Batch sparging confusion

[Warthaug]

Alright, a few more articles and podcasts behind me, and I think I'm ready to go. But a few last questions before I built my MLT:

1) Is it correct that with batch sparging, grain bed depth isn't overly important - i.e. I could by a large (47qt) cooler big enough to do big beers, and still make lighter ales/etc with 5-8lb grain bills without a huge loss of efficiency? I know with my past fly-sparging setup that grain bed depth was important, so this seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

2) I was planning on building my manifold out of 3/8" copper (based roughly on this design), but I see some use PVC to save $$$. Is there any noticeable decrease in efficiency (or other negatives) of PVC versus copper?

3) I know with batch sparging you need to mix the sparge water really well with the grain. But I also assume you need to be careful, to avoid hot-side aeration. Any tricks/hints on how best to do this (mixing time, etc), or am I just paranoid?

Thanx, yet again, for all the good advice

Bryan

 

[Yooper]

Alright, a few more articles and podcasts behind me, and I think I'm ready to go. But a few last questions before I built my MLT:

1) Is it correct that with batch sparging, grain bed depth isn't overly important - i.e. I could by a large (47qt) cooler big enough to do big beers, and still make lighter ales/etc with 5-8lb grain bills without a huge loss of efficiency? I know with my past fly-sparging setup that grain bed depth was important, so this seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

2) I was planning on building my manifold out of 3/8" copper (based roughly on this design), but I see some use PVC to save $$$. Is there any noticeable decrease in efficiency (or other negatives) of PVC versus copper?

3) I know with batch sparging you need to mix the sparge water really well with the grain. But I also assume you need to be careful, to avoid hot-side aeration. Any tricks/hints on how best to do this (mixing time, etc), or am I just paranoid?
Thanx, yet again, for all the good advice

Bryan

1. Correct. The only issue I can see is a loss of heat during a mash in a big cooler. Not really a problem, especially if you have a well insulated mash tun, and it won't affect the sparge at all.

2. No, but use cPVC, not the regular PVC. cPvc is ok for hotter temperatures (food safe).

3. HSA is not an issue with stirring the sparge well. You want to stir very well before vorlaufing and draining. I'm not sure HSA is an issue at all in homebrewing, but that's for another discussion!

 

[Denny]

I don't get it. Why is it not ok to batch sparge with 2 separate sparges? I collect my first runnings from the mash, say 2.5 gallons and then I sparge with like 2.5 gallons twice getting my total preboil of 7.5. I also wait 10 mins before running off. I read that link you posted and didn't see an explanation as to why it doesn't matter to wait that time. I thought we were letting the grain bed reset. I'm all confused now. :-/

Dozens of experiments have proven to me that the very small increase you _might_ get in efficiency from multiple sparges just isn't worth my time or efforts. Likewise, waiting after adding the sparge water is completely unnecessary. I've tried dozens of time variations, from waiting 30 min. to immediately running off the sparge. There was absolutely no difference in the beer so why spend the extra time?

 

[Denny]

This is a good discussion! I was wondering this my self as I did my first all-grain last weekend. When I put my recipe into Beersmith it splits it into two sparges and for some reason I couldn't make it into just one.

Keep in mind that Beersmith is just a tool for you to use. Don't confuse it with brewing instructions. Multiple batch sparges are something I've discussed with Brad before, even when I was guest on his podcast. I wish he would make that an option to be used in special circumstances, not the default method.

 

[Denny]

I have a 50 qt converted Gatorade cooler. It's awesome.

I researched the hell outta this prior to converting said cooler and building a CFWC. I settled on the method espoused by BYO contributor and brand spankin' new brewery owner Jamil Zainasheff (Mr. Malty himself).

Why take batch sparge instructions from a guy who doesn't batch sparge?

 

[Denny]

I'm generally confident in saying that Denny's position is that there is no appreciable benefit to batch sparging with more discrete infusions (over one). Other than the time and effort in doing so, there is also no harm unless you use so many small infusions that the grain never really gets fluid. There is a very small increase in efficiency with 2 sparges over one, but it's in the realm of 3-4% and for most won't make the extra work worth it. If your tun can't handle one large infusion, no worries.

Correct, Bobby. The other thing to be aware of that the more batch sparges you do, the more likely you are to dilute the pH buffering power of the grains.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Mash out is not necessary for homebrewing due to the relatively short amount of time we take to sparge. However, you may choose to do it for other reasons, like it might make your time to get to boil a bit quicker. Some think that it makes a sparge flow better. The jury is out on that one.

