Automated Valves - Are They Worth It?

[BrunDog]

Seals are fine in the valves. I don't disassemble every time, but this is what I get when I don't try to open close the valves repeatedly during the cleaning cycle. I'm sure that some of it depends on how tight the valve is assembled. When I open close repeatedly they do get cleaner..... but not enough so that I don't want to disassemble every few brews or every month.

The gunk gets inside the valve during that period of time the ball is not fully closed or open. PBW will do nothing to that valve if it is fully open or closed. You need to run your clean process with it partially open. This is a consideration/problem with automated, non-proportional ball valves. You need to cycle them multiple times if you want to get the cleaning and rinsing inside the bodies.

-BD

 

[BrunDog]

You know what's really lacking in the homebrew market? Fine-control valves for fly sparging. Ball valves don't provide enough control. One tiny little nudge on a ball valve is the difference between 1 quart a minute and 3 quarts a minute. I went to a pro brewery and they had this valve on their rig that took something like fifteen turns on a wheel to go from fully closed to fully open. That's the kind of control I want when I'm fly sparging.

Not trying to pat myself on the back here... but I fixed this problem with a proportional valve. Using an arduino, flowmeter, and proportional valve, the sparge rate is automatically maintained, independent of pressure/temperature conditions. If has very fine control and a V-groove cut into the ball for more linear response to input signals.

 

[jddevinn]

The gunk gets inside the valve during that period of time the ball is not fully closed or open. PBW will do nothing to that valve if it is fully open or closed. You need to run your clean process with it partially open. This is a consideration/problem with automated, non-proportional ball valves. You need to cycle them multiple times if you want to get the cleaning and rinsing inside the bodies.

-BD

Yea, when I brew and it isn't a "disassemble and clean everything clean" I run the PBW for about 15 minutes and during that time alternate between full open and partially closed. It does a decent job, but I still find disassembly necessary every once in awhile. Some of these automated valves, like the cheapos I linked earlier, are either open or closed... I am thinking that these would be harder to get cleaned.

 

[jddevinn]

Not trying to pat myself on the back here... but I fixed this problem with a proportional valve. Using an arduino, flowmeter, and proportional valve, the sparge rate is automatically maintained, independent of pressure/temperature conditions. If has very fine control and a V-groove cut into the ball for more linear response to input signals.

It seems like I may have read a thread on this at some point. Do you have any other info posted anywhere? I would love to change my flow measurement from the cheap panel meters to something automated.

 

[BrunDog]

Look down (on your computer, anyway).

 

[kickflip_mj]

Electric valves are garbage, I have 10 of them and I cant rely on them not to fail. When one goes the other goes the next brew day. Same crap with my chugger pumps locking up and the brewtroller freezing. I guess thats what you get for spending 10k on a brew rig. I'd love to get my hands on Pneumatic valves, but in the mean time im working on buying a home. lol

 

[JonW]

Electric valves are garbage, I have 10 of them and I cant rely on them not to fail. When one goes the other goes the next brew day. Same crap with my chugger pumps locking up and the brewtroller freezing. I guess thats what you get for spending 10k on a brew rig. I'd love to get my hands on Pneumatic valves, but in the mean time im working on buying a home. lol

Wow, sorry to hear you've had so many issues. That's disconcerting when you've put so much work into it. When I previously looked at your rig, I thought maybe some of those automated valves were too close to the burners. Could heat be killing them?

I've been running automated for 5 years and rarely had any issues. Once had a solenoid actuator on my BK gas valve go out during a brew day and I just swapped the one from the HLT over to it and continued on, but other thank that, I've been pretty lucky (knock on wood).

 

[kickflip_mj]

Wow, sorry to hear you've had so many issues. That's disconcerting when you've put so much work into it. When I previously looked at your rig, I thought maybe some of those automated valves were too close to the burners. Could heat be killing them?

I've been running automated for 5 years and rarely had any issues. Once had a solenoid actuator on my BK gas valve go out during a brew day and I just swapped the one from the HLT over to it and continued on, but other thank that, I've been pretty lucky (knock on wood).

