, and ill be checking it tonight. Ill let u know if it helped. Im still learning

 

[FunkyMunk]

Apparently, if the pH is too high it can be a little watery. I had the same problem recently with a cider done with voss kveik. I added some malic acid to drop the pH, and ill be checking it tonight. Ill let u know if it helped. Im still learning

That's a good call! I'm too lazy to check pH with ciders and usually let taste guide me, and my other cider made from Red Gravensteins has much better acidity than this cider, so maybe I'll try that. A titratable acidity kit is on my list of toys to pick up eventually.

 

[blasterooni]

That's a good call! I'm too lazy to check pH with ciders and usually let taste guide me, and my other cider made from Red Gravensteins has much better acidity than this cider, so maybe I'll try that. A titratable acidity kit is on my list of toys to pick up eventually.

Same here, so many toys to get! I did get a much better flavor after lowering the pH

 

[FunkyMunk]

I kegged my cider today, about 2 weeks since pitching. It had settled pretty well, and there was just a bit of off-gassing from the lees. Final gravity was 0.998. It's still a bit sulfury but it should clear up eventually. The pH was 3.5, and tasting it again I found it a bit more flavorful than previously. I would say it's very clean, I definitely don't taste anything off about it. There was something reminiscent of a saison to it but I'm not sure I would call it "peppery"... spicy/earthy maybe? Adding a little sugar helped bring out the apple flavor a lot. I don't think I will add acid, after all, since it seems to be ok as is. My plan is to backsweeten to about 1.007 and steep some cinnamon and allspice in the keg.

 

[blasterooni]

I kegged my cider today, about 2 weeks since pitching. It had settled pretty well, and there was just a bit of off-gassing from the lees. Final gravity was 0.998. It's still a bit sulfury but it should clear up eventually. The pH was 3.5, and tasting it again I found it a bit more flavorful than previously. I would say it's very clean, I definitely don't taste anything off about it. There was something reminiscent of a saison to it but I'm not sure I would call it "peppery"... spicy/earthy maybe? Adding a little sugar helped bring out the apple flavor a lot. I don't think I will add acid, after all, since it seems to be ok as is. My plan is to backsweeten to about 1.007 and steep some cinnamon and allspice in the keg.

I dont really drink beer ever, and wanting to see what the saison was all about in the beer world, I picked one up. I wanted to see what the beer tasted like so I had something to compare with when tasting cider done with a saison. As far all the fruity, and peppery flavors there are in the belgian beer, I didn't really taste those in the cider. I wonder if the malt is what picks up or brings out the flavors some of the yeasts are claimed to provide. Maybe the sugars in apples aren't compex enough, or some such thing...It was good nonetheless but certainly didn't taste like the belgian ale that I tasted. To be honest, I didn't even like it, so I gave it to the wifey since she isn't picky by any stretch of the imagination.
Now, I'd like to taste a beer made with Voss Kveik to compare

 

[Blacksmith1]

Search this forum for phenolic precursors. Look at the posts from @RPh_Guy. He has described this at least half a dozen times.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Search this forum for phenolic precursors. Look at the posts from @RPh_Guy. He has described this at least half a dozen times.

In this very thread.

Unlike wort, apple juice doesn't have phenolic precursors, so phenol expression will be slight at most.

Yeast require certain compounds in order to make the phenolic flavors. Those compounds aren't present in apple juice. Therefore, minimal phenolic flavor.
You should get some of the fruity esters though.

What compounds? I'm glad you asked. 4-vinylguaicol, caffeic acid, and p-coumaric acid are the notable ones.

I personally don't like most Sacc phenolic flavor from Saison yeast (pepper, gross!) and I especially don't like the idea of using Belle since it forms a biofilm and is super-attenuating. Of course, none of this is an issue in cider making, only beer.
Brett phenols on the other hand are quite delicious to my taste, but again I haven't had much Brett phenolic expression in my ciders, probably again from the lack of precursors.
Cheers!

 

[Coldfrog]

The airlock is now close to a stand still. Will take a gravity reading today, and aim to stabilize before transferring to secondary. I haven't decided whether to put it into the fermentation chamber at 60 F, or... I know I won't keep it heated as I see no need to do so since fermentation will be complete. Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated.

@Coldfrog do you transfer to secondary and clear, or just go straight to keg? I plan to bottle carb this batch, though I could transfer to my corny keg and force carb as you do. How long does it take to reach your target CO2? (It will be my first time kegging if I do this)

I go straight to keg. I’m usually fully carbed in about two weeks. I don’t shake the keg as I’m usually finishing the previous keg, so I don’t need to speed it up.

 

[Coldfrog]

Coldfrog- do you retain any "saisonness" in your cider? I've played with that yeast for two batches (simultaneously) and the cider turned out very clean. As if I used regular yeast. Ferm temp was high 60s/low 70's.

It’s been a long time since I’ve drank beer, but my impression is that it retains some “saisaonness”. It definitely ferments clean, and it retains quite a bit of apple flavor and crisp tartness, as compared to ale yeasts and others I have used. I just finished a keg in which I added in blueberry juice concentrate in secondary. It’s got great flavor and the blueberry lends the slightest bit of sweetness, which goes well with the tartness from the saison. It also has more body.

 

[FunkyMunk]

I kegged my cider today, about 2 weeks since pitching. It had settled pretty well, and there was just a bit of off-gassing from the lees. Final gravity was 0.998. It's still a bit sulfury but it should clear up eventually. The pH was 3.5, and tasting it again I found it a bit more flavorful than previously. I would say it's very clean, I definitely don't taste anything off about it. There was something reminiscent of a saison to it but I'm not sure I would call it "peppery"... spicy/earthy maybe? Adding a little sugar helped bring out the apple flavor a lot. I don't think I will add acid, after all, since it seems to be ok as is. My plan is to backsweeten to about 1.007 and steep some cinnamon and allspice in the keg.

After a bit of aging in the keg, the sulfur disappeared, and I backsweetened to off-dry and steeped some cinnamon and allspice in a mesh hop sack right in the keg, gave it a few days to carb up in the fridge. The cider came out great. There was some tartness that balanced well with the spices and the touch of sweetness, and there was decent apple flavor. I carbed to 12 psi and it has a really good mouth feel. I intentionally went lighter on both the sugar and the spices than I thought I would need to, so neither is overwhelming and it's easy to have a few pints, actually a little too easy. I'd probably use this yeast again if I had to ferment warm; curious to see how it would be without spices, although it was pretty good with them.