Beer Belly

[TyTanium]

What is there to debunk about the basic premise of "calories in/calories out".

Unless you can work out a way that humans can violate the laws of conservation of energy then there is no way that the simple statement that if you consume more usable energy than you use you will gain weight can be considered untrue.

I think the point is that calories in & calories out are not independent variables. They each affect the other. Therefore the type of calories you put it affects the calories out. So it's not just about caloric restriction, it's about understanding what causes the "calories out", i.e., metabolism, energy burn, to increase, given a certain level of inputs

 

[TheSlash]

I think the point is that calories in & calories out are not independent variables. They each affect the other. Therefore the type of calories you put it affects the calories out. So it's not just about caloric restriction, it's about understanding what causes the "calories out", i.e., metabolism, energy burn, to increase, given a certain level of inputs

A calorie is a unit of energy, there are no TYPES of calories.

 

[TyTanium]

You know what I meant. Ok, source of calories instead of type. Fat vs carb and impact on metabolism in an isocaloric setting. I read your link that claims to debunk that claim, and frankly, I'm skeptical, but I will read the studies on my own and form my own conclusions.

 

[CGVT]

It is all about insulin production. Excess insulin cases the body to store fat. Excess carbs(sugars) cause insulin spikes and cause the body to store the sugars as fat.

Read Why we get Fat by Gary Taubes.

 

[TheSlash]

It is all about insulin production. Excess insulin cases the body to store fat. Excess carbs(sugars) cause insulin spikes and cause the body to store the sugars as fat.

Read Why we get Fat by Gary Taubes.

Still comes down to either you burned the calories or you didn't.

 

[TheSlash]

Here is your Gary Taubes vs Martin Berkam. Quit trying to make things complex and just count your calories. Unless you have a medical condition it works perfectly fine.

 

[xjmox14x]

Most NFL linebackers ARE obese.

If you're a professional bodybuilder, then BMI doesn't really work for you, and you can ignore it.

Are you a professional bodybuilder? No? Then maybe you should put down the fork and go for a walk.

Obese: Having excessive body fat; excessively overweight.

Silly me


Yes, the BMI index is a GROSSLY simplistic measurement for an individual who has little to no fitness level. However, even for people who are not athletes and/or have minimal fitness training, it is not always accurate. It's almost akin to the airlock debate. Yes, it's bubbling, but that's all it tells you. It doesn't tell you whether fermentation is done, if it has even started, why it's bubbling, what the specific gravity is, etc. It tells you that it's bubbling. Same thing with the BMI index. It does not tell you your body fat percentage, your fitness level, your bone structure and density, your heart strength, or your overall health. It gives you a ratio involving solely your height and your weight. If you are interested in knowing your height/weight ratio for statistical purposes, then great. For anything else, it is utterly useless.

I say this, and it really gets to me, because sure, the definition of "obese" in medical terms is having a BMI greater than 30. But all that tells you is that YOUR BMI IS GREATER THAN 30. It gives you, literally, zero indication of one's health... which is ironic considering that is the whole down and dirty basis of the system to begin with. When people hear "obese", they think of the giant fat person waiting in line at the buffet or at Walmart. You hear about the "obesity epidemic" being used hand in hand with America being fat. It's entirely misleading is my point.

 

[nukebrewer]

Calories in vs. calories out only applies to weight, but most people want to lose fat. That's why you have to consider the source of calories. If you take in mostly carbs you wont lose nearly as much fat as if you feed your body enough protein to maintain or increase your lean muscle mass. Additionally, healthy fats like CLA help to burn additional fat. The science isn't clear on why, but there is known to be a strong correlation between CLA intake and fat loss. Unlike a lot of supplements, the studies done on CLA were conducted using serving sizes that would be practical for the average person to consume.

