Beer Cellar thread - real cellars, closet cellars, fridge cellars, freezer cellars, wine coolers

[LukeAleTime]

I'm like 99% certain that the only reason we talk about this is because that's the way it's always been done, so people try to justify it. But maybe I'm overly cynical.

I agree 100% on this.

People love an unproven "fact" in beer. Glassware, homebrew techniques etc etc. So much hearsay and little evidence.

 

[lopejuice1]

Lambic magic only works horizontally. I thought everyone knew this

 

[oldp0rt]

Lambic magic only works horizontally. I thought everyone knew this

and you must only pick them up during a full moon.

 

[ridglens]

I think it's just more efficient to stack them that way... you don't need boxes or anything.

 

[duketheredeemer]

Except that nobody still uses corks that can dry out.

I'm not sure how the cork would dry out in one orientation over the other. The atmosphere inside the bottle is already at 100% humidity. Seems to me that the environment outside the bottle would have a much greater effect on the dryness of the cork.

 

[ghawk162002]

I agree 100% on this.

People love an unproven "fact" in beer. Glassware, homebrew techniques etc etc. So much hearsay and little evidence.

Yes....but why believe a bunch of keyboard beer drinkers over a guy that is a 4th generation brewer at one of the best breweries in the world? Oh yes...the intrawebs. Everyone knows more than someone else <rolls eyes> But...to each their own.

 

[stupac2]

I'm not sure how the cork would dry out in one orientation over the other. The atmosphere inside the bottle is already at 100% humidity. Seems to me that the environment outside the bottle would have a much greater effect on the dryness of the cork.

That's what I've heard before too, but I'm not sure why that wouldn't be true of wine too. So I figure either the whole "cork drying out" thing is totally wrong even for wine or there's something else going on.

Yes....but why believe a bunch of keyboard beer drinkers over a guy that is a 4th generation brewer at one of the best breweries in the world? Oh yes...the intrawebs. Everyone knows more than someone else <rolls eyes> But...to each their own.

Being able to brew good beer doesn't make you an expert on everything involved with beer.

 

[jedwards]

I'm not sure how the cork would dry out in one orientation over the other. The atmosphere inside the bottle is already at 100% humidity. Seems to me that the environment outside the bottle would have a much greater effect on the dryness of the cork.

For wine, at least, vapor is constantly transitioning the cork (this is why small but regular temp variations are bad for wine -- they change the pressure in the bottle, which pushes & pulls vapor, and measurably increases ullage even over relatively short aging timelines). Having liquid in contact with the cork both maximizes the cork volume by saturation (to keep a better liquid seal) and reduces vapor transfer since gases have to transition the fluid.

For older Cantillon, however, it's not about a humid environment -- the weird, low-quality corks they use are literally soaked with beer if it's horizontally oriented. If there weren't caps on those bottles, beer would pour out the end.

 

[duketheredeemer]

For wine, at least, vapor is constantly transitioning the cork.

I'm sure this is technically true, but I actually don't think this has much bearing on our discussion. Changes in temperature do indeed increase the ullage, but I suspect this is due to bulk transport rather than diffusion, and bulk transport largely requires the pressure differential. Diffusion will simply flow in the direction of the gradient in the partial pressures, which for a constant temperature is proportional to the relative humidity on each side of the cork (which seems reasonable to assume that any temperature changes under most cellaring conditions will also have a small enough gradient in both time and space that the temperature in the bottle and outside it can be assumed to be the same). Now, since there are many bottles that are hundreds of years old and haven't lost all their contents, it would seem that the diffusion rate must be tiny. It's almost certainly real and measurable, but on the timescales we're interested in, I don't think it will make any difference.

Having liquid in contact with the cork both maximizes the cork volume by saturation (to keep a better liquid seal) and reduces vapor transfer since gases have to transition the fluid.

Again, the humidity in the bottle is 100%. Another way of thinking about what 100% humidity means is that the rate at which water molecules are leaving the surfaces is equal to the rate at which they are condensing back upon them (to a good approximation, but surface interactions exist). Once the cork is wet it cannot dry out in these conditions, save for loss to the external environment, which is definitely very low, which we again know thanks to the existence of old-ass wine bottles. There may be some capillary action effects, but once these channels are wet they're not getting any dryer if the bottle is stood up. I suspect much of the loss that's attributed to dryness instead comes about from the cork simply ageing and falling apart, irrespective of the conditions in the bottle, allowing for quicker diffusion or even bulk transport through the neck of the bottle.

