Belle Saison

[blasterooni]

I've started a 3 gallon batch of cider using a gallon of gravenstein apple juice, and 2 gallons of Hansens from the local grocery store. I decided to try Belle Saison yeast to see about these spicy notes its known for. I want the OG to be 1.063, which is perfect for the 11g pack of yeast per the Lallemande pitch rate calculator. I wrapped the juice-filled carboy with a fermawrap heater and wrapped that in mylar bubblewrap (the stuff that comes with a grocery order from Amazon), and set the thermostat to 85 degrees Fahrenheit to bring the temperature to 85 before I pitch the yeast. This morning, the temp is at 82, which is close enough for pitching. My intention is to keep the temp steady throughout the entire fermentation process all the way to bottle conditioning. The recipe is nothing special; I added 1 1/2 cups brown sugar, and 1 cup of table sugar. I'll check the gravity before pitching and adjust if needed to achieve 1.063 give or take a point or two. I almost forgot! I'll have to account for the temp of the juice too, I will have to add 0.003 to the number, so 1.060 is the target on the hydrometer.

 

[blasterooni]

When I checked the gravity before pitching I got 1.067, so 1.070. After closing the head space with straight juice, it dropped by a point. Not exactly what I was after, so in effect I under-pitched according to the pitch calculator. Not a big deal, and maybe it will add some character? We'll see, and that's part of the fun of it, right?

The airlock is rolling like a crazy train. The internal temp was 94.3 F when I checked this morning, while the sensor on the outside of the carboy read 87. I adjusted the thermostat to 75 F assuming that the variance will be constant that is a 7 F difference from the outside and inside temperature. I will check later to see if the assumption holds. In a sense, this a practice run for when I roll with the Voss Kveik in a month or two. (Wish I could upload a short video of the airlock in overdrive)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you insulate the temp probe against the carboy?

 

[blasterooni]

oops. this was meant to be a reply to a post

 

[blasterooni]

Do you insulate the temp probe against the carboy?

View attachment 640863

Not exactly, however, I wrap the carboy with bubble wrap, and the temp probe is under the bubble wrap. In the pic, your temp probe is under that piece of foam. Do the two temps agree? At least close enough? That's an interesting airlock by the way

 

[RPh_Guy]

I actually haven't tested the temperature difference. The carboy wall is thin and with the insulation I trust it's close enough. Other people with this setup have found the probe and internal temperature to match.

The "airlock" is a blow-off tube. It eliminates risk of overflow/catastrophic failure from excessive kräusen.

 

[blasterooni]

Fermentation is at one week, and the airlock is still active, but much much slower. The temperature has been steady at 83 F, +/- a few points . I'm going to check the gravity today to see how much of the sugar has been fermented at this point. I may add some nutes if I've reached 2/3 sugar break. I did a taste taste yesterday, and it tasted really nice, and I did notice that "peppery" note that I am after, but it's still pretty sweet. So far, I am really enjoying the process of using Belle Saison and getting a good feel for using the fermwrap. I would love to have a device where the temp probe is submersible so as to eliminate any guess work

Soon, I will be headed to Sebastapol to get some fresh pressed, unpasteurized cider to brew a batch using the Voss Kveik yeast, and another using the wild yeast on the apples (Probably going to need a second fridge; good thing my wife easy going and likes the cider I make . Although the landlord might not like the increased electric bill, and may have to run a new circuit to accommodate the increase load...fun, or put the fridge in my daughters room, not sure how that will go, but she is pretty forgiving as well)

 

[blasterooni]

SG is 1.004 so I'm getting close to full dryness, no additions required. Smells delicious! Dropped temp to 70 F on the thermostat...wonder what my next step will be...? Time for a little more research

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would love to have a device where the temp probe is submersible so as to eliminate any guess work

You can use a stopper with a "thermowell" for whatever kind of fermenter and probe you have. However, an insulated probe on the side (like in my photo) is definitely good enough.
Cheers

 

[Coldfrog]

SG is 1.004 so I'm getting close to full dryness, no additions required. Smells delicious! Dropped temp to 70 F on the thermostat...wonder what my next step will be...? Time for a little more research

My house cider is 5-gallons of juice from a local cider producer (1.068 sg) with Belle Saison yeast. I set the minimum temp on my fermenter to 68 degrees and let it ride (usually gets in the mid 70s when yeast is active). I’ve made 6 batches so far and everyone loves it. It ends up at 1.000 sg and I force carbonate and leave it dry. It has good apple flavor and is very drinkable at 12 psi carbonation.