 

[captwalt]

a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. beer has them. If you want to lose a beer belly consume less calories. people assume that by not eating carbs they will lose wieght but that only works because it is difficult to make up that amount of calories with meat. fat you store simply comes from excess calories you have eaten. if you eat more calories than you use your body stores them as fat. In my experience excersise is a tricky method of losing wieght. If you want to lose wieght watch what you eat, if you want to get fit go to the gym

 

[kombat]

[BMI] does not tell you your body fat percentage, your fitness level, your bone structure and density, your heart strength, or your overall health. [...] I say this, and it really gets to me, because sure, the definition of "obese" in medical terms is having a BMI greater than 30. But all that tells you is that YOUR BMI IS GREATER THAN 30. It gives you, literally, zero indication of one's health.

I disagree. If your BMI is over 30, that tells me that you are carrying an excessive amount of hydrated body fat. It tells me (and insurance companies) that you are at an elevated risk for diabetes, liver diseases, cardiovascular diseases, respiratory diseases, sleep apnea, joint problems, and a host of other ailments.

Show me a healthy/fit person with a BMI over 30.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I get so sick and tired of watching people trot out the same, lame excuses for being fat. "BMI isn't perfect! It doesn't work for professional bodybuilders! Therefore it's useless!"

Gimmie a break. Stop making excuses. If you don't believe when BMI is telling you you're fat, then do you believe your doctor? Your mirror? What will it take to get you (I'm referring to the general "you", not you specifically, xjmox14x; I've never met you, you could be the picture of fitness) to admit that you need to lose weight?

The diet/fitness/supplement industry has never been as thriving as it is today, and at the same time, America has never been fatter. We know more and more about what makes us fat, and yet the trend is getting FATTER, not fitter! Why? With everyone swearing by Atkins and Taubes and paleo, TRX, Crossfit, vegetarianism, why do we keep getting fatter and fatter? And why do we keep making excuses?

No, BMI is not perfect. But it's not useless, either. If it says you're obese, and you're not a professional bodybuilder, then I'm sorry, but it's not your "bone structure and density" - it's because YOU'RE FAT.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Just thought I'd share this with you guys. Enjoy.

 

[TheSlash]

^^ BMI is for the everyday lazy joe. I myself am almost obese, with a BMI of almost 28. I am considered overweight. But I'm under 10% bodyfat and all my abs stand out... it's quite funny. When people ask me why I am trying to lose weight, I tell them because I'm overweight. Even though I wear a 28 pant and they wear a 38.

Diet and fitness is thriving because they have given us SUCH BAD advice that we can't possibly be lean with it. BRB drinking my 300 calorie post treadmill shake to replenish the 150 calories I burned because I dont want to eat muscle! Or BRB eating my 6th meal today because I have to keep my metabolism stoked or I'll get fat.

We only need to eat once or twice a day, let your body burn off the food and live off its fat once in a dang while. It is meant to do that. You gorge on a kill, your body stores fat. You can't get a kill for another day or 2, no biggie, your body will use that fat to survive until you do. Its way smarter than we are.

It really is simple. We can definitely get rid of BMI. It should be BF% anyways.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

No, BMI is not perfect. But it's not useless, either. If it says you're obese, and you're not a professional bodybuilder, then I'm sorry, but it's not your "bone structure and density" - it's because YOU'RE FAT.

I agree. At 5'11"-6'0" it puts my "Normal" range at around 135-180 pounds. Granted the lower end is likely geared towards women and the higher end towards men. At 240 pounds I looked bad. At 220 pounds I look better. I'm looking forward to what 200 and 180 look like. Any lower than that and I don't know that I will look healthy. My body frame is suited more so to a heavier build but that doesn't give me free reign to pack on the fat.

 

[TheSlash]

 

[TyTanium]

Diet and fitness is thriving because they have given us SUCH BAD advice that we can't possibly be lean with it. BRB drinking my 300 calorie post treadmill shake to replenish the 150 calories I burned because I dont want to eat muscle! Or BRB eating my 6th meal today because I have to keep my metabolism stoked or I'll get fat.

We only need to eat once or twice a day, let your body burn off the food and live off its fat once in a dang while. It is meant to do that. You gorge on a kill, your body stores fat. You can't get a kill for another day or 2, no biggie, your body will use that fat to survive until you do. Its way smarter than we are.

It really is simple.

