I bought a 1-gallon keg to bring beer to dinners, etc. it seems to carbonate when it comes out of the keg. Almost too much foam. When I purge gas comes out. Even though the foam has stayed a bit the beer tastes basically entirely flat. It’s had weeks under pressure. Could it be the beer? Something I’m doing? I’ve heard these get metal shards under the gasket and I haven’t had a chance to check. But would that cause the beer to go so flat? The glass was also apx 10-12 F warmer than the beer so not a huge difference. I’m also guessing that the warmer glass will only eliminate some CO2 not all of it. I’m knew to kegging so I’m having a hard time trouble shooting this. My 2.5 gal keg does just fine. If it matters it’s an all-grain ancho witbier.
Beer from my keg is flat
- Thread starter Christoff
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What is the temperature of the beer in the keg? Could it have warmed up while traveling?
Both beer temp and pressure determine carbonation level.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/force-carbonation-chart/
Although what's in that glass doesn't look anything like a Witbier (it's way too dark), but the foam is dense and sticks to the glass, which is a good sign.
Both beer temp and pressure determine carbonation level.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/force-carbonation-chart/
Although what's in that glass doesn't look anything like a Witbier (it's way too dark), but the foam is dense and sticks to the glass, which is a good sign.
Too much foam on pouring can be caused by lack of flow resistance in the beer line. The flow resistance is determined by the ID, and length of the tubing. What is your beer line ID and length? This is the best beer line length calculator available.
If the beer line is warm, it can also cause foamy pours. In this case the pours tend to get better and you pour more glasses and the line cools down.
Another common cause of foamy pours is a bad "O" ring on the liquid dip tube in the keg. This usually doesn't cause the keg to leak, but CO2 can leak into the beer from the headspace when pouring.
Brew on
If the beer line is warm, it can also cause foamy pours. In this case the pours tend to get better and you pour more glasses and the line cools down.
Another common cause of foamy pours is a bad "O" ring on the liquid dip tube in the keg. This usually doesn't cause the keg to leak, but CO2 can leak into the beer from the headspace when pouring.
Brew on
Whisky River
Well-Known Member
A little more information might help narrow down the problem.
Is your 1 gallon keg a small Cornelius keg or a “Mini Keg” style? If it’s the latter is the beer already carbonated when it goes into the keg or are you carbonating in the keg? What are you using to carbonate with, a full size CO2 tank or the little cartridges?
There’s probably a simple solution so don’t give up and drink flat beer!
Is your 1 gallon keg a small Cornelius keg or a “Mini Keg” style? If it’s the latter is the beer already carbonated when it goes into the keg or are you carbonating in the keg? What are you using to carbonate with, a full size CO2 tank or the little cartridges?
There’s probably a simple solution so don’t give up and drink flat beer!
Christoff
Well-Known Member
Yeah. It had ancho chilies in secondary for almost a month. I didn’t have a chance to bottle when I wanted and it got super dark as a result. Turned out better than I expected though I like the ancho more restrained that it is. Thanks for the link!
Christoff
Well-Known Member
It’s the mini keg style. I used a mini co2 cartridge but I might try my full six tank. Or just prime it with sugar. This has been frustrating.
Because it’s the mini keg it’s just the tube inside the keg that came with it. Everything should be the same temp (~53).
Because it’s the mini keg it’s just the tube inside the keg that came with it. Everything should be the same temp (~53).
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Brewsmith
Home brewing moogerfooger
How long is the beer line?
Christoff
Well-Known Member
10” give or take
Brewsmith
Home brewing moogerfooger
The length of the line has to be balanced with the pressure and temperature, as well as considering the tubing inner diameter. If it is standard beer line, try a longer serving line. Mine are close to 6 feet
I have a few of the small kegs and had issues with foamy pours and oxidized beers.
The foamy pours were happening from the silicone dip tube not being tight on the nipple allowing CO2 to mix in with the beer. I found a smaller diameter tubing that fit more snuggly and added a zip tie to cinch up the tube a bit for extra measure.
I found some thicker lid O-rings and that seems to have fixed the oxidized beer.