 

[blasterooni]

The airlock is now close to a stand still. Will take a gravity reading today, and aim to stabilize before transferring to secondary. I haven't decided whether to put it into the fermentation chamber at 60 F, or... I know I won't keep it heated as I see no need to do so since fermentation will be complete. Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated.

@Coldfrog do you transfer to secondary and clear, or just go straight to keg? I plan to bottle carb this batch, though I could transfer to my corny keg and force carb as you do. How long does it take to reach your target CO2? (It will be my first time kegging if I do this)

 

[AzOr]

My house cider is 5-gallons of juice from a local cider producer (1.068 sg) with Belle Saison yeast. I set the minimum temp on my fermenter to 68 degrees and let it ride (usually gets in the mid 70s when yeast is active). I’ve made 6 batches so far and everyone loves it. It ends up at 1.000 sg and I force carbonate and leave it dry. It has good apple flavor and is very drinkable at 12 psi carbonation.

Coldfrog- do you retain any "saisonness" in your cider? I've played with that yeast for two batches (simultaneously) and the cider turned out very clean. As if I used regular yeast. Ferm temp was high 60s/low 70's.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Coldfrog- do you retain any "saisonness" in your cider? I've played with that yeast for two batches (simultaneously) and the cider turned out very clean. As if I used regular yeast. Ferm temp was high 60s/low 70's.

Unlike wort, apple juice doesn't have phenolic precursors, so phenol expression will be slight at most.

 

[AzOr]

Thanks for info. I kinda figured that was happening.
I’d be interested in hearing how high people were fermenting while getting the same clean yeast profile from that strain.
Occasionally, my ferm chamber gets overwhelmed and it would be nice to know I can ferment high during late summer in my garage.

 

[blasterooni]

Thanks for info. I kinda figured that was happening.
I’d be interested in hearing how high people were fermenting while getting the same clean yeast profile from that strain.
Occasionally, my ferm chamber gets overwhelmed and it would be nice to know I can ferment high during late summer in my garage.

How hot does it get in your garage in the summer?

 

[AzOr]

75-90f. I meant that my Ferm chamber gets full not overwhelmed temp wise.

 

[blasterooni]

Gravity appears stable at 1.000 over the last 5 days. Time to Rack em up to secondary

 

[blasterooni]

75-90f. I meant that my Ferm chamber gets full not overwhelmed temp wise.

I'm sure you'd be fine to use Belle Saison in that temp range, tho this is my first go with it. The temp fluctuated a little from low 80's to low 90's. Taste tests along the way have shown no problems thus far, and the aroma is clean. The taste has been "refreshing" for lack of a better description at each gravity test. I am excited to see how this ages (I can finally age properly, now that I have a good stock of cider that should last quite awhile, yes, I have been impatient, and have cracked the bottles early without any proper aging).

 

[blasterooni]

I racked it the other day, and the juice is already quite clear, not crystal clear. I added some fresh juice to close the headspace expecting to get some activity in the airlock, but not a single bubble. Is it possible that most of the yeast flocculated and theres not enough left to get it rolling again? Im tempted to bottle it with some cbc-1, and maybe dry hop half of it with citra first. I do want to see if i get the flavors that the belle saison is said to impart at high temp fermentation, tho the census is leaning toward "nope".
Id dry hop just for the experience more than anything else. I do like hopped ciders tho, so maybe i could make one that i like. Wont know unless u try

 

[blasterooni]

I did end up dry hopping this cider, and I did a taste test last night and damn is that good! I'll probably bottle it up tomorrow. I think there is enough residual sugars to bottle carbonate (a gravity test will tell the tale), it could dry out a little more.

A side note: I kept this batch covered for the entire duration of fermentation, and I'm noticing a crisper flavor. When I've let the cider ferment exposed to light, the mouthfeel is "thick" to use my wife's word, and I have to agree.

