Bad Batch After Bad Batch After Bad Batch!!!

[fishops]

Your problem is that you are using PBW and or Star San and you are not rinsing well enough. I have had a lot of people ruin thier beer by not rinsing these cleaners off. IMHO I wouldn't use such expensive cleaners for normal use. They work well on stubborn stuff.

I can feel your pain. Let me send you a sample of my sanitizer/cleaner that works like hydrogen peroxide to sanitize and clean and you do not have to rinse.

I can send you a beer kit too, just to ease the pain of having lost all of that beer.
What kind of beer do you usually brew? It will be a simple beer as a test batch.

PM me your name and address. While you are waiting for your batch to arrive take a cap full of bleach per 5 gallons and "nuke" all of your plastics. Then rinse and rinse and rinse until you can't rinse any more to get rid of any bacteria and left over cleaners.

Forrest

For what it's worth, I've accidentally dumped an airlock full of starsan in my secondary to practically no ill effect. I would expect his chemical taste is more likely caused by not rinsing the PBW properly, or over-chlorinated water, or a myriad of potential sanitation problems.

I'm not trying to be contentious, I have just never had a problem with five star stuff, and I'd be surprised if this dude's issue is his choice of cleaner and sanitizer. (please send me free stuff anyway )

 

[mmmbeer]

Ive had this same problem. I bleached all my equipment and then took a spray bottle fulll of bleach solution and sprayed all around where i ferment. I really think this problem is a wild yeast strain.

 

[Philip1993]

{AHS is } Badass.

Kudos's to AHS. You just went up 20 points on my scale.

 

[PearlJamNoCode]

Just one more reason I only buy from AHS

 

[tranceamerica]

is the OP going to chime in and tell us what HE thinks the problem might be?

 

[yeqmaster]

WOW!!! Sorry for the delay... Thanks so much everyone for all the comments and suggestions, especially Forrest (no offense to the rest of you). I read them all. I definitely took in all the advice that was posted and will try the advice that you have given. To clarify a few things... I rinse thoroughly after the PBW and dont rinse after the star san. I cool fairly rapidly using a wort chiller and keep the wort covered while doing this. hmmm what else...

I ferment my beer always in the same closet (the coolest place in my house) at around 65 deg. I don't know if since I always keep it in this closet, there could be potential problems. Another question; someone mentioned using a starter as a serious advantage and possible solution to my problem. Other thoughts on this matter. I am now thinking that once I get my test batch I am going to try brewing at a friend of mines house. I got him into brewing and now all his batches are turning out fine and mine not. I originally mentioned that he has used some of my equipment (auto-siphon, chiller, etc.) and his batches are fine. So I will try this. The vent fan above my stove has been on during all these batches. Possible contamination because of this??? Anyways thanks again everyone!

 

[yeqmaster]

Oh and by the way, I just bottled a batch yesterday and eliminated the bucket out of the process. I just racked directly into another carboy on top of the sugar solution and from there bottled using a bottling attachment on my siphon. Hopefully this will HELP! Thanks again for all the posts you guys. The Homebrew community rocks my WORLD!

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

something "extra special" in the air

After everything else said about the plastics involved, i'd say that this is one that doesn't get as much attention....

The guy at my LHBS told me about a guy who kept complaining that all of his beers had a really wierd flavor, EVERY one of them had it. He told him to bring him 2 beers to sample. He tasted them and asked about his process in great detail.... Then he asked him how he aerated, he aerated by dumping the Wort with water to aerate and dilute to proper grav (nothing wrong with this btw), and then he asked him if he's been doing anything special in the kitchen, to which the guys eyes light up and he goes "Oh yeah, i've been making sourdough bread." Ta-day the yeast from the bread was in the air and got mixed in with every batch, just enough to impart a flavor before the ale yeast was introduced.

So, what have you been doing in your prep area lately? Try changing locations.

 

[yeqmaster]

So, what have you been doing in your prep area lately?

hmmm... lets see... i do a lot of cooking. no bread making however. Or anything involving other forms of yeast. My bread cabinet is fairly close to the stove, however cooked bread shouldn't affect it. Sometimes dinner is made on the same stove as the brew during the brewing process... other than that.. I can't think of too much else.

 

[DaleJ]

Oh and by the way, I just bottled a batch yesterday and eliminated the bucket out of the process. I just racked directly into another carboy on top of the sugar solution and from there bottled using a bottling attachment on my siphon. Hopefully this will HELP! Thanks again for all the posts you guys. The Homebrew community rocks my WORLD!