Honestly I think they are just bad valves from supplier to begin with. I ordered them from china and had nothing but issues from the get go. The ones I ordered in the USA actually sound different but look identical. Funny thing is the ones close to the burners actually work the best. I plan on going pneumatic just so I can have a fully draining true clean in place system, I will use the other valves for a CIP system hardplumbed but not off the brewtroller.

 

[firkin]

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind that statement. I can't see any reason why it would make a difference. I use 110 solenoid valves for fresh water and natural gas but all my HLT/MLT/BK ball valves are 12V and I've never had an issue. I also like the simpler wiring options available for low voltage valves. e.g. M12 connectors or other options. Using 110V means either having everything hard wired to the relays or adding a ton of 110V plugs/outlets.

To be honest I don't really understand the reason, other than I was told "the transformers/supplies for the low voltage valves cause challenges".

Personally, I had intended to go with low voltage thinking it would be easier and it is also cheaper. He's wiring up the control panel with relays and manual switches and M12 QDs to implement it. I am still talking to him about configuration. I should I reconsider going that route, and instead go DC? I might drop that from his build and just do that part myself with low voltage, as that was my original intention.

 

[aphanson17]

Has anyone tried connecting a manual ball valve to the end of an motorized ball valve? That way you can set the manual ball valve to the flow rate you want yet still get the automated ball valve for control.

 

[JonW]

Has anyone tried connecting a manual ball valve to the end of an motorized ball valve? That way you can set the manual ball valve to the flow rate you want yet still get the automated ball valve for control.

That's exactly what I do. Take a look at pics of my rig from my signature links.

I have a return valve on each kettle that is used for setting the flow rate into the kettle. It works great for fly sparging. Also note that these flow control valves are located up on the kettle instead of down on the pumps. This makes it very easy to look at the flow rate and adjust it to what you need versus bending down, adjust, stand up and look, bend down, adjust... repeat.

I usually set the rates at the beginning of fly sparging and don't often need to adjust them.

 

[BrunDog]

I use a ball valve to regulate the flow into the fermenter. It is connected on the exit of an automated 3 way which routes from the pump/chiller loop back to either the BK via the whirlpool arm or this exit. It also serves as my sparge runoff sample point. I just open it a little, grab some runoff drops, and measure with the refractometer.

 

[kickflip_mj]

Took the plunge, purchased 5 pneumatic butterfly valves to solve all my problems.

 

[BrunDog]

Took the plunge, purchased 5 pneumatic butterfly valves to solve all my problems.

This is odd to me... why not fix the real problem related to the valves you have? If they are failing perhaps another brand/style is the better route? Adding another element (pneumatic pump, tubing, etc.) to solve a problem seems you will just introduce more items to integrate and fail? Just my opinion.

 

[kickflip_mj]

This is odd to me... why not fix the real problem related to the valves you have? If they are failing perhaps another brand/style is the better route? Adding another element (pneumatic pump, tubing, etc.) to solve a problem seems you will just introduce more items to integrate and fail? Just my opinion.

My brewery is already complicated enough. Ontop of that I want to get rid of threads all together. Everything on my brewery is hard plumbed tc, this would get rid the only thing I have to clean by hand. These valves are industrial grade, and will not lock up because of the sticky wort. Also, ball valves are gross, and they can't be properly cleaned in place.

 

[kickflip_mj]

My brewery is already complicated enough. Ontop of that I want to get rid of threads all together. Everything on my brewery is hard plumbed tc, this would get rid the only thing I have to clean by hand. These valves are industrial grade, and will not lock up because of the sticky wort. Also, ball valves are gross, and they can't be properly cleaned in place.

 

[firkin]

I'm still looking for my optimal solution and looking to achieve the same goals of threadless and ease of cleaning. Where did you get the butterfly valves?

I was thinking of these ball valves: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252119500714

I'm thinking the proportional integral control would enable me to cycle them through different levels of opening to enable CIP cleaning. Couldn't find them TC, but the thought would be that I could upgrade to TC 3-way valves later and mount the ISO 5211 actuator from these onto the new ones...

 

[BrunDog]

Ball valves can be cleaned in place. You have to cycle them open and closed with hot PBW flowing through. Leaving them open or closed won't do it.

