frozen kegs...pressure related?

[odie]

well had my kegerator freeze up trying to tap some new kegs...was having all sorts of issues trying to pour beers and was thinking poppet problems or QD issues...pulled the kegs and they are basically frozen slushy...

my kegerator is a 1947 Westinghouse. No controller, I just set is on the minimum/warmest setting and never really had any problems. It runs in the low 30s to high 20s.

I'm wondering if I had either too little or too much initial carbonation/pressure and when I pull the tap, the pressure drop cause a flash freeze?

Too little pressure raises the freezing point so possibly the beer was starting to freeze up in the keg just sitting there.

Or too much pressure the freezing point is lower than the kegerator temps but the pressure release is then greater when you pour causing a higher chance of a "flash freeze"?

I'm still exploring but I'm thinking either the kegs were starting to freeze from too little carbonation while just sitting OR they where liquid but a little over carbed and flash froze when I pulled the tap because the pressure drop was much more than normal.

A digital controller would probably solve it but not really crazy about a wire going under the door gasket. Haven't found a place to sneak a wire thru the back yet.

 

[Broken Crow]

Given your recent thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ffects-on-serving-temps.735279/#post-10435904 Haven't you moved your temp probe? I stand by my recommendation for a circulation fan.
Did this: "The coldest spot is probably at the top of the kegs right under the iceberg." imply ice build-up? ...would mounting a digital controller in the door be an option?

 

[odie]

Given your recent thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ffects-on-serving-temps.735279/#post-10435904 Haven't you moved your temp probe? I stand by my recommendation for a circulation fan.
Did this: "The coldest spot is probably at the top of the kegs right under the iceberg." imply ice build-up? ...would mounting a digital controller in the door be an option?

this is a different kegerator system...upright vintage refrigerator, not a chest feezer.

 

[shoengine]

It would be nice to know what temperature the fridge was at the time of slushy beer.

 

[sibelman]

A digital controller would probably solve it but not really crazy about a wire going under the door gasket. Haven't found a place to sneak a wire thru the back yet.

Though wire under door gasket is not ideal, a reasonably thin wire is not a big deal, and way better than accidentally destroying your freezerator drilling a hole.

 

[Broken Crow]

It runs in the low 30s to high 20s.

That's a bit of a wide range BUT;

never really had any problems.

so....
hmmm,

It would be nice to know what temperature the fridge was at the time of slushy beer.

is where my head is going too.
Personally I'd never let my beer drop below freezing, but since it appears you've done so before without problems; Has anything other than the possible carb/pressure level changed? Could it be this specific recipe and you've actually been pouring through slush up till now?
You've given us a real head scratcher..Thanks! I should come clean here though: I'm struggling to solve it as I absolutely adore vintage domestic-made refridgerators of that bygone era when appliances were respectably built with decent spec-margins, and I was hoping I could bait you into posting a pic of it for my vicarious pleasure and envy.

[On a side note: If ever, the R-12 runs low; find yourself a certified place that will purge/evacuate and replace with R-600a...a drop-in replacement for R-12 which results in a 30% improvement in thermal transfer, hence shorter compressor cycles]

 

[odie]

It would be nice to know what temperature the fridge was at the time of slushy beer.

I thing the lowest I saw was 26. That was the probe hanging in the open air low in the refrigerator. But I think initially miss dialed in the thermostat. I had defrosted and completely took apart the lines from faucet to QD to deep clean. I set it back at "mid point" since I didn't pay attention to where it was before.
I think before it was minimum setting, just above "off" before since I never froze a keg before. Occasionally I'd get a frozen line if it was touching the ice box part. But never froze a keg.

I think the mid point and it sitting like that a good week before tapping it, well the keg froze or slushy at least and the sudden drop in pressure caused a flash freeze.

Took it all back apart, defrosted again and set to bare minimum on the thermostat. will see what happens.

I put the probe in a glass of water in the bottom so will watch how low the liquid temp goes.

 

[odie]

Though wire under door gasket is not ideal, a reasonably thin wire is not a big deal, and way better than accidentally destroying your freezerator drilling a hole.

it's old school...condensor lines outside and evap is the ice box at the top. thought about going thru the hole below the light in the back that is for a shelf...

 

[odie]

That's a bit of a wide range BUT;

so....
hmmm,

is where my head is going too.
Personally I'd never let my beer drop below freezing, but since it appears you've done so before without problems; Has anything other than the possible carb/pressure level changed? Could it be this specific recipe and you've actually been pouring through slush up till now?
You've given us a real head scratcher..Thanks! I should come clean here though: I'm struggling to solve it as I absolutely adore vintage domestic-made refridgerators of that bygone era when appliances were respectably built with decent spec-margins, and I was hoping I could bait you into posting a pic of it for my vicarious pleasure and envy.

[On a side note: If ever, the R-12 runs low; find yourself a certified place that will purge/evacuate and replace with R-600a...a drop-in replacement for R-12 which results in a 30% improvement in thermal transfer, hence shorter compressor cycles]

been running without a digital controller for years...with these same recipes on tap and never any keg freezing issues...most beer freezes in the mid 20's due to alcohol and the keg pressure should drop that freeze point a few extra degrees on top of that.

I'm really hoping I just "over set" the dial thermostat when I finished the last defrost and put it all back together. So have it all back together again after thawing the kegs and will see what happens with the dial backed off. Hopefully it stays just above 30'

it's 1947 and original freon and compressor so no plans to ever change that.