Did you sample the beer at this point?
How'd it taste? Any of that flavor present?

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Medicinal = Cleaners. Bacteria or wild yeast are not going to taste medicinal.

I will ship you the beer kit on Monday. Let me know your results.

Forrest

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

Medicinal = Cleaners. Bacteria or wild yeast are not going to taste medicinal.

I will ship you the beer kit on Monday. Let me know your results.

Forrest

Not entirely, if it tastes like a familiar antibiotic (penicillin), or like band aids, then it could be bacteria.

If it's like eating green apples it's bacterial too.

If it tastes like vegetables then it's probably bacteria causing DMS.

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

double post wtf?

 

[Austinhomebrew]

While there is a slim chance that it is a bacteria, the odds are that he didn't rinse a cleaner. Especially if it keeps happening batch after batch. Also, just becase a cleaner says no rinse doesn't mean that you can't rinse.

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

While there is a slim chance that it is a bacteria, the odds are that he didn't rinse a cleaner. Especially if it keeps happening batch after batch. Also, just becase a cleaner says no rinse doesn't mean that you can't rinse.

That's very true. I concur in this situation that it's most likely due to rinsing. From my experience PBW leaves a film if it's not rinsed VERY thoroughly. I use a garden hose and spray out my kettle for 20 minutes. I was just adding that its not always just from cleaner (sorry for any confusion).


But if it happens again i'd say the odds are then 90% that he's got infections in his plastic equipment somewhere where he can't get sanitizer.

*To OP: let's see if we can't get you some new plastic equipment out of this too *

 

[dubbel dutch]

For anyone concerned about air-born contaminants in the environment surrounding...

I've brewed a handful of batches in my dutty dutty college apartment (my room mates are disgusting and never clean anything) and IMHO my beer has been coming out pretty good... keeping in mind that taste is somewhat subjective ;p... my best guess would be little scratches in the fermenter.

 

[yeqmaster]

Did you sample the beer at this point?
How'd it taste? Any of that flavor present?

I sampled the beer and it tasted pretty good. It still definitely had a sign of the same contamination but not nearly as strong as some of the other batches.

When I talked to the LHBS yesterday and let them try my previous batch out, they figured that the contamination problem/bacteria is being introduced at a late stage of the process. They seemed to think that it was a bacteria or wild yeast related problem, but because the beer isn't completely terrible, it only consumed some of the sugars at a late stage. What are thoughts on this?

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

Simplify:

• Reduce your cleaning to using just a mild bleach solution and hot rinse. (I've used it exclusively with no bad batches).
• Try using bottled water on your next batch.
• Use your glass carboy as a primary and don't transfer to a secondary.
• Pitch a fresh packet of dry yeast (don't know what you've pitched before).
• Return to the boil / cool procedure for your priming sugar.

Good advise. As far as sanitation, if you have a repeat problem it is best to go back to basics. Chlorine bleach breaks the cell membranes and the mechanism is different from Star San. Try that and then rinse.

After rinsing well you can then go for redundancy and hit it with Star San.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Do you rinse off your PBW? (PBW definately has to be rinsed off)

Forrest

 

[FlyGuy]

There is a lot of opinions flying around here, so I will give you mine based on having the EXACT same experience a few years ago.

Chemical/medicinal flavours are caused by high levels of phenolics in your beer. There are only two common sources. Chlorophenols are a medicinal-smelling/tasting (sometimes band-aid-like) component that typically arise from a reaction between wort compounds and chlorine. The source of chlorine is often from not rinsing bleach or chlorinated sanitizers thoroughly, but it can also come from tap water that wasn't treated prior to brewing. PBW and Star San are NOT chlorinated products, so they will not produce chlorophenols.

High levels of phenols can also be commonly produced by bacteria or wild yeast infections, and I have experienced this first hand. Wild yeast infections are particularly nasty because encysted yeast cells can get in the tiniest, microscopic scratch in plastic or rubber equipment and be completely resistant to every form of sanitization other than heat sterilization. A few years ago, I picked up an infection from a contaminated, locally-produced no-boil wort kit, and it persisted for 4 batches. I did EVERYTHING possible to sanitize my equipment, and nothing helped. I only solved my problem by throwing out every piece of plastic or rubber equipment I owned. As soon as I did this, my beer was fine again. I wish I had done this right away, because the ruined batches cost FAR MORE than the replacement equipment.

Anyways, I share in your frustration, and I hope that you don't have infected equipment. But stick with it -- you will get it solved and you can get back to brewing, pull off some good batches, regain your confidence, and start having fun again.