The foamy pours were happening from the silicone dip tube not being tight on the nipple allowing CO2 to mix in with the beer. I found a smaller diameter tubing that fit more snuggly and added a zip tie to cinch up the tube a bit for extra measure.
I found some thicker lid O-rings and that seems to have fixed the oxidized beer.
Christoff
Well-Known Member
It’s a mini keg - party faucet set up
Brewsmith
Home brewing moogerfooger
Yes, the line should still be longer. It’s going to foam at only 10 inches long.
Christoff
Well-Known Member
perhaps this is the newbie in me. There isnt a line to a tap/faucet. Just the tubing inside the keg. I don't think there is supposed to a line for this set up
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Useful info to help,
Temperature of the beer / keg.
Pressure in PSI in the mini keg
Temperature of the beer / keg.
Pressure in PSI in the mini keg
Christoff
Well-Known Member
ambient temp was 53.5, sat at what i think was 15 psi for several weeks, after sitting at 12 for a few weeks (with the shaking after purging o2)
Christoff
Well-Known Member
that's super helpful, thank you. did you use 3/16" I.D. tubing? I think that's what came with it. It came very kinked and would not straighten out. Not sure if that plays a role in this too
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info.
So using the calculators your beer is either at 2 vols and 12 psi or 2.2 vols at 15 psi.
Temp is 53F
Beer line calculator suggests that if you were using 4mm internal line and wanted a 10 second pour for a pint then the line from keg to a tap would need to be 4 foot 4 inches at 12 psi.
It would need to be nearly 5.5 foot if at 15 psi.
Incidentally to get a witbier to the suggested 2.9 vols of carbonation you'd need 24 psi and a beer line of 8.7 feet.
Your system has no beer line length between the top of keg and tap. Hence no resistance and a foamy pour almost guaranteed. Releasing gas / purging doesn't help until the beer is nearly at atmospheric pressure, in that case the co2 from your injector forces out flat beer.
It's a paradox that the beer pours foamy and then is flat but this is because it moves from high pressure in the keg to low pressure outside easily and the gas has to rush out to equalise. A longer beer line or a flow control tap add resistance to prevent this.
If you thought of your minikeg as a large beer bottle and unscrewed the top and poured the beer it would probably pour like a beer out of a bottle and be fine.
The keg and taps changes the whole dynamic. Other factors mentioned above such as Orings and loose internal tubes may also contribute.
So using the calculators your beer is either at 2 vols and 12 psi or 2.2 vols at 15 psi.
Temp is 53F
Beer line calculator suggests that if you were using 4mm internal line and wanted a 10 second pour for a pint then the line from keg to a tap would need to be 4 foot 4 inches at 12 psi.
It would need to be nearly 5.5 foot if at 15 psi.
Incidentally to get a witbier to the suggested 2.9 vols of carbonation you'd need 24 psi and a beer line of 8.7 feet.
Your system has no beer line length between the top of keg and tap. Hence no resistance and a foamy pour almost guaranteed. Releasing gas / purging doesn't help until the beer is nearly at atmospheric pressure, in that case the co2 from your injector forces out flat beer.
It's a paradox that the beer pours foamy and then is flat but this is because it moves from high pressure in the keg to low pressure outside easily and the gas has to rush out to equalise. A longer beer line or a flow control tap add resistance to prevent this.
If you thought of your minikeg as a large beer bottle and unscrewed the top and poured the beer it would probably pour like a beer out of a bottle and be fine.
The keg and taps changes the whole dynamic. Other factors mentioned above such as Orings and loose internal tubes may also contribute.
Christoff
Well-Known Member
Thanks for this. If I am understanding this correctly, I would need to ditch the $65 lid I bought for one of those with line and the tap at the end? If this is correct, then NB is selling a set up that doesn't work and is a waste of money?
It might work better if it was colder. Pressures required for a given level of carbonation go down with temperature, and things like CO2 evolution from the beer also slow down a little bit. Pouring into a cold glass might also help. It's still not likely to be an ideal pour.