I have used a drilled copper manifold that has been de-burred inside and out and have yet to have a real problem with stuck sparge. I've never used rice hulls. It really comes down to your manifold type. Some have larger or smaller openings and/or things for the bits to get caught on.

I typically start the vorlauf kind of slow to the grain bed will have a chance to sort itself out. Once it's settled a bit I can crank the flow without worry.

What kind of manifold system do you use?

Did you solder the joints or just friction fit them together?

 

[panicbuttonguy]

Alright. On our next batches we're not going to wait the 10 mins. We're just going to wait the time it takes to vorlauf. I think we're going to experiment with the 2 sparges vs. 1 and see what we get. Thanks for the responses and letting me hijack your thread for a bit Warthaug.

 

[DeafSmith]

Kaiser has an interesting analysis on batch sparging here:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...Analysis#Effect_of_the_relative_run-off_sizes

I agree that the small efficiency gain from multiple sparges isn't worth the time and trouble.

 

[tre9er]

I'm generally confident in saying that Denny's position is that there is no appreciable benefit to batch sparging with more discrete infusions (over one). Other than the time and effort in doing so, there is also no harm unless you use so many small infusions that the grain never really gets fluid. There is a very small increase in efficiency with 2 sparges over one, but it's in the realm of 3-4% and for most won't make the extra work worth it. If your tun can't handle one large infusion, no worries.

In my 6.5g. MLT I can get way more than 1.25qts/lb of strike, sparge, etc. Now, that's for medium gravity beers. I already know I'm losing a lot of efficiency if I start making high-gravity beers as my ratio goes way down. Right now I'm in the 70's on efficiency and the next time I don't screw something up with the mash I'm feeling confident I'll be near 80%.

I have to admit though, it's crossed my mind now that I have two e-kettles that I could do a nearly 10g. batch (probably about 8, split boil) if only my MLT was large enough. I've seen the marine cooler in the 12.5g. size for about $30 at walmart and that got me thinking.

 

[Homercidal]

Did you solder the joints or just friction fit them together?

They are friction fit. I found a piece of steel rod with a tapered end and formed each copper piece with it. It made each end opening round again (after being in a CNC vise for the hole drilling) and made each one a snug fit. They don't come apart until you want them to.

The nice thing is I can take the entire end off the manifold an rinse it out with a garden hose quickly. Then the manifold folds back down into the bottom of the cooler.

 

[fargo234]

Why take batch sparge instructions from a guy who doesn't batch sparge?

Whoa now. The guy's not like my best friend or anything. He wrote up a bunch of articles with recipes and instructions.

I had been taking the first runnings at mash out and then adding 168º sparge water, stirring, resting, and then draining for my full pre-boil volume. But my efficiencies were consistently low. 65-70%.

I tried one of Jamil's recipes, after my 60 minute mash added boiling water until mash was 168ºF and let it rest. Then proceeded with my day. My efficiencies jumped to a consistent 75-80%. And most importantly, the flavor of my brews improved.

I really don't know the guy all that well. I don't follow him on twitter or facebook or even to the grocery store. I honestly don't know how he brews at home. Or care really...

 

[tre9er]

Whoa now. The guy's not like my best friend or anything. He wrote up a bunch of articles with recipes and instructions.

I had been taking the first runnings at mash out and then adding 168º sparge water, stirring, resting, and then draining for my full pre-boil volume. But my efficiencies were consistently low. 65-70%.

I tried one of Jamil's recipes, after my 60 minute mash added boiling water until mash was 168ºF and let it rest. Then proceeded with my day. My efficiencies jumped to a consistent 75-80%. And most importantly, the flavor of my brews improved.

I really don't know the guy all that well. I don't follow him on twitter or facebook or even to the grocery store. I honestly don't know how he brews at home. Or care really...

I would guess your mashout helped but I'm still a tad skeptical. Perhaps you thinned the wort enough to get more fluidity??

 

[Warthaug]

So things have gone a little OT, but I'd just like to thank denny (sorry 'bout callin you 'danny'), yooper, and everyone else who offered advice. I'm just going to take denny's method and run with it - braided hose and everything (I can always build a manifold later on if I want to go back to fly). This weekend I'm building the MLT, immersion chiller and a few other bits. Assuming SWMBO'd can be convinced to transfer a wine out of one of our primaries*, I'll start a batch next weekend!

Bryan

*who'd ever have thought that marrying a fellow brewer would lead to issues, rather than solve them?

 

[Denny]

Whoa now. The guy's not like my best friend or anything. He wrote up a bunch of articles with recipes and instructions.