Haha, now there I agree with you 100%

 

[TheSlash]

They couldnt possibly say "eat less" or you shouldn't buy our supplements, or anything else that might work because you wouldn't need the next greatest weight loss fad then and they'd be out of business.

You can't bottle and sell "eat less".

 

[xjmox14x]

I disagree. If your BMI is over 30, that tells me that you are carrying an excessive amount of hydrated body fat. It tells me (and insurance companies) that you are at an elevated risk for diabetes, liver diseases, cardiovascular diseases, respiratory diseases, sleep apnea, joint problems, and a host of other ailments.

Show me a healthy/fit person with a BMI over 30.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I get so sick and tired of watching people trot out the same, lame excuses for being fat. "BMI isn't perfect! It doesn't work for professional bodybuilders! Therefore it's useless!"

Gimmie a break. Stop making excuses. If you don't believe when BMI is telling you you're fat, then do you believe your doctor? Your mirror? What will it take to get you (I'm referring to the general "you", not you specifically, xjmox14x; I've never met you, you could be the picture of fitness) to admit that you need to lose weight?

The diet/fitness/supplement industry has never been as thriving as it is today, and at the same time, America has never been fatter. We know more and more about what makes us fat, and yet the trend is getting FATTER, not fitter! Why? With everyone swearing by Atkins and Taubes and paleo, TRX, Crossfit, vegetarianism, why do we keep getting fatter and fatter? And why do we keep making excuses?

No, BMI is not perfect. But it's not useless, either. If it says you're obese, and you're not a professional bodybuilder, then I'm sorry, but it's not your "bone structure and density" - it's because YOU'RE FAT.

Not taking it towards me, I hear what you're saying and I appreciate it. My argument isn't that the BMI should be used as a crutch, quite the opposite really. My argument is that the BMI index is a gross generalization that may indicate one is "fat". I don't think people should use what I'm saying as an excuse, and I'm not using it as an excuse for them. I workout regularly, have been in contact sports my entire life, have a bodyfat percentage in the low teens, have regular physicals and am very healthy, and according to the BMI index, I'm borderline between "overweight" and "obese". If you have a high bodyfat percentage and have health concerns because of that, then hell yes, you are obese. But I don't think you need a chart to prove or disprove that. Nor do you need to use what I've argued here as an excuse not to workout because you have some fantasy that you look like Chris Hemsworth, when in reality you look like Chris Farley.

 

[Bumpasourus]

become an ironman tri-athlete - you can eat twinkies all day and drink beer all night and still be jacked like brad pitt in fight club but you might die at 50 of sudden cardiac arrest.

 

[CGVT]

And most people can't maintain "eat less" excercise more, because they are always hungry which causes them to binge.

Eat the right foods and control insulin and you will control you hunger, lose weight and be healthier. The right foods does not include wheat, starches and sugars, regadless of the source.

 

[Bumpasourus]

On another note actually related to the OP - guinness is pretty low calorie relatively and pretty darn yummy.

 

[Yooper]

A calorie is a unit of energy, there are no TYPES of calories.

It is all about insulin production. Excess insulin cases the body to store fat. Excess carbs(sugars) cause insulin spikes and cause the body to store the sugars as fat.

Read Why we get Fat by Gary Taubes.

That's my point.

It's true that a calorie is a calorie- if you're burning energy outside of the human body. Since humans have hormones and the body processes things differently than things happen outside the body, your body doesn't manage calories the way you'd think.

I've done YEARS of research on this, and I used to think the same thing- "a calorie is a calorie", "fat makes you fat", "eat less than you burn to lose weight", etc. But through learning more about insulin resistance, the way the body reacts to sugars (whether complex OR simple carbs), I began to do even more research. It's still not mainstream to believe what I'm saying- but we're getting there.

I went from a high carb/low fat diet (that I followed for about 35 years!) to a high protein/moderate fat/low carb diet and totally transferred my body, my lifestyle, and I eat about twice as much as I used to. I can barely keep the weight on now, even though I didn't cut beer at all. If I cut out the beer, I'd probably weigh 99 pounds!