 

[FunkyMunk]

I just picked up some juice and some Belle Saison, plan on pitching later today. I've made lots of cider but never used this yeast, but I've heard a lot of good reports. I'm going to forego temp control (my ferm chambers are also full) so it will probably stay in the low-mid 70s. I also plan on using nutrients, GoFerm then either Fermaid K or Fermaid O, to see if that reduces sulfur and helps with the flavor. I'm expecting quick turnaround so we can drink it this fall; I have another batch that I'm treating more like wine, that will age for a few months.

 

[greywolf]

My house cider is done in a homer bucket with 3711. Sits is a corner of my workshop/brewshed at what ever temp it is. That bucket has been churning out one batch after another for a year now. It seems to work just fine at shop temp, maybe a little more pepper at summer temps.

 

[blasterooni]

My house cider is done in a homer bucket with 3711. Sits is a corner of my workshop/brewshed at what ever temp it is. That bucket has been churning out one batch after another for a year now. It seems to work just fine at shop temp, maybe a little more pepper at summer temps.

Its cool to see how a certain yeast will perform differently under different conditions; its something I look forward to experiencing over time (since I basically just started, but I have already used several strains already. Nottingham is next on the list)

 

[FunkyMunk]

SG is 1.004 so I'm getting close to full dryness, no additions required. Smells delicious! Dropped temp to 70 F on the thermostat...wonder what my next step will be...? Time for a little more research

Did you get any rhino farts at all? I pitched Belle Saison yesterday and gave it 2 g of Fermaid O, today it was getting sulfury so I gave it another 2 g and it went away. Trying to keep the sulfur down because I don't want to have to age it out. Temp has been steady at 72 F.

 

[Sequoiacider]

I did end up dry hopping this cider, and I did a taste test last night and damn is that good! I'll probably bottle it up tomorrow. I think there is enough residual sugars to bottle carbonate (a gravity test will tell the tale), it could dry out a little more.

I would find it surprising if there are still enough residual sugars left for carbonation. Depending on how much juice you added when you closed the headspace upon racking to secondary, it is very possible that it fermented out the additional sugars without you even noticing the activity in the airlock. Even crystal-clear cider still has enough active yeast in it to continue fermentation when re-introduced to sugar (I never re-pitch when bottling even the clearest of ciders, and I always add priming sugar). It sounds like you were planning to check gravity before bottling and adding priming sugar as needed, so you should be good to go. You definitely should take that step.

 

[blasterooni]

Did you get any rhino farts at all? I pitched Belle Saison yesterday and gave it 2 g of Fermaid O, today it was getting sulfury so I gave it another 2 g and it went away. Trying to keep the sulfur down because I don't want to have to age it out. Temp has been steady at 72 F.

I didn't get any sulfur smell. I used DAP and yeast nutrient right at the start, and when the airlock activity slowed, I added 1/4 tsp of DAP and/yeast nutrient from the LHBS.

 

[blasterooni]

I would find it surprising if there are still enough residual sugars left for carbonation. Depending on how much juice you added when you closed the headspace upon racking to secondary, it is very possible that it fermented out the additional sugars without you even noticing the activity in the airlock. Even crystal-clear cider still has enough active yeast in it to continue fermentation when re-introduced to sugar (I never re-pitch when bottling even the clearest of ciders, and I always add priming sugar). It sounds like you were planning to check gravity before bottling and adding priming sugar as needed, so you should be good to go. You definitely should take that step.

I didn't add priming sugar just to see if it would carb with low sugar content, and it did, but not much, and not to my liking. I like it carbed in the 3's. As far as the hops, it came thru nicely adding a little sweetness and as the name suggested, I got an orange citrus flavor. However, I am gong to add the hops sooner and let it steep for a longer period of time as I like additions to really come thru rather than just a hint or more. I have a batch brewing with Voss Kveik (just racked to secondary last night) that I'm going to dry hop, but this one will be keg carbed

 

[FunkyMunk]

I didn't get any sulfur smell. I used DAP and yeast nutrient right at the start, and when the airlock activity slowed, I added 1/4 tsp of DAP and/yeast nutrient from the LHBS.

