Attenuation, FG questions

[pfooti]

I've seen a lot of discussion about increasing the "body" and "mouthfeel" of beer, and a fair bit just talking about the FG of the beer (and making sure it's high enough). As I understand it, there are a number of things that contribute to FG, and FG may or may not relate to body (body seems to have more to do with proteins that sometimes correlate with a higher FG, I think).

Anyway.

I could mash at 158F or so. I could add cara-pils to my grain bill. I could add malto-dextrin to my wort. I could use a lower-attenuating yeast. All of these things *seem* to influence FG (assuming a similar OG).

My question is: do they influence FG in the same fashion? If I end up with a 1.016 FG, is it the same stuff regardless of how I got there?

Answering myself- fiddling with yeast attenuation levels (using a higher- or lower-attenuating yeast, or one with low alcohol tolerance) seems to be fundamentally different from adding dextrins directly. Low yeast attenuation means there's fermentable (sweet) sugar left in the finished beer, while dextrins aren't all that sweet.

I'm mostly interested in the difference between raising my mash temperature and adding dextrine malts (or cara-pils) to the grain bill, or adding malto-dextrin to the preboil wort. Advice? Links? Books?

 

[McGarnigle]

Maltodextrin adds to the OG as well as FG. Crystal malts would also do the same thing as they are not highly fermentable. They add residual sweetness (maltodextrin does not; this is the dextrins issue). I think Carapils acts about the same as maltodextrin, but is a different form.

Low attenuating yeast or higher mash temp will not add to your original gravity, so that's a difference. Of course yeast has other characteristics than attenuation, so that affects your choice of how to get a higher FG.

 

[maida7]

can you repeat the question...

Yeah every method will give a slightly different result. How different is hard to say. I think you should experiment and see if you can come up with the combination that you prefer. Enjoy the journey!

 

[dlester]

Mr pfooti, as you mentioned mouth feel comes from dextrins and sugars. However, mashing at 158 is really sweet because your mashing out mostly non-fermentable sugars, resulting in a sweet beer with low alcohol. Your FG will be high, but it doesn't reflect alcohol potential, only sweetness. Try 154, which will give a nice balance between mashing for fermentable and non-fermentable sugars.

When I brew a light beer, but want some sweetness, I let the grains sit at 148, which is really dry. However, I include a small amount of crystal malts, which contain mostly non-fermentables and will attribute to sweetness and mouthfeel.

Another method I use is mashing the grains at 148 for dryness, then bump it up to 158 for some sweetneess and "mouthfeel." I let it sit at 148 for at least an hour for the fermentable sugars (very low unfermentable sugars) because it seems that fermentable sugars take longer to convert from the starches than 158, which I mash at that temp for 30 minutes for the unfermentable sugars.

Cheers,

 

[pfooti]

Thanks for all the speedy responses

The specific question I have is:

Assume I have attained a 1.050 (or whatever you desire) OG, but attained that OG through different pathways:

1) Mashing regular base malts at 148 degrees
2) Mashing base malts and cara-pils at 148 degrees
3) Mashing fewer base malts at 148 degrees and adding some malto-dextrin to bring the OG up
4) Mashing base malts at 158
5) Mashing a combination of base and cara-pils at 158

In each case (based on my givens, and assuming I could tweak my mashing appropriately), I'm starting at the same OG. In each case, I ferment with equivalent yeast pitching rates, etc.

I realize that my FG will be different in each case (clearly just mashing base at 148 will be much more attenuable than just base at 158), but my question is about the stuff that makes up the weight in the FG.

Is mashing at a higher temperature equivalent to mashing at a lower temperature with a carapils addition in the mash, or a maltodextrin addition in the wort? Or is the high-temp mash adding something to the wort that is different from the carapils / dextrin contribution?

 

[maida7]

Mr pfooti, as you mentioned mouth feel comes from dextrins and sugars. However, mashing at 158 is really sweet because your mashing out mostly non-fermentable sugars, resulting in a sweet beer with low alcohol.

Not exactly. A high mash temps leave dextrines. Dextrines are longer chain sugars that can not be fermenter. However they will not be perceived as sweet in the finished beer. They only add mouthfeel. You can have a dry beer that is loaded with dextriens and has a big mouthfeel.

Sweetness comes from the yeast not eating simple sugars. Also, you can get a perceived sweetness from flavors that we typically associate with sweet things like caramel, malty and fruity flavors.

 

[dlester]

Not exactly. A high mash temps leave dextrines. Dextrines are longer chain sugars that can not be fermenter. However they will not be perceived as sweet in the finished beer. They only add mouthfeel. You can have a dry beer that is loaded with dextriens and has a big mouthfeel.

Sweetness comes from the yeast not eating simple sugars. Also, you can get a perceived sweetness from flavors that we typically associate with sweet things like caramel, malty and fruity flavors.

Hmm, I have to look that up. Your probably right, but it seems that although I get full attenuation, I end up with a sweet beer at 158. Could be something else in the mix. I am always a-brew'n and a-learn'n.

Cheers