BTW, I completely agree with the advice above that you should switch up your sanitizers every now and then to keep the nasties on their toes. About every fifth batch, I put away the Star San and use a good old bleach solution to sanitize my gear. Also, do use Star San -- it is entirely no rinse, despite some previous advice. Accidentally, I once even racked cooled wort into a carboy that still had about 2 quarts of Star San in the bottom. The beer was a low gravity English mild, and I couldn't detect the Star San one bit. That stuff is magic, and I guarantee it won't cause any off flavours.

Best of luck!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Take Forrest at AHB up on his offer. I would recomend reading this.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Maybe these off-flavor descriptions and solutions will help you ID the off-taste better.

Do you have a grain mill? I'm guessing its no. The reason I ask is it can be a bad idea to grind your grain where you may have cooled & unpitched wort present.

Dust can get kicked up easily and the wild yeast will be air-borne.

Check out how to brew. Good luck kicking this problem to the curb!

 

[Austinhomebrew]

All I am saying is that PBW needs to be rinsed and it wasn't. The homebrew store the man is going to is not helping. Without the benefit of being able to taste the beer (the homebrew store tasted the beer but wasn't able to help, at least that is the impression that is presented) I would guess that not rinsing the PBW is the culprit. No one said PBW and Star San are chlorinated products, so they will produce chlorophenols.

I will be sending a different sanitizer/cleaner and a recipe kit to try to resolve the problem. I am crossing my fingers that he follows my suggestions so we can find out. I don't think he has to throw away his equipment just yet.

Forrest

 

[yeqmaster]

Do you rinse off your PBW? (PBW definately has to be rinsed off)

Forrest

I definitely rinse the PBW and do so fairly thoroughly... When doing it, I notice the film that it produces and try to rinse until it is eliminated. Theres definitely still a chance that this could be the problem though cause it sounds like this stuff needs to rinsed very well. I look forward to trying the new product and see if this can eliminate the problem. I also think that the batch that I just bottled tasted fine when I bottled and because I used a carboy to bottle instead of the plastic theres a good chance that this will turn out. I am going to start the bleach soak on the equipment on tuesday. Thanks for the advice and information on everything... I definitely feel like I have a much better understanding of what is going on with the beer and contamination problems now.

 

[yeqmaster]

One more thing that just occured to me after reading the posts... The kits that I have been brewing have primarily been organic brew kits (organic grains, extract, etc.). Could this have anything to do with bacteria issues?

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

One more thing that just occured to me after reading the posts... The kits that I have been brewing have primarily been organic brew kits (organic grains, extract, etc.). Could this have anything to do with bacteria issues?

Another question, how do you sanitize your bottles and caps? How do you clean them too? It's quite possible your cleaning or sanitizing job on the bottles isn't as thorough as you might think.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

You don't need to sanitize the caps if you pull them straight from the bag.

A good habit is to clean things really well when you are done with them and sanitze things before you use them.

 

[AnonyBrew]

Your problem is that you are using PBW and or Star San and you are not rinsing well enough. I have had a lot of people ruin thier beer by not rinsing these cleaners off. IMHO I wouldn't use such expensive cleaners for normal use. They work well on stubborn stuff.

I can feel your pain. Let me send you a sample of my sanitizer/cleaner that works like hydrogen peroxide to sanitize and clean and you do not have to rinse.

I can send you a beer kit too, just to ease the pain of having lost all of that beer.
What kind of beer do you usually brew? It will be a simple beer as a test batch.

PM me your name and address. While you are waiting for your batch to arrive take a cap full of bleach per 5 gallons and "nuke" all of your plastics. Then rinse and rinse and rinse until you can't rinse any more to get rid of any bacteria and left over cleaners.

Forrest

Now I'm confused. I understand PBW needs to be rinsed, but all the posts on here I've read about StarSan say that it's a NO RINSE sanitizer. This post states otherwise?

 

[Sigafoos]

I think what he meant is that you can rinse if you want to. I don't see why I would, because that's the reason I'm using Star San in the first place, but it's good to know it won't mess anything up.

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

You don't need to sanitize the caps if you pull them straight from the bag.

A good habit is to clean things really well when you are done with them and sanitze things before you use them.

Never hurts to sanitize them anyway, he could be pulling them out of an already opened bag.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Never hurts to sanitize them anyway, he could be pulling them out of an already opened bag.

Actually if you are using Oxygen Barrier caps you defeat the 02 seal if you sanitize the caps.

Forrest