Mind if I ask how much DAP and yeast nutrient you added at the start? Why did you add more when the airlock activity slowed? I added 6 g of Fermaid O across 3 additions, and the sulfur went down after each one but came back eventually. Fermentation finished in less than a week, and I racked it to a carboy and topped off with more juice, which restarted fermentation but the sulfur isn't that bad right now.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I put what the nute calls for + a little bit since cider has less natural yeast nutrition than wine grapes, and it was made for grape juice. When I forget is when I get sulpher.

 

[blasterooni]

Mind if I ask how much DAP and yeast nutrient you added at the start? Why did you add more when the airlock activity slowed? I added 6 g of Fermaid O across 3 additions, and the sulfur went down after each one but came back eventually. Fermentation finished in less than a week, and I racked it to a carboy and topped off with more juice, which restarted fermentation but the sulfur isn't that bad right now.

I don't have any experience with those, the fermaid O or K, I just got some tho, and I used them, along with DAP, yesterday when I started a batch with Nottinghams

I added 5g of yeast nute (the package calls for 1g/gallon, its just some stuff I get at the LHBS with their label), and 4g of DAP at the start , and then added 1/4 tsp of each again when it slowed thinking it would help get the fermentation going again, which it did. I sort of follow that add nutes every 1/3, but I just watch the airlock instead of measuring. I think I did this twice, but it isn't in my notes, I have some recollection of doing it more than once. Maybe I am being lazy about taking the gravity readings, but I kind of like going with my gut, thus far it seems to be working. I still haven't had the rhino fart problem...yet anyways
Then, after racking the fermentation restarted when I topped it off. I keep my pH at 3.4-3.6, I don't know if this makes a difference in mitigating sulfur production or not, but I have noticed greater airlock activity shortly after making adjustments in pH, although it may just be causing dissolved CO2 to be released (?).
I'm still, and quite likely will forever be, getting my head wrapped around the science of making cider. So much microbiology going on! There's a whole universe inside that carboy, those yeasties probably even have some form of written communication, intelligent little dudes. I mean, come on, they make alcohol for crying out loud! NOt bad for something we cant even see with our own eyes

 

[blasterooni]

Hold on, I used Go-Ferm (6g), DAP (5g) and LBHS Yeast Nute (4g) in the Nottingham batch

 

[FunkyMunk]

Right on, thanks for the info. Sounds like I might need more nutrient next time. My cider is pretty much ready to rack, the sulfur is nearly gone. Unfortunately it came out pretty bland, almost watery. (I used juice obtained from a blend of apples from a local orchard intended for fermented cider.) It's not bad, just not as flavorful as I was hoping, although it is definitely very clean. The juice was 1.049 to begin with, but I've definitely made good cider with starting gravities that low, so maybe backsweetening and carbonating will help. (Still waiting to check final gravity.) I would age it but I usually do at least one batch a year to drink that fall, and a pie spice cider sounds pretty good right about now...

 

[blasterooni]

Right on, thanks for the info. Sounds like I might need more nutrient next time. My cider is pretty much ready to rack, the sulfur is nearly gone. Unfortunately it came out pretty bland, almost watery. (I used juice obtained from a blend of apples from a local orchard intended for fermented cider.) It's not bad, just not as flavorful as I was hoping, although it is definitely very clean. The juice was 1.049 to begin with, but I've definitely made good cider with starting gravities that low, so maybe backsweetening and carbonating will help. (Still waiting to check final gravity.) I would age it but I usually do at least one batch a year to drink that fall, and a pie spice cider sounds pretty good right about now...

Apparently, if the pH is too high it can be a little watery. I had the same problem recently with a cider done with voss kveik. I added some malic acid to drop the pH, and ill be checking it tonight. Ill let u know if it helped. Im still learning

 

[FunkyMunk]

Apparently, if the pH is too high it can be a little watery. I had the same problem recently with a cider done with voss kveik. I added some malic acid to drop the pH, and ill be checking it tonight. Ill let u know if it helped. Im still learning

That's a good call! I'm too lazy to check pH with ciders and usually let taste guide me, and my other cider made from Red Gravensteins has much better acidity than this cider, so maybe I'll try that. A titratable acidity kit is on my list of toys to pick up eventually.