Brew on
DuncB
Well-Known Member
You probably can connect beer line between the minikeg top and the existing tap.
These minikegs seem notoriously difficult, before I set up a proper keg fridge and taps I used to use a picnic tap and about 1 foot of convenient line. I poured a lot of foam and hence flat beer by the time it was settled. Okay if you want a slight cask beer effect on an ale not so good for a saison. I did try a flow control ball lock connector but it did not do as promised although did provide some help.
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This is the last tubing I purchased so I am pretty sure this is the stuff.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DYAFITG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is the o-ring if you want to look into this
Danco 1-1/4 in. OD x 1 in. ID, Rubber, #19 O-Ring, 20 per bag, 35736W - - Amazon.com
My tops would bottom out and slowly leak, I put them in a bucket of water and could see the bubbles coming from the keg to lid connection. The new o-ring fixed that. Still get close to metal to metal but no leaks.
I used a proper length of beer line and picnic tap when I had issues with the foamy pours. The tubing had to be pushed up onto the threads of the nipple which I think was the biggest part of the problem.
One of my tops has a smaller inside diameter outlet nipple which restricts the flow, I can get by with a short beer line with that particular top.
I’m going to jump in with a dumb question. If you put beer in the keg, carbonate to the proper level using temperature and chart, then when you are ready to serve, vent the pressure and only supply enough to push it out the tap? There’s only one gallon there to be served, and it shouldn’t uncarbonate in the course of a dinner, should it?
I have essentially done this with 5 gallon kegs in my cooler. It’s one of my safety features to keep from emptying a keg or CO₂ tank. After proper carbonation, I set my pressure lower, and shut off the inline valve. After each pour, I open the valve a few seconds an repressurize the keg; no fast, foamy pours. Sure, it’s not as elegant as just pulling a tap handle, and a little more tedious, but it works for me. I will concede that perhaps I am not as sensitive to carbonation levels as some folks might be. Of course, it is possible to up the carbonation level if necessary by resetting CO₂ pressure by the chart and giving it a little time.
Any thoughts?
I have essentially done this with 5 gallon kegs in my cooler. It’s one of my safety features to keep from emptying a keg or CO₂ tank. After proper carbonation, I set my pressure lower, and shut off the inline valve. After each pour, I open the valve a few seconds an repressurize the keg; no fast, foamy pours. Sure, it’s not as elegant as just pulling a tap handle, and a little more tedious, but it works for me. I will concede that perhaps I am not as sensitive to carbonation levels as some folks might be. Of course, it is possible to up the carbonation level if necessary by resetting CO₂ pressure by the chart and giving it a little time.
Any thoughts?
Also, I should have noted that I use very short-lined party taps, (maybe 10”). If I don’t have all that pressure pushing my pour, (since I don’t turn the pressure on until after I pour), the pressure is actually dropping ever so slightly as I pour. I don’t have foaming problems, but can still get a decent head on my beer. Again, not elegant, but works for me, and no complaints from the wife.
Christoff
Well-Known Member
I serve at about 10 psi. I generally turn off the co2 when not in use. I've tried a few ways (keeping CO2 up, turning it off, reducing it for serving after carbonation) but for some reason this keg is not holding pressure, at least not with the current set up. I don't have any problem with my keg in my keezer so I am guessing I'm not a total idiot. I'm chalking this one up to possibly a slow leak causing CO2 to leak out and not enter the beer. It's literally mostly flat within minutes, even 30 seconds possibly. NB gave me a ball lock lid so I am going to try that.
I hope you didn’t think I thought you were an idiot; I was just a bit puzzled. The slow leak sounds like a possible culprit there. Hope your new head does the trick.
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Looks like the faucet's on the keg, so "beer line length" is zero.
53F will cause foaming unless you release all pressure as @Closet Fermenter suggests.
Flat beer in glass is exactly what you get when it foams coming from keg as all carbonation releases from liquid making foam leaving liquid flat.
The only solution I see is put that sucker in a bucket of ice, which will make pouring from it......interesting. Getting it really cold, at 10-15psi after filling, then wrapping with relfectrix or neoprene, and you might do ok.