Stacking bottles on their sides is almost always the most space-efficient way to stack them. I think most of the lore that surrounds doing so now came about because everyone already did it and people assumed there needed to be another reason for doing so.

All that said, since we know stacking them on their sides works well for ageing and is an efficient use of space, I see no reason not to stack them on their sides in the absence of hard evidence that there is a better way. I'm just very skeptical of the traditional reasons people list for that method of stacking.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I'm sure this is technically true, but I actually don't think this has much bearing on our discussion. Changes in temperature do indeed increase the ullage, but I suspect this is due to bulk transport rather than diffusion, and bulk transport largely requires the pressure differential. Diffusion will simply flow in the direction of the gradient in the partial pressures, which for a constant temperature is proportional to the relative humidity on each side of the cork (which seems reasonable to assume that any temperature changes under most cellaring conditions will also have a small enough gradient in both time and space that the temperature in the bottle and outside it can be assumed to be the same). Now, since there are many bottles that are hundreds of years old and haven't lost all their contents, it would seem that the diffusion rate must be tiny. It's almost certainly real and measurable, but on the timescales we're interested in, I don't think it will make any difference.



Again, the humidity in the bottle is 100%. Another way of thinking about what 100% humidity means is that the rate at which water molecules are leaving the surfaces is equal to the rate at which they are condensing back upon them (to a good approximation, but surface interactions exist). Once the cork is wet it cannot dry out in these conditions, save for loss to the external environment, which is definitely very low, which we again know thanks to the existence of old-ass wine bottles. There may be some capillary action effects, but once these channels are wet they're not getting any dryer if the bottle is stood up. I suspect much of the loss that's attributed to dryness instead comes about from the cork simply ageing and falling apart, irrespective of the conditions in the bottle, allowing for quicker diffusion or even bulk transport through the neck of the bottle.

Stacking bottles on their sides is almost always the most space-efficient way to stack them. I think most of the lore that surrounds doing so now came about because everyone already did it and people assumed there needed to be another reason for doing so.

All that said, since we know stacking them on their sides works well for ageing and is an efficient use of space, I see no reason not to stack them on their sides in the absence of hard evidence that there is a better way. I'm just very skeptical of the traditional reasons people list for that method of stacking.

#science

 

[jedwards]

Based on your tone, I'm guessing there's not much a point in trying to have a discussion with you regarding the specific (well-studied) processes in play. I will simply say that the majority of wines of extreme age have been topped up by the winemaker one or more times in their life, and that this is relatively basic knowledge about vintage wine.

The remainder of my post is experiential advice regarding the storage and consumption of Cantillon from the early 90s, and reasoning about those specific bottles based on intellectual abstractions is useless at best. #AssumeASphericalCork

 

[duketheredeemer]

I will simply say that the majority of wines of extreme age have been topped up by the winemaker one or more times in their life, and that this is relatively basic knowledge about vintage wine.

I am aware. Most need new corks as well. I'm just very skeptical that this has to do with the bottles being stood up versus being laid on their sides. To my knowledge, almost all are laid on their sides for pretty much the entire ageing process, so as of yet I haven't seen any evidence that doing so is better than standing them up. Laying them down clearly works, but saying it's because the cork dries out less in that orientation smells like received knowledge to me.

I suspect you're right about the Cantillons, though I too have no more than anecdotal evidence. I don't know if this is due to the corks being ****** or not, though I suspect it is. It's also possible that long-term fermentation and decomposition products are changing the pressure in the bottle over time, and that's causing the cork seal to break down.

I'm aggressive about science. Apologies if that was off-putting, and feel free to continue the discussion should you want.

 

[jedwards]

I'm aggressive about science. Apologies if that was off-putting, and feel free to continue the discussion should you want.

I get where you're coming from, but you're diving into a well-studied (if also myth-ridden) field. Start with a basic review of the literature (I'm on my way out and don't have time to provide right now, but there are literally entire journals devoted to preservation and storage of wine), but the evidence for wine of the benefits of horizontal storage long-term is clear and unambiguous as regards ullage, and sensory and chemical analysis. This is why it's an interesting question for beer, because beer generally has such different closures that transferring knowledge (e.g. "large bottles age better") from the wine world to the beer world is often a mistake unless the specific mechanisms are well-understood, which is particularly difficult in older beer as regards their closures because of the lack of uniform quality in corks and crown caps up until the late 90s/early 2000s. It's precisely because we're trying to avoid received knowledge from the wine world that we're asking these questions.

