Attention All Extract Brewers - Harsh Bitterness and Aftertaste

[jescholler]

I took some samples last night while bottling, and it tasted amazing... no harsh bitterness to be found. The water I was using definitely caused the bitterness in my last batches since my process didn't change.

Awesome! You don't know how good that makes me feel. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[-TH-]

I've been following this thread for a while. I brewed a best extract kit from morebeer.com several weeks ago and just got around to bottling it last night. I had previously used bottled spring water but ended up with that harsh bitterness. I used RO water in this batch. I took some samples last night while bottling, and it tasted amazing... no harsh bitterness to be found. The water I was using definitely caused the bitterness in my last batches since my process didn't change.

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

 

[jescholler]

I suspect that the harsh, bitter after-taste in all my batches is being caused by the water as well. I tried one bottle that I found from my first batch (around 4 months ago) and the taste was very prevalent, so I'm pretty sure it's something that won't go away with time. When I brew my next batch with distilled or RO water I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

That sounds like a pretty good idea most likely. However, this experiment is showing me that using distilled water might not be the answer either in some situations. At bottling, the distilled water batch tasted slightly tart, indicating that the pH was too low. This was probably due to a mineral imbalance. I think the best way to go when using extract is to actually get the mineral profile for the water that the extract was produced in. You can see if it has a certain mineral that is too high or too low. If so, you probably want to make sure that the water you supply makes up for it.

For example, I recently learned that for the batch that inspired this experiment, I used a particular extract that I later found out was high in sodium content. When I used my water (which is high in both sodium and sulfate), it put the bitterness over the edge and made it harsh. If I would have known that ahead of time, I might have made sure that my overall sodium and sulfate concentration were as low as I could get them.

To make a long story short, in order to be sure your beer doesn't have a surprising astringency, you need to consider the total mineral content. In order to do that, you need to know the contribution of the minerals from both the extract and the water you supply. Sounds much harder than I thought it needed to be for the extract brewer!

 

[Pluto035]

Thanks for the warning. I have a feeling it's not very easy to track down what minerals are in my DME. I'll probably try brewing with whatever local spring water they sell at the supermarket around here before I jump all the way to distilled water. Maybe it'll lower the mineral content enough to not have that aftertaste.

 

[craigd]

Maybe it'll lower the mineral content enough to not have that aftertaste.

I wouldn't assume that. Many spring waters pride themselves on high mineral content... I'd see if you can find the brand online and look for a water report - many of them publish the info from their source water.

 

[Pluto035]

Well I bought about 6 gallons of distilled water and I guess I'm just gonna give it a try. The spring water available locally doesn't seem ideal and I had no idea where to find the store brand water online. At least I'll know if the taste is water related. Wish me luck! I'm brewing a recipe from Papazian's book "Whitey's Gone Fishin' Pale Ale".

6lbs light DME
1oz Amarillo hops (boiling)
3/4oz French Strisselspalt (flavor)
1/2oz Sterling (aroma)
White Labs English Ale Yeast WL002

 

[boredatwork]

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

I am glad you posted that, because that is the exact same problem I am having. Before I recap my situation, according to the water chemistry calculator at brewersfriend.com my water profile is pale and very bitter. Now, for the summary of my agony:

Batch 1: Used bottled store brand spring water. Water tasted good. Irish Red Ale extract kit from morebeer.com, and English Ale yeast (substitution). Full boil. Two weeks in fermenter, then kegged and force carbonated. Don't remember taste out of fermenter, but tasted very bitter after carbonation. Even up to at least six months later, still very bitter. Had a very ugly lacing and foam on top of the beer. Dumped after six months.

Batch 2: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. Scottish Ale extract kit from morebeer.com, and English Ale yeast (substitution). Full boil. Six weeks in fermenter, then kegged and forced carbonated. Tasted very sweet out of the fermenter, but after carbonating tasted very bitter. Months later, still very bitter. Very, very, very similar in taste and flavor to Irish Red beer from Batch #1 (almost indistinguishable). Had a very ugly lacing and foam on top of the beer. Dumped.