53F will cause foaming unless you release all pressure as @Closet Fermenter suggests.
Flat beer in glass is exactly what you get when it foams coming from keg as all carbonation releases from liquid making foam leaving liquid flat.
The only solution I see is put that sucker in a bucket of ice, which will make pouring from it......interesting. Getting it really cold, at 10-15psi after filling, then wrapping with relfectrix or neoprene, and you might do ok.
That^ is the main problem why your beer is flat when poured.
It takes time (hours, days, depending on the method used) for beer (or any liquid) to dissolve CO2 (and thus becoming carbonated), even under pressure. Without pressure it can't dissolve much CO2, resulting in flat beer.
Then temperature is important too. Beer at lower temps can hold much more dissolved CO2 than at higher temps. So the keg should be kept cold when carbonating, stored for later use, and while dispensing.
Is the rubber o-ring on the regular lid any different than the one from your special tap lid?
Are you using keglube on the o-rings? How tight do you screw that lid on?
You can probably see if there's a leak around the lid when spraying that area with starsan or submerging the keg in a bucket or tub with water.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
@Christoff
"but for some reason this keg is not holding pressure"
You've also said Sure beer is well carbed and you say keg pressure is 12 psi.
I understood from your earlier statement that the keg started at 15 psi and fell to 12 over a long time having been carbing for weeks.
Your Beer is only flat after foam settles.
You don't have a leak from the keg but a too rapid leak of gas out of the beer that is too carbed for your dispensing method.
ie too warm for pressure or too short a line.
If your beer was flat in the keg it wouldn't pour foam and then be flat, I suppose unless you had a stout spout on your keg.
You don't have one of these just a perlick type tap.
"but for some reason this keg is not holding pressure"
You've also said Sure beer is well carbed and you say keg pressure is 12 psi.
I understood from your earlier statement that the keg started at 15 psi and fell to 12 over a long time having been carbing for weeks.
Your Beer is only flat after foam settles.
You don't have a leak from the keg but a too rapid leak of gas out of the beer that is too carbed for your dispensing method.
ie too warm for pressure or too short a line.
If your beer was flat in the keg it wouldn't pour foam and then be flat, I suppose unless you had a stout spout on your keg.
You don't have one of these just a perlick type tap.
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Christoff
Well-Known Member
Good point. I’m pretty new and trying to figure this all out. After reading the answers, I figured the co2 wasnt dissolving into the beer. I do have tap on it but it’s not perlick. Just the brass and chrome ones from the kit that NB sells with the keg. I really don’t have a clue what is happening or how to stop it really. My beer isn’t super cold or super. It was very cold when I was carbonating it each time but one. I read somewhere to dry it at room temp. Didn’t work either. I’ve carbonated it with the recommended pressure from palmer’s book and a few online videos. Can’t get it to work. I don’t want a ton of like because it defeats the purpose. I have a Keezer. I guess assuming the keg’s pieces that are sold with it should work. I’ve had plenty of draft beer at bars from warm glasses, and my Keezer beer gets poured into the same glasses. Just the other day I followed up a glass of wit with my Honey rye. The honey rye was just fine. It’s too big to fit in my fridge so I only put beer in there that I don’t mind in the low 50’s or the darker beers that should be a bit warmer. But if I can’t serve beer between 50-60 F then it really defeats the purpose. Those are mostly the only beers I drink this time of the year. I definitely appreciate the help. And I’ll probably try a few of these tips on here but not optimistic it’ll fix it
Christoff
Well-Known Member
No keg lube though I have been meaning to get some. It’s brand new so figured I had some time.
I totally forgot about the leak test. I do that for all my connections but for some reason hasn’t occurred to me for the mini keg.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
I'm confused can we have a reset here please a few questions to answer at a time. Once we are sure of the problem we will have a diagnosis and can make a cure for you and your keg of beer.
A) Do you put just less than one gallon of beer uncarbonated into the minikeg?
B) Then carbonate in a fridge using the regulator seen in your photos and CO2 from the little bulb?