 

[blasterooni]

That's a good call! I'm too lazy to check pH with ciders and usually let taste guide me, and my other cider made from Red Gravensteins has much better acidity than this cider, so maybe I'll try that. A titratable acidity kit is on my list of toys to pick up eventually.

Same here, so many toys to get! I did get a much better flavor after lowering the pH

 

[FunkyMunk]

I kegged my cider today, about 2 weeks since pitching. It had settled pretty well, and there was just a bit of off-gassing from the lees. Final gravity was 0.998. It's still a bit sulfury but it should clear up eventually. The pH was 3.5, and tasting it again I found it a bit more flavorful than previously. I would say it's very clean, I definitely don't taste anything off about it. There was something reminiscent of a saison to it but I'm not sure I would call it "peppery"... spicy/earthy maybe? Adding a little sugar helped bring out the apple flavor a lot. I don't think I will add acid, after all, since it seems to be ok as is. My plan is to backsweeten to about 1.007 and steep some cinnamon and allspice in the keg.

 

[blasterooni]

I kegged my cider today, about 2 weeks since pitching. It had settled pretty well, and there was just a bit of off-gassing from the lees. Final gravity was 0.998. It's still a bit sulfury but it should clear up eventually. The pH was 3.5, and tasting it again I found it a bit more flavorful than previously. I would say it's very clean, I definitely don't taste anything off about it. There was something reminiscent of a saison to it but I'm not sure I would call it "peppery"... spicy/earthy maybe? Adding a little sugar helped bring out the apple flavor a lot. I don't think I will add acid, after all, since it seems to be ok as is. My plan is to backsweeten to about 1.007 and steep some cinnamon and allspice in the keg.

I dont really drink beer ever, and wanting to see what the saison was all about in the beer world, I picked one up. I wanted to see what the beer tasted like so I had something to compare with when tasting cider done with a saison. As far all the fruity, and peppery flavors there are in the belgian beer, I didn't really taste those in the cider. I wonder if the malt is what picks up or brings out the flavors some of the yeasts are claimed to provide. Maybe the sugars in apples aren't compex enough, or some such thing...It was good nonetheless but certainly didn't taste like the belgian ale that I tasted. To be honest, I didn't even like it, so I gave it to the wifey since she isn't picky by any stretch of the imagination.
Now, I'd like to taste a beer made with Voss Kveik to compare

 

[Blacksmith1]

Search this forum for phenolic precursors. Look at the posts from @RPh_Guy. He has described this at least half a dozen times.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Search this forum for phenolic precursors. Look at the posts from @RPh_Guy. He has described this at least half a dozen times.

In this very thread.

Unlike wort, apple juice doesn't have phenolic precursors, so phenol expression will be slight at most.

Yeast require certain compounds in order to make the phenolic flavors. Those compounds aren't present in apple juice. Therefore, minimal phenolic flavor.
You should get some of the fruity esters though.

What compounds? I'm glad you asked. 4-vinylguaicol, caffeic acid, and p-coumaric acid are the notable ones.

I personally don't like most Sacc phenolic flavor from Saison yeast (pepper, gross!) and I especially don't like the idea of using Belle since it forms a biofilm and is super-attenuating. Of course, none of this is an issue in cider making, only beer.
Brett phenols on the other hand are quite delicious to my taste, but again I haven't had much Brett phenolic expression in my ciders, probably again from the lack of precursors.
Cheers!

 

[Coldfrog]

The airlock is now close to a stand still. Will take a gravity reading today, and aim to stabilize before transferring to secondary. I haven't decided whether to put it into the fermentation chamber at 60 F, or... I know I won't keep it heated as I see no need to do so since fermentation will be complete. Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated.

@Coldfrog do you transfer to secondary and clear, or just go straight to keg? I plan to bottle carb this batch, though I could transfer to my corny keg and force carb as you do. How long does it take to reach your target CO2? (It will be my first time kegging if I do this)

I go straight to keg. I’m usually fully carbed in about two weeks. I don’t shake the keg as I’m usually finishing the previous keg, so I don’t need to speed it up.