Batch 3: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. All grain BM's SWMBO Slayer recipe, ingredients from Brewer's Warehouse. Added gypsum and table salt to correct chloride:sulphate ratio to malty, but at least some of it precipitated out since I added it to the strike kettle for mash and sparge, and there was definitely a white crusty residue left in the kettle after dumping the water into the mash tun. Four weeks in the fermenter, then crash cooled in a keg for a week, then transferred to another keg and carbonated. Tasted sweet out of the fermenter, but after a week of carbonation has same bitter flavor as Bath #1 and Batch #2.

Batch 4: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. All grain Bavarian Hefeweizen recipe. Added gypsum and table salt to correct chloride:sulphate ratio to malty. This time I made the salt additions into the mash, and into the wort, so none of it precipitated out. Three weeks in the fermeter then kegged and force carbonated. Tasted very sweet out of the fermenter. I haven't tasted it after carbonation yet.

I just realized this post will have a certain level of suspense since everything is hinging on me tasting Batch #4. Although I was severely disappointed to find the bitter taste in Batch #3 I am hoping it is because I did the salt additions incorrectly. Since each batch had used different methods and timing, I am hoping the water is the only common theme (and although the first batch was bottled water, I am wondering/hoping that it has a similar mineral profile to my tap). Since Batch #4 was the only one where I correctly adjusted to water, I am really hoping that it comes out tasting great. I will taste it later tonight and report back with my findings.

Is anyone else finding that the bitterness comes only after carbonating?

 

[boredatwork]

Actually, if possible, it would be useful if people could enter their waters mineral profile into the calculator here Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend and report back what the Sulphate : Chloride ratio, Alkalinity and SRM, and Estimated pH results are at the bottom.

It would also be useful to have this information for both non adjusted and adjusted water, and for water used in beers with and without the bitterness.

I would have to look up my adjusted water profiles at home, but I can give the results of my water out of the tap:

Sulphate : Chloride ratio highly bitter
Alkalinity and SRM pale beer (0-50 ppm Alkalinity)
Estimated pH pH = 5.84, residual alkalinity = 25.37

 

[boredatwork]

I am also wondering if carbon filtration effects the mineral profile...

 

[jescholler]

Is anyone else finding that the bitterness comes only after carbonating?

I find that it's definitely more noticeable, but I did detect it in the tap water batch of this experiment at bottling.

I noticed you are using table salt and gypsum. I would be very careful to only add a very small amount of one or the other. Table salt is sodium chloride and gypsum is calcium sulfate. If you add both of those in normal amounts, you could end up with high concentrations of both sodium and sulfate. That will give the harsh bitterness that you've been having.

I would recommend using calcium chloride to adjust the chloride to sulfate ratio if you are also using gypsum. As Palmer says "The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium".

 

[jescholler]

I am also wondering if carbon filtration effects the mineral profile...

From Wikipedia:
Carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, and volatile organic compounds (VOCs) from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.

 

[boredatwork]

I actually use the brewers friend calcualtor to figure out my additions. I have calcium chloride but didn't use it because it was messing up one of the parameters. Salt and gypsum was the only combination that worked.

 

[thesanch]

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

In my last batches at bottling time, the bitterness was there but very mild... almost indistinguishable. It was definitely very noticeable after carbonation.

 

[boredatwork]

Now, for the result that everyone has been waiting for...(chirp, chirp).

Anyway, I didn't have time to taste my Batch #4 last night, so I had a little sip today at lunch. I was so nervous since this was such a critical moment. After going through all of the information in my previous post I realized what a big deal this problem is. And if Batch #4 didn't work out then I was at a dead end in terms of fixing the problem.

The good news is that I tasted Batch #4 and it DID NOT have the bitter taste that was present in Batches #1-3. It tasted like a real Hefe!

Now, before everyone gets excited, I think there are two reasons to bring some skepticism to the table. First, I want to see if the taste develops with age. I don't think it will, but this batch is only a week and a half out of fermentation, and I don't remember at what point I tasted the bitterness in the other batches. Second, Batch #4 is a wheat beer with a very unique hefe yeast. So in my mind it is a bit different and may not be fair to compare one-to-one.