I had been taking the first runnings at mash out and then adding 168º sparge water, stirring, resting, and then draining for my full pre-boil volume. But my efficiencies were consistently low. 65-70%.

I tried one of Jamil's recipes, after my 60 minute mash added boiling water until mash was 168ºF and let it rest. Then proceeded with my day. My efficiencies jumped to a consistent 75-80%. And most importantly, the flavor of my brews improved.

I really don't know the guy all that well. I don't follow him on twitter or facebook or even to the grocery store. I honestly don't know how he brews at home. Or care really...

I know him pretty well and consider him a good friend....that's why I said what I did! Glad he helped you improve your beers.

 

[fargo234]

I know him pretty well and consider him a good friend....that's why I said what I did! Glad he helped you improve your beers.

Whew! I thought for a bit that I had committed a HBT faux pas in mentioning him. I've checked out your website. Turns out the design I used in making my mashtun leads directly back to you. So, thanks!

I'm gonna bring this thread back on-topic now. Sorta.

I'm in favor of the OP using Method 2. With the technique I mentioned before. Tre9er mentioned:

I would guess your mashout helped but I'm still a tad skeptical. Perhaps you thinned the wort enough to get more fluidity??

I typically mash at 1.5 qts/lb. Does getting more fluidity help in getting higher efficiencies? I had attributed it to bringing the mash to a higher temp. There are a ton of recipes that require the mash to be brought to higher temps in steps.

 

[helibrewer]

I add an extra pound of grain to the recipe, mash at 1.5qts/lb then do a single sparge with acidified water (no rest). I then just add acidifed water to reach pre-boil gravity (not volume) right into the kettle.

 

[Denny]

Whew! I thought for a bit that I had committed a HBT faux pas in mentioning him. I've checked out your website. Turns out the design I used in making my mashtun leads directly back to you. So, thanks!

I'm gonna bring this thread back on-topic now. Sorta.

I'm in favor of the OP using Method 2. With the technique I mentioned before. Tre9er mentioned:



I typically mash at 1.5 qts/lb. Does getting more fluidity help in getting higher efficiencies? I had attributed it to bringing the mash to a higher temp. There are a ton of recipes that require the mash to be brought to higher temps in steps.

And those steps are almost never necessary. I found that my efficiency went up a little bit when I went to thinner (1.66-2 qt./lb.) mashes. I no longer do a discrete "mash out" step. I just sparge with 190-200F water which accomplishes about the same thing. You don't really denature the enzymes (you need to hold the temp 20+ min.l to do that), but it solubulizes the remaining starch and helps convert it. The thinner mashes also seem to be responsible for raising my conversion efficiency to pretty much 100% every time.

 

[fargo234]

And those steps are almost never necessary. I found that my efficiency went up a little bit when I went to thinner (1.66-2 qt./lb.) mashes. I no longer do a discrete "mash out" step. I just sparge with 190-200F water which accomplishes about the same thing. You don't really denature the enzymes (you need to hold the temp 20+ min.l to do that), but it solubulizes the remaining starch and helps convert it. The thinner mashes also seem to be responsible for raising my conversion efficiency to pretty much 100% every time.

Starting a new thread called "Parti-gyle style". Would freakin' love your input!

 

[Warthaug]

So I completed my first attempt at a batch sparge this weekend. It went quite well, except for one problem that I hope people here can comment on.

I mashed in at 64C, 2.6L/kg grain (~155F, 1.5qt/lb), mashed for 60min (iodine test showed conversion was complete at 45min), drained the tun, and then added the amount of sparge water @74C recommended by beersmith (18.8L, ~5 US gal) - this is slightly MORE than what denney's formula predicts. I stirred the crap out of it and drained - this should have given me 27L (~7 US gal, 7.5 by dennies calcs) of pre-boil wort; instead I was a gallon short - only 24L! Near the end I had the odd experience of being able to pull a cup or two of wort out every 10min by sucking on the tube, but even with that, was really short on the volume.

I carefully dissected the grainbed, to see if the braided tube had come off the bottom, or there was more deadspace than I originally predicted, but everything was OK.

Where did my gallon of water go? And yes, both beersmith and I calc'd grain absorption (recipe was 88% 2-row, remainder crystal 60 and cara-pils). As it was, I had nearly 80% mash efficiency, but it should have been closer to 85%!

Bryan

PS: aside from the missing wort issue, it was otherwise great. I will be batch-sparging form now on...