I do NOT have a fast metabolism naturally, and everyone in my family is overweight. So it's not like I'm naturally thin- I've got my Polish peasant genes that hang onto to weight in normal conditions. I joke that I can outlive just about anybody in a famine, due to my natural tendency to be heavy, particularly around the middle.

I have really come to learn alot about wheat, and due to the "antinutrients" in wheat, I will not eat it unless I have to (like at a dinner party and there is nothing else): http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grains-are-unhealthy/#axzz29a3Y6X8A is a short synopsis of that.

As far as links to what I'm talking about, aside from Gary Taubes (the classic work on this idea), you could look up Chris Kresser's website (link seems down at the moment) and he has posted many studies and research on why the whole calories in/calories out is wrong. Recently, Taubes wrote an article for Newsweek with a synposis of his book (which is over about 600 pages) so this article is shorter and explains the obesity epidemic and why the "calorie is calorie" idea is wrong: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...p-america-s-obesity-crisis-keeps-failing.html


The thing I said was this though- it is true that if you eat fewer calories then you expend you will lose weight. I totally agree. But my point is that it's not OPTIMUM for health and well being.

Optimum nutrition, which gives you a healthy heart, healthy teeth, healthy body, (which just happens to put me at a slim weight), along with no problems with insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome- THAT is the key for health. That fact that I happen to be at a perfect weight by doing all of that for my health is a bonus, and not the goal.

 

[dbrewski]

three...two...one....wait for it....theSlash is typing...

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Most NFL linebackers ARE obese.

I can't agree with that at all. They are probably in the best shape of any position on the field. The avg NFL linebacker is about 6' 2" , 240lbs, 5% or less body fat, runs a 4.5 sec 40 yard dash, and has a vertical jump of about 32 inches. That's not even getting into the numbers they can put up in the weight room. Obese people can't do that kinda stuff.

 

[Pecafaced]

I can't agree with that at all. They are probably in the best shape of any position on the field. The avg NFL linebacker is about 6' 2" , 240lbs, 5% or less body fat, runs a 4.5 sec 40 yard dash, and has a vertical jump of about 32 inches. That's not even getting into the numbers they can put up in the weight room. Obese people can't do that kinda stuff.

In terms of BMI which doesn't account for muscle mass...that linebacker is obese. But I agree they are in the best shape out of any other position.

 

[nukebrewer]

In terms of BMI which doesn't account for muscle mass...that linebacker is obese. But I agree they are in the best shape out of any other position.

There's no "in terms of BMI." You're either obese or your not. A number that doesn't take into account anything but height and weight is, to me, useless.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Calories in vs. calories out only applies to weight, but most people want to lose fat. That's why you have to consider the source of calories. If you take in mostly carbs you wont lose nearly as much fat as if you feed your body enough protein to maintain or increase your lean muscle mass. Additionally, healthy fats like CLA help to burn additional fat. The science isn't clear on why, but there is known to be a strong correlation between CLA intake and fat loss. Unlike a lot of supplements, the studies done on CLA were conducted using serving sizes that would be practical for the average person to consume.

This is why IIFYM dieting is so popular on fitness/bodybuilding forums. Im not saying that its the most HEALTHY way, but then again that is still subjective, and science cant to this day really entirely define healthy eating..just look at Eggs...in the last 20 years they have been horrible for you, then good for you, now there was another article that if you eat eggs you'll have a heart attack, its a joke really.

Look up IIFYM(If It Fits Your Macros)...watching your macros(Protein/Fat/Carbs) and keeping them at a constant % (say 50% carbs/30% protein, 20% fat) if your under your daily maintenence calories, you WILL lose weight. It doesnt matter if those carbs come from sugar or from wheat, obviously getting 50g of carbs from a candy bar will leave you entire unsatiated, where as 50g of carbs from oatmeal will have you full for hours.

Honestly, the diet that works best for everyone is the one that you can actually stick too as a lifestyle change, and not see it as a 3-6 month thing your doing before you go back to eating like crap. For some people Paleo diets are best, for some people Keto is easier, for some people IIFYM works...what Yooper is stating is true in that her evidence is good for her, not everyone necessarily.