However, I have now have a great deal of hope. My plan is to take the water adjustment technique from batch #4 and apply it to a new batch using a recipe from one of the earlier overly bitter beers. So, in other words, I should have results in about two months, haha.

Assuming, however, the problem is identified and solved, the recommendation based on my experience is to use chapter 15.3 of How to Brew to get your sulphate:chloride ratio in line (of course, keeping everything else in check as well). The calculator on brewersfriend.com is a real help and I would highly recommend it to anyway, since going through those calculations by hand is tedious and very error-prone. And as was mentioned already you really don't want to mess it up.

Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend

Lastly, as further evidence, it would be nice to see some postings on mineral content levels from people who are experiencing this problem. At a minimum we need

Ca+2
Mg+2
SO4-2
Na+
Cl-
HCO3-

 

[boredatwork]

In my last batches at bottling time, the bitterness was there but very mild... almost indistinguishable. It was definitely very noticeable after carbonation.

If a cure really has been found (by adjusting your sulphate:chloride ratio), and proven, I would still be curious to figure out why it only shows up after carbonation. Or maybe it is an age thing that just happens to coincide with the same time that most people are carbonating...

 

[-TH-]

I will do that water calc on brewers friend - thanks for the link. My water report is at home and I am on vacation until sunday.

BTW, it looks like some of you are talking about water adjustments for AG, and some for extract. Thats fine, and it sounds like both would benefit from tweaking the water, I just thought I would point that out.

 

[boredatwork]

Yes, that is one of the important things I think I found in my trials. The flavor was present in both extract and AG. I was able to fix it in an AG brew, my next test will be to try to fix an extract brew.

I think the conclusion will be that it has nothing to do with extract vs. AG but simply water profile.

 

[Pluto035]

Just to let you know, I had the harsh taste in my extract hefe as well. It was really noticeable even early in the carbing process.

 

[bell0347]

I like stuff like this. Great experiment. I am somewhat encouraged to hear others with the same weird post-carbonation off taste that some of my beers have developed. I always taste the hydro OG and FG sample. NEVER had an off taste. Sometimes though, after carbing there is this really nasty off flavor. I can smell it in the glass. The beer initially has a good taste then you swallow and there it is. I can taste it when I burp too. I have been stumped as to what would cause this carbonation off flavor.

Do any of you who force carb notice this taste or only those who naturally carb?

As far as what water to use with extract. I remember reading somewhere once that extract has everything in it that it needs to make good, healthy wort. Since it essentially has gone through mash and boil process already and is exactly that. Concentrated wort. So, seems to me that you would want to use distilled water since that is what is boiled off as water vapor in the reduction process. That and some undesireable volatile compounds. The minerals should be left behind in the wort, or extract now.

 

[WheeledGoat]

Yes, yes, yes! I wanna join the "what is causing this off flavor that I can't describe in nearly all of my beers" club! Let's get jackets!!

I have noticed that the off flavor I'm talking about does dissapate with aging - around 2-6 months...

I only force-carb. I skipped the whole bottling thing when I got into brewing and have only helped friends bottle their batches to take home after brewing at my house... and I still have it.

At first I thought it was that "extract twang" that I was tasting, till I did my first all-grain last December. That batch had it, too - and the taste hasn't really aged out of that batch. It's improved, but 9 months later it's still there. I might be hyper-sensitive to it, though. I haven't tried an all-grain since (need to get a false bottom first - not trying it again with this crapass copper tubing manifold). I'm not putting too much stock in that all-grain batch anyway cause it was anything but smooth on a lot of fronts.

My publicly-available water profile only lists 2 pertinant items:
sulfate: 28.9
sodium: 8.85

This thread has inspired me to mail my water away for analysis, so I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'm currently googling for a good company to use - any suggestions?

In the meanwhile, I might give distilled water a shot for my next extract batch.