Standing by.
A) Do you put just less than one gallon of beer uncarbonated into the minikeg?
B) Then carbonate in a fridge using the regulator seen in your photos and CO2 from the little bulb?
Standing by.
Christoff
Well-Known Member
I’ve only filled it twice. Both times it was a full gallon give or take an ounce or two.
I use the set up in the pic and put it in fridge temps (mini bar fridge or my very cold garage). Roughly 35-38 F. I have used only the pieces they provide so the tap, regulator and Co2 in the pic. As well as the 10” internal dip(?) tubing that came curled. Once it appears to have carbonated, put it in my back room at 50-55 depending on the outside temp. I’ve tried turning off the CO2 until I serve. I’ve kept it on at the prescribed psi and turn it down to serving pressure. After the first time it didn’t take, I tried again at warmer temps (as per the online info I found). Didn’t work and tried a third time, which prompted this thread.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Thanks for info.
So one bulb are they 8g of CO2 size per gallon? To carbonate at 38 F approximately.
So one bulb are they 8g of CO2 size per gallon? To carbonate at 38 F approximately.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Something like 18 gramme CO2 per gallon in beer at 2.5 vols
A full minikeg will have little headspace so difficult to get gas exchange and slow.
Shaking keg to accelerate this must only be done with a non return ball lock or gas side nrvalve otherwise you risk liquid getting into your regulator.
So more than 2 bulb to carbonate and more to serve.
This could explain why the beer is truly flat but not if you pour foam and it settles flat.
@doug293cz will correct my maths / approximation with a red pen.
I feel my numbers don't account for CO2 in beer at end of ferment.
A full minikeg will have little headspace so difficult to get gas exchange and slow.
Shaking keg to accelerate this must only be done with a non return ball lock or gas side nrvalve otherwise you risk liquid getting into your regulator.
So more than 2 bulb to carbonate and more to serve.
This could explain why the beer is truly flat but not if you pour foam and it settles flat.
@doug293cz will correct my maths / approximation with a red pen.
I feel my numbers don't account for CO2 in beer at end of ferment.
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Christoff
Well-Known Member
The bulb is 74 g
1 volume is 1.977 g/L of CO2, and 1 gal is 3.7854 L, so 1 gal @ 2.5 volumes would have 3.7854 * 1.977 * 2.5 = 18.7 g of dissolved CO2. Your estimate was pretty close.
Beer at the end of a fermentation @ 65°F will contain about 0.88 volumes of carbonation, so to carb to 2.5 volumes you need to add 1.62 volumes. That would be 3.7854 * 1.977 * 1.62 = 12.1 g CO2 additional CO2 required for carbonation.
The amount to serve will depend on serving pressure and temperature. To push 1 gal at 2.5 volumes and 40°F (4.44°C) would require a pressure of 12.2 psi, and use 3.7854 * 1.977 * ((14.7 + 12.2) / 14.7) * 273.15 / 277.59 = 13.5 g. For 1 gal at 2.5 volumes and 53°F (11.67°C) would require a pressure of 19.3 psi, and use 3.7854 * 1.977 * ((14.7 + 19.3) / 14.7) * 273.15 / 284.82 = 16.6 g.
Carbonating and serving @ 53°F will require 12.1 + 16.6 = 28.7 g of CO2. You will need a little CO2 for the headspace as well.
Brew on
Christoff
Well-Known Member
I’m curious about this headspace situation. The bulbs are big enough but I wonder if I filled it too much. This is a good possibility at first however I have since gradually drank the beer over the last couple months so by the time I got to the point of 20 psi, it was at least half empty. However I may not have shaken it as much given I’m irritated with this thing.
If you use a pressure regulator, you can't "overfill" the headspace. That's the purpose of the regulator.
Brew on
Christoff
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I meant with beer. And if I put too much beer in that reduces headspace. If it requires a certain amount of headspace to carbonate properly this could be part of it, though not all, I assume.If you use a pressure regulator, you can't "overfill" the headspace. That's the purpose of the regulator.
Brew on