 

[beren]

Most beer freezes at about 28°F

 

[odie]

Most beer freezes at about 28°F

I read that on google...I figure higher ABV might freeze a little lower...but not much.

Anyway...the bottle of water in the fridge is now down to 37'...with the thermostat dial on the minimum setting.

 

[odie]

Thanks! I should come clean here though: I'm struggling to solve it as I absolutely adore vintage domestic-made refrigerators of that bygone era when appliances were respectably built with decent spec-margins, and I was hoping I could bait you into posting a pic of it for my vicarious pleasure and envy.

gratuitous fridge pics for Broken Crow...

 

[day_trippr]

Crime scene

 

[Broken Crow]

gratuitous fridge pics for Broken Crow...

View attachment 868281View attachment 868282View attachment 868284

Thanks for the vintage fridge porn! I love those things!
(The only reason I mentioned the R-600 compatibility is in the event you ever have an issue, but mostly for the sake of others who might search the internet and land here looking for a way to fix their glorious old kegerator that sprung a leak...they are always fixable)

 

[mac_1103]

Love the patina on that baby, but where are you going to find a matching drip tray?

 

[odie]

Crime scene

explain...

 

[odie]

Love the patina on that baby, but where are you going to find a matching drip tray?

I toss a towel on the tile floor...easy and goes in the wash after a session

 

[mac_1103]

But does the towel have matching rust stains?

 

[odie]

But does the towel have matching rust stains?

no rust stains...that's blood...

the fridge came out of a slaughterhouse in Raymondville.

 

[lumpher]

where are you going to find a matching drip tray?

Crime scene

Just a suggestion for where to look for a matching drip tray... Probably find a matching clean-up towel there too

 

[Broken Crow]

the fridge came out of a slaughterhouse in Raymondville.

I love it even more now!

 

[odie]

I love it even more now!

The white 1946 GE came out of a deer camp in Victoria. It's my hops and yeast storage.

also original freon and compressor.

 

[beren]

I read that on google...I figure higher ABV might freeze a little lower...but not much.

Anyway...the bottle of water in the fridge is now down to 37'...with the thermostat dial on the minimum setting.


View attachment 868280View attachment 868285

Put a small fan in there, see what happens. Even my kegerator gets like a 10° temp gradient without a fan.

 

[Willy]

Given your recent thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ffects-on-serving-temps.735279/#post-10435904 Haven't you moved your temp probe? I stand by my recommendation for a circulation fan.
Did this: "The coldest spot is probably at the top of the kegs right under the iceberg." imply ice build-up? ...would mounting a digital controller in the door be an option?

Agree. Circulation fan might solve it.

 

[odie]

not really much room for a fan. Anyway...after several days of slowly dropping...it appears to have stabilized at 30' (probe in water bottle in the bottom).

Thermostat turned on just enough to get the compressor to kick on. Lowest/warmest setting.

 

[Yesfan]

I think even a small pc fan would do some good. Surely you can make space for that.

 

[odie]

spoke too soon...now at 27'...

beer freezes at 28 according to google...

was really hoping to avoid a digital controller...I like simple...

 

[doug293cz]

the sudden drop in pressure caused a flash freeze.

How do you get a sudden drop in pressure when pulling the tap if the keg is hooked up to the CO2 supply? The pressure drop will be barely detectable unless you have a severely flow restricted CO2 supply. And even if you did get a sudden drop in pressure, the cooling wouldn't remove enough heat to overcome the latent heat of fusion that must be removed from the beer in order for it to actually freeze.

The latent heat of fusion of water is 144 BTU/lb. 1 BTU is the amount of heat required to raise the temp of 1 lb of water 1°F. So to turn liquid beer into frozen beer (at whatever the freezing point actually is) is the same amount of heat that would raise the temp of that beer by 144°F. Somewhat less heat would need to be removed to only freeze a portion of the beer to get a "slushy."

Brew on

 

[odie]

How do you get a sudden drop in pressure when pulling the tap if the keg is hooked up to the CO2 supply? The pressure drop will be barely detectable unless you have a severely flow restricted CO2 supply. And even if you did get a sudden drop in pressure, the cooling wouldn't remove enough heat to overcome the latent heat of fusion that must be removed from the beer in order for it to actually freeze.

The latent heat of fusion of water is 144 BTU/lb. 1 BTU is the amount of heat required to raise the temp of 1 lb of water 1°F. So to turn liquid beer into frozen beer (at whatever the freezing point actually is) is the same amount of heat that would raise the temp of that beer by 144°F. Somewhat less heat would need to be removed to only freeze a portion of the beer to get a "slushy."

Brew on

Was just a thought. I've had very cold bottles of beer that froze...well turned slushy, when I popped the top...

When I pull the tap, I can sometimes see the CO2 gauge drop. not much but still. I use 1/4" on the CO2 side, not 5/16. minimal but still smaller than typical.

at 27 degrees I'm on the edge of frozen beer...It's nice that my ancient fridge is so strong...but will have to do a controller to raise it a few points.

 

[beren]

Maybe something like this blower fan low to keep the temp more constant? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CG1S1HGC

I mean, a refrigerator should have temperatures in the low to mid 40s, not upper 20s and lower 30s anyway. Bet the temp probe/thermostat is in need of some love anyway.