 

[duketheredeemer]

I get where you're coming from, but you're diving into a well-studied (if also myth-ridden) field. Start with a basic review of the literature (I'm on my way out and don't have time to provide right now, but there are literally entire journals devoted to preservation and storage of wine), but the evidence for wine of the benefits of horizontal storage long-term is clear and unambiguous as regards ullage, and sensory and chemical analysis.

I've actually already done so, and the results are, as far as I can tell, still inconclusive. Some studies find considerable positive effect for horizontal storage, some find none (of course, most of these are over comparatively short timescales, so I could be wrong over very long timescales). My chemistry background has more to do with fuel analysis (though I have done some food assays professionally) so what experience I have with wine/beer storage is almost entirely due to non-professional interest, so I might be mis-reading the literature. I think the question is still fairly open, and the mechanisms aren't yet well understood -- in fact, we've kind of glossed over another possible difference: even if the the interactions between water and the cork is the same for both orientations, there's a lot more than water in wine/beer, so I yield the only statement I'm actually willing to defend is that orientation likely doesn't affect cork hydration directly.

If you wish to expand upon the literature further when you have time, I'd read it, as I do have an interest in the topic.

This is why it's an interesting question for beer, because beer generally has such different closures that transferring knowledge (e.g. "large bottles age better") from the wine world to the beer world is often a mistake unless the specific mechanisms are well-understood, which is particularly difficult in older beer as regards their closures because of the lack of uniform quality in corks and crown caps up until the late 90s/early 2000s. It's precisely because we're trying to avoid received knowledge from the wine world that we're asking these questions.

100% with you here. There are some similarities between wine and beer, but there are also so many differences it's hard to know. I've seen a little literature on beer storage, but most of it had to do with setting a baseline for the properties of beer over time than examining things like orientation or bottle size.

 

[stupac2]

Guys, I can only get so turned on.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Guys, I can only get so turned on.

stupac2 be like

 

[brian4beer]

Amazing intellectual debate/discussion above. Thanks for taking the time to type the back-and-forth duketheredeemer and jedwards . Very interesting read!

 

[cosmicevan]

Amazing intellectual debate/discussion above. Thanks for taking the time to type the back-and-forth duketheredeemer and jedwards . Very interesting read!

i'm still confused on who won

 

[duketheredeemer]

i'm still confused on who won

I'm not sure it's the kind of discussion that has a winner and a looser. jedwards brought up a bunch of good points. Two important ones from my perspective were:

1. That we need to be really cautious extrapolating what we know about wine to beer, and
2. that the quality of wine's dependence on its orientation during ageing is a complex thing and that includes many more factors than just the cork drying out.

With that in mind, I had to both clarify and limit my original statement, though I do still stand by it.

 

[cosmicevan]

I'm not sure it's the kind of discussion that has a winner and a looser. jedwards brought up a bunch of good points. Two important ones from my perspective were:

1. That we need to be really cautious extrapolating what we know about wine to beer, and
2. that the quality of wine's dependence on its orientation during ageing is a complex thing and that includes many more factors than just the cork drying out.

With that in mind, I had to both clarify and limit my original statement, though I do still stand by it.

so then jedwards?

 

[SeaWatchman]

so then jedwards?

I'm not sure it's the kind of discussion that has a winner and a loser.

 

[cosmicevan]

I'm not sure it's the kind of discussion that has a winner and a loser.

that's loser talk.

 

[duketheredeemer]

that's loser talk.

Please be gentle when touching my balls. It's my first day on the internet.

 

[mattvandyk]

At first glance that doesn't strike me as being right, is the argument that if the lees are spread out along the whole edge they'll be healthier than lumped up at the bottom? I suppose that could be true (you'd basically need to be a microbiologist to know for sure), but anything that I can think of to cause that (mostly nutrient availability) wouldn't be affected much. This is one of the few arguments in this debate that I don't think you can immediately dismiss, but it strikes me as being minor if it does matter.

I'm like 99% certain that the only reason we talk about this is because that's the way it's always been done, so people try to justify it. But maybe I'm overly cynical.

Whatever floats your boat!

Isn't is for the same reason you keep wine horizontal? Keep the cork wet and all that?

 

[stupac2]

Isn't is for the same reason you keep wine horizontal? Keep the cork wet and all that?

Did you read the discussion on the last page? ****'s complicated man.

 

[mattvandyk]

Did you read the discussion on the last page? ****'s complicated man.

I did...after I posted. Like an idiot.

 

[hotmetal]

 

[Jobu1]

 

[SeaWatchman]

The stupidest.

 

[LukeAleTime]

I'm not sure I get it