 

[kickflip_mj]

Ball valves can be cleaned in place. You have to cycle them open and closed with hot PBW flowing through. Leaving them open or closed won't do it.

I do this and you forget that there are still threads. I also don't like thay liquid sits in the valve even after I cycle.

 

[kickflip_mj]

I do this and you forget that there are still threads. I also don't like thay liquid sits in the valve even after I cycle

 

[kickflip_mj]

I purchased 2 way phnumatic johnson actuators off ebay for 28 bucks each and 5 tc butterfly valves. But I have to fab the conectors rods and the mounts for each. It's a little work but we'll worth it

 

[Gameface]

Ryan from Electric Brewing Supply (who is building my BCS-based control panel) suggested that I should avoid DC-controlled valves and go with 110v. Anybody feel differently about that?

I'm not sure what his reasoning is, but the majority of your system will be running off 110v AC (or two legs for 240v AC) and to get to DC you need an AC/DC converter. Just another part. If I could just run a wire off the bus without needing to go through a converter I'd prefer to do that if everything else was equal.

 

[kickflip_mj]

Firkin, that's pretty expensive

 

[Namako]

i spoke with our account rep at johnson controls yesterday. There is interest at jc to gain more headway into the craft brewing and home brewing markets. He will present the idea of multi-piece valve bodies that can be disassembled for sanitation with a product manager. I suggested using tri-clover flange fittings (ie no threads) for all hot side/post boil connections and threaded for pre boil.

Just curious how many of you would be interested in automated 2-way and 3-way valve bodies that can be disassembled for cleaning.

Johnson controls offer quality, reliable products. However, they are more expensive than the examples offered here.

count me in for a few!!

 

[mkosonen]

If you'd really like to remove disassembly from your cleaning process, you should consider using sanitary diaphragm valves. GEMU is one brand that makes them. They are commonplace in the biopharmaceutical industry (which is quite similar to brewing), and many high end commercial breweries. The problem is: price. Brand new they can range from $200-2000 depending on size and options. You also do need some infrastructure to manage them, namely an air compressor, electrical poppet valves to actuate them, and switches/processor to manage the actuation. However, for a true clean in place system, they are the best, hands down. They also actuate very quickly.

You can find them on eBay for pretty cheap, I've bought 20 or so of them in the last year for under 50 each (some as low as $6-10). They usually come equipped with tri-clamps already, no threads. Here's an example of a 3/4" 4-way HERE.

My system uses a bunch of them, you can see one disconnected from it's base [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5DhliV6Fso]HERE.[/ame]

And here's the whirlpool/fermentor transfer [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSIQXEByeo]HERE.[/ame]

I'm not trying to dissuade you from using ball valves, but you must consider disassembly of the valves into your brew day to get them completely clean. In reality, it all comes down to how much time you're willing to invest; it took me a long time to weld/fit everything together (9 months of fabrication), but that early investment takes a lot of time and stress out of my brew day...

Cheers!

Matt Kosonen

 

[kickflip_mj]

I agree with Matt on this one. Spend the time and get quality valves. I made the mistake of cheap valves and now I have to go back and refab a lot of plumbing. Check out saunders, itt, and gemu valves on ebay. I see them all the time.

 

[BrunDog]

I think it's funny that you posted about sanitary valves yet showed a video pumping wort into a wide open fermenter...

Just bustin' chops! Thanks for the info on these valves.

 

[mkosonen]

I think it's funny that you posted about sanitary valves yet showed a video pumping wort into a wide open fermenter...

Just bustin' chops! Thanks for the info on these valves.

I figured someone would say something haha. I was demonstrating the process. Once I start chilling, the lid goes on the brew kettle, and the tube is already sanitized and in the fermentor. Good eye

 

[firkin]

Thanks for the advice Matt. I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do with it, but I bought it...I do have compressed air, but have never worked with pneumatic control...

 

[lewandowski46]

Somebody should reach out to johnson controls and tell them they should make an affordable 1/2" motorized sanitary butterfly valve and maybe a manual version as well. Similar to these but motorized and shrunk down to 1/2" or so. They are asking right?

http://r.ebay.com/sSSk2e