Does RO (rev. osmosis) water = distilled water? Both are completely devoid of salts & minerals, right?

 

[boredatwork]

Most people seem to use Ward labs for water analysis. Go over to the Brew Science forum and you will see a ton of posts on lab analysis.

I also force-carb. The more I experiment/read/think about this problem I am strongly leaning to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with methods but strictly water. As in, it doesn't matter if its extract, AG, force carb, or bottle carb.

Regarding aging - the first batch I made had the bitterness - I kept that batch for at least 6 months and I still noticed it. I would say if it faded it went from like a 100/100 to 80/100. It was still overpowering. But - I guess the effect of the bitterness really depends on your water.

This is also a thread worth reading. The good stuff is post #15:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/help-me-understand-chloride-sulfate-ratio-117953/

 

[WheeledGoat]

post #15 IS some good stuff!! thanks for the link! that should be mega-stickied.

 

[-TH-]

Lastly, as further evidence, it would be nice to see some postings on mineral content levels from people who are experiencing this problem. At a minimum we need

Ca+2
Mg+2
SO4-2
Na+
Cl-
HCO3-

My tap water:
Ca+2: 44
Mg+2: 12
SO4-2: 32
Na+: 13
Cl-: 18
HCO3-: 116

Looks like my harsh bitterness might be caused by the CL to SO4 ratio (.56)?

 

[boredatwork]

Yea, according to Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend your water is suited for amber colored bitter beers.

Actually, the past few days I have been searching this site and reading a lot of posts regarding flavor problems related to water. It seems like a lot of people have similar issues. I always though having problems with your water was a rare thing, but that appears to not be the case.

Like a lot of things, I think the whole idea of not caring about your water, or "if t tastes good..." is a myth that caused me to waste a lot of money on bad brews. I've posted this a couple times already today, but I don't understand how water should be an afterthought when it can literally be scientifically impossible to correctly brew a beer with bad water?

And for those who want to test their water I came across this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/how-send-water-ward-labs-test-129581/#post1453062

 

[sharpstick]

i was using RO water, but had some sporadic problems with slow or stuck fermentation and now i use an inline charcoal filter.
i think you could also build up RO water with some basic mineral additions, or get fancy and create a specific mineral recipe.

 

[-TH-]

Like a lot of things, I think the whole idea of not caring about your water, or "if it tastes good..." is a myth that caused me to waste a lot of money on bad brews. I've posted this a couple times already today, but I don't understand how water should be an afterthought when it can literally be scientifically impossible to correctly brew a beer with bad water?

AMEN BROTHER!

 

[bwiechman]

When you talk about flavor issues can you describe it. I think I am seeing problems that can be attributed to water (should have my test results back next week). It manifests itself as a lingering aspirin type bitterness that just seems to build up in the back of my mouth and throat. Initially the flavor is good on the three batches I have done but all have lingering bitterness issues.

Is this the same flavor problem that you guys are talking about?

 

[WheeledGoat]

not sure if I'd say the aftertaste a lot of my beers share is as sharp as "aspirin bitterness" but i guess it might lean in that direction. all i know is most of my beers share it. maybe i'd describe mine as slightly medicinal or chemical-ish... one of those aftertastes that is very pronounced when you breathe out through your nose after taking a drink.
...but then again, we have different water! hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
once upon a time, i thought maybe it was the enamel pot I use for my extract batches. i also thought it might be what's called "extract twang". but then i did an AG in a completely different stainless pot (15gal) and it was still there. there's no common denominator left except water!

 

[thesanch]

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

It's been in the bottle now for 2 weeks and chilled for 3 days before I tasted it last night. I didn't detect any of the harsh bitterness that I had in my previous batches. I'll update again in another week or so, but looking good so far!

 

[bwiechman]

At any rate, I got my water tested last week and this is what I got:
Ca+2: 73
Mg+2: 26
SO4-2: 3
Na+: 11
Cl-: 2
HCO3-: 360

Hard with bicarbonates through the roof. Looks like the chloride sulfate ratio favors bitterness a little bit too.