For me i have the exact opposite issue most people have(although it sounds like Yoopers husband has it), in that i cant put on weight and feel like im eating like a horse just to put on 1 lb per week...

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Look up IIFYM(If It Fits Your Macros)...watching your macros(Protein/Fat/Carbs) and keeping them at a constant % (say 50% carbs/30% protein, 20% fat) if your under your daily maintenence calories, you WILL lose weight.

This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to hit the old 40/30/30. It's tougher than you think. I often end up short on protein.

 

[kroach01]

It is all about insulin production. Excess insulin cases the body to store fat. Excess carbs(sugars) cause insulin spikes and cause the body to store the sugars as fat.

Read Why we get Fat by Gary Taubes.

This is true to an extent. If there is already plenty of glycogen, there will be fat storage. If you carb load after a marathon, a good deal of these carbs are going to go to restoring glycogen, homeostasis, and bodily energy reserves. Not necessarily fat, but certainly associated with it.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to hit the old 40/30/30. It's tougher than you think. I often end up short on protein.

This is true, protein is harder because it fills you up. I always keep protein shakes around for this reason, and sip on one a day usually at work. You just have to get good stuff like Optinum Nutrition or others that arent loaded with carbs...most protein bars are garbage too and are basically candy bars with soy protein. Which opens up a whole 'nother debate on soy protein and estrogen production...

A lot of people diet improperly and loose weight, but dont realize until the end that they were losing muscle mass(weighs more than fat) along with it...so they get to the end and look like a anorexic cancer patient.
In the end they may have lost the weight and look skinnier, which is good for numerous health reasons though.

Im in the opposite boat, i have trouble putting on weight, so to go from 125-150 took me years of slowly bulking up and eating until i was sick lol.

 

[kroach01]

I disagree. If your BMI is over 30, that tells me that you are carrying an excessive amount of hydrated body fat. It tells me (and insurance companies) that you are at an elevated risk for diabetes, liver diseases, cardiovascular diseases, respiratory diseases, sleep apnea, joint problems, and a host of other ailments.

Show me a healthy/fit person with a BMI over 30.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I get so sick and tired of watching people trot out the same, lame excuses for being fat. "BMI isn't perfect! It doesn't work for professional bodybuilders! Therefore it's useless!"

Gimmie a break. Stop making excuses. If you don't believe when BMI is telling you you're fat, then do you believe your doctor? Your mirror? What will it take to get you (I'm referring to the general "you", not you specifically, xjmox14x; I've never met you, you could be the picture of fitness) to admit that you need to lose weight?

The diet/fitness/supplement industry has never been as thriving as it is today, and at the same time, America has never been fatter. We know more and more about what makes us fat, and yet the trend is getting FATTER, not fitter! Why? With everyone swearing by Atkins and Taubes and paleo, TRX, Crossfit, vegetarianism, why do we keep getting fatter and fatter? And why do we keep making excuses?

No, BMI is not perfect. But it's not useless, either. If it says you're obese, and you're not a professional bodybuilder, then I'm sorry, but it's not your "bone structure and density" - it's because YOU'RE FAT.

+1, though probably a bit harsh.

The BMI isn't a one-size-fits-all equation that's always correct. It's useful for getting our best guesses about public health. It's cheap and easy, a good thing when trying to measure hundreds of millions of people.
For the AVERAGE person, not an NFL linebacker or professional bodybuilder, a BMI over 30 or so will mean there's too much body fat.
Clearly a BMI of 23-29 doesn't really say much because this is the point at which the deviations in muscle mass of the public vary too much to make an accurate statement based on BMI. If your BMI is 28, you're probably fine.
However, there are plenty of people with BMIs over 35. From a public health perspective, the VAST majority of these people are truly obese. Sure, you'll have the one in a hundred thousand NFL linebacker. But from a general public health perspective a BMI of 35 strongly indicates obesity and high risk of MI, stroke, DM, etc etc.