 

[Denny]

Bryan, is there any dead space in your cooler that could be holding wort? Next time, after you run off your mash, measure how much you have. Subtract that from the volume you want to boil. That amount is how much sparge water to use. FWIW, the figures on my web page are approximations as examples. You need to establish those values for your own system.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Hey dude. I batch sparge with a little less water than my mash volume at boiling or just under. One sparge addition in a standard picnic cooler. I'm sure it's the same as yours. I hit all my numbers within a couple points, but I 2X grind my grain at my lhbs. I get pretty dang good efficiency, I believe, from the double grind despite my lack of knowledge... But I make my own luck! and beer🍻

 

[Warthaug]

Bryan, is there any dead space in your cooler that could be holding wort? Next time, after you run off your mash, measure how much you have. Subtract that from the volume you want to boil. That amount is how much sparge water to use. FWIW, the figures on my web page are approximations as examples. You need to establish those values for your own system.

The dead-space is minimal; with the braided hose on the bottom there is ~125ml (1/2 cup) of dead-space, created by the little indent below the drain. If I fill with water and drain (i.e. no grain), that's all that remains. Like I said in my last post, I "dissected" the grain bed to look for pooling and/or the braided hose having lifted, and found neither (I did find the 1/2 cup worth of dead space, as expected, but nothing more).

I'm guessing that my grain absorbed more water than is usual, but a whole extra gallon in what was an ~12lb grain bill - that seems unlikely, based on my past experience.

I'm brewing again, two weekends from now. I'll try bumping up the sparge volume to see if that makes things better.

Bryan

 

[tre9er]

I'm brewing again, two weekends from now. I'll try bumping up the sparge volume to see if that makes things better.

Bryan

I always heat up more sparge than I need. Just stop running off when you hit preboil volume. No need to stress over exact strike/sparge volumes that way.

 

[jkendal]

The dead-space is minimal; with the braided hose on the bottom there is ~125ml (1/2 cup) of dead-space, created by the little indent below the drain. If I fill with water and drain (i.e. no grain), that's all that remains. Like I said in my last post, I "dissected" the grain bed to look for pooling and/or the braided hose having lifted, and found neither (I did find the 1/2 cup worth of dead space, as expected, but nothing more).

I'm guessing that my grain absorbed more water than is usual, but a whole extra gallon in what was an ~12lb grain bill - that seems unlikely, based on my past experience.

I'm brewing again, two weekends from now. I'll try bumping up the sparge volume to see if that makes things better.

Bryan

Did you measure your first run-off and subtract that from your pre-boil target volume? The result is what you'll need for the batch sparge. You don't need to add more than that - the grain will absorb all it's going to absorb during the mash. One thing that might help (you probably already thought of it but just in case) - put a brick, a block or a phone book under the end of your cooler opposite the drain.

 

[logdrum]

I always heat up more sparge than I need. Just stop running off when you hit preboil volume. No need to stress over exact strike/sparge volumes that way.

Provided you've reached your pre-boil gravity as well

 

[tre9er]

Provided you've reached your pre-boil gravity as well

True, I don't have a refractometer and the temp adjustments don't seem to be entirely accurate with a hydrometer. Usually I hit my efficiency or higher, so I stick to volume. Technically if you want to nail the OG yes, you'd want to take gravity readings from the BK and keep an eye on that as you fill it.

 

[Warthaug]

I always heat up more sparge than I need. Just stop running off when you hit preboil volume.

I'm brewing in a week, and I'm going to try that next time. Plus, I boiled off way more than I expected (first time with a turkey firer; holly-crap!), so I'm going to bump up my pre-boil volume as well.

Did you measure your first run-off and subtract that from your pre-boil target volume? The result is what you'll need for the batch sparge.

No, I didn't. I went with the numbers I calc'd by hand off of Denney's site, and the numbers calc'd by beersmith (they were close to the same). I'm going to up my volumes next batch; hopefully it'll be closer.

Bryan

 

[jkendal]

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[DSmith]

I check the actual gravity against the intended pre-boil gravity when I hit the pre-boil volume from the sparge (measure volume of first run-off, add just enough sparge water to hit the pre-boil volume). The efficiency is usually higher than expected so here's an equation for correcting that with brewing water instead of increasing your volume (I'm volume limited and plan for the absolule max that I can boil):

Efficiency Too High

(PBV) Pre-Boil Volume [Gallons]
(PBG) Recipe Pre-Boil Gravity
(AG) Actual Mash Gravity
(RV) Removed Volume to be Replace with Brewing Water [Gallons]

RV = PBV*(1 – PBG/AG)

Example

PBV = 4.125
PBG = 48
AG = 54
RV = 4.125*(1-48/54) = 0.46 gallons