Attention All Extract Brewers - Harsh Bitterness and Aftertaste

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I am also wondering if carbon filtration effects the mineral profile...

From Wikipedia:
Carbon filters are most effective at removing chlorine, sediment, and volatile organic compounds (VOCs) from water. They are not effective at removing minerals, salts, and dissolved inorganic compounds.
 
I actually use the brewers friend calcualtor to figure out my additions. I have calcium chloride but didn't use it because it was messing up one of the parameters. Salt and gypsum was the only combination that worked.
 
Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

In my last batches at bottling time, the bitterness was there but very mild... almost indistinguishable. It was definitely very noticeable after carbonation.
 
Now, for the result that everyone has been waiting for...(chirp, chirp).

Anyway, I didn't have time to taste my Batch #4 last night, so I had a little sip today at lunch. I was so nervous since this was such a critical moment. After going through all of the information in my previous post I realized what a big deal this problem is. And if Batch #4 didn't work out then I was at a dead end in terms of fixing the problem.

The good news is that I tasted Batch #4 and it DID NOT have the bitter taste that was present in Batches #1-3. It tasted like a real Hefe!

Now, before everyone gets excited, I think there are two reasons to bring some skepticism to the table. First, I want to see if the taste develops with age. I don't think it will, but this batch is only a week and a half out of fermentation, and I don't remember at what point I tasted the bitterness in the other batches. Second, Batch #4 is a wheat beer with a very unique hefe yeast. So in my mind it is a bit different and may not be fair to compare one-to-one.

However, I have now have a great deal of hope. My plan is to take the water adjustment technique from batch #4 and apply it to a new batch using a recipe from one of the earlier overly bitter beers. So, in other words, I should have results in about two months, haha.

Assuming, however, the problem is identified and solved, the recommendation based on my experience is to use chapter 15.3 of How to Brew to get your sulphate:chloride ratio in line (of course, keeping everything else in check as well). The calculator on brewersfriend.com is a real help and I would highly recommend it to anyway, since going through those calculations by hand is tedious and very error-prone. And as was mentioned already you really don't want to mess it up.

Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend

Lastly, as further evidence, it would be nice to see some postings on mineral content levels from people who are experiencing this problem. At a minimum we need

Ca+2
Mg+2
SO4-2
Na+
Cl-
HCO3-
 
In my last batches at bottling time, the bitterness was there but very mild... almost indistinguishable. It was definitely very noticeable after carbonation.

If a cure really has been found (by adjusting your sulphate:chloride ratio), and proven, I would still be curious to figure out why it only shows up after carbonation. Or maybe it is an age thing that just happens to coincide with the same time that most people are carbonating...
 
I will do that water calc on brewers friend - thanks for the link. My water report is at home and I am on vacation until sunday.

BTW, it looks like some of you are talking about water adjustments for AG, and some for extract. Thats fine, and it sounds like both would benefit from tweaking the water, I just thought I would point that out.
 
Yes, that is one of the important things I think I found in my trials. The flavor was present in both extract and AG. I was able to fix it in an AG brew, my next test will be to try to fix an extract brew.

I think the conclusion will be that it has nothing to do with extract vs. AG but simply water profile.
 
Just to let you know, I had the harsh taste in my extract hefe as well. It was really noticeable even early in the carbing process.
 
I like stuff like this. Great experiment. I am somewhat encouraged to hear others with the same weird post-carbonation off taste that some of my beers have developed. I always taste the hydro OG and FG sample. NEVER had an off taste. Sometimes though, after carbing there is this really nasty off flavor. I can smell it in the glass. The beer initially has a good taste then you swallow and there it is. I can taste it when I burp too. I have been stumped as to what would cause this carbonation off flavor.

Do any of you who force carb notice this taste or only those who naturally carb?

As far as what water to use with extract. I remember reading somewhere once that extract has everything in it that it needs to make good, healthy wort. Since it essentially has gone through mash and boil process already and is exactly that. Concentrated wort. So, seems to me that you would want to use distilled water since that is what is boiled off as water vapor in the reduction process. That and some undesireable volatile compounds. The minerals should be left behind in the wort, or extract now.
 
Yes, yes, yes! I wanna join the "what is causing this off flavor that I can't describe in nearly all of my beers" club! Let's get jackets!!

I have noticed that the off flavor I'm talking about does dissapate with aging - around 2-6 months...

I only force-carb. I skipped the whole bottling thing when I got into brewing and have only helped friends bottle their batches to take home after brewing at my house... and I still have it.

At first I thought it was that "extract twang" that I was tasting, till I did my first all-grain last December. That batch had it, too - and the taste hasn't really aged out of that batch. It's improved, but 9 months later it's still there. I might be hyper-sensitive to it, though. I haven't tried an all-grain since (need to get a false bottom first - not trying it again with this crapass copper tubing manifold). I'm not putting too much stock in that all-grain batch anyway cause it was anything but smooth on a lot of fronts.

My publicly-available water profile only lists 2 pertinant items:
sulfate: 28.9
sodium: 8.85

This thread has inspired me to mail my water away for analysis, so I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'm currently googling for a good company to use - any suggestions?

In the meanwhile, I might give distilled water a shot for my next extract batch.

Does RO (rev. osmosis) water = distilled water? Both are completely devoid of salts & minerals, right?
 
Most people seem to use Ward labs for water analysis. Go over to the Brew Science forum and you will see a ton of posts on lab analysis.

I also force-carb. The more I experiment/read/think about this problem I am strongly leaning to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with methods but strictly water. As in, it doesn't matter if its extract, AG, force carb, or bottle carb.

Regarding aging - the first batch I made had the bitterness - I kept that batch for at least 6 months and I still noticed it. I would say if it faded it went from like a 100/100 to 80/100. It was still overpowering. But - I guess the effect of the bitterness really depends on your water.

This is also a thread worth reading. The good stuff is post #15:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/help-me-understand-chloride-sulfate-ratio-117953/
 
Lastly, as further evidence, it would be nice to see some postings on mineral content levels from people who are experiencing this problem. At a minimum we need

Ca+2
Mg+2
SO4-2
Na+
Cl-
HCO3-

My tap water:
Ca+2: 44
Mg+2: 12
SO4-2: 32
Na+: 13
Cl-: 18
HCO3-: 116

Looks like my harsh bitterness might be caused by the CL to SO4 ratio (.56)?
 
Yea, according to Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend your water is suited for amber colored bitter beers.

Actually, the past few days I have been searching this site and reading a lot of posts regarding flavor problems related to water. It seems like a lot of people have similar issues. I always though having problems with your water was a rare thing, but that appears to not be the case.

Like a lot of things, I think the whole idea of not caring about your water, or "if t tastes good..." is a myth that caused me to waste a lot of money on bad brews. I've posted this a couple times already today, but I don't understand how water should be an afterthought when it can literally be scientifically impossible to correctly brew a beer with bad water?

And for those who want to test their water I came across this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/how-send-water-ward-labs-test-129581/#post1453062
 
i was using RO water, but had some sporadic problems with slow or stuck fermentation and now i use an inline charcoal filter.
i think you could also build up RO water with some basic mineral additions, or get fancy and create a specific mineral recipe.
 
Like a lot of things, I think the whole idea of not caring about your water, or "if it tastes good..." is a myth that caused me to waste a lot of money on bad brews. I've posted this a couple times already today, but I don't understand how water should be an afterthought when it can literally be scientifically impossible to correctly brew a beer with bad water?

AMEN BROTHER!
 
When you talk about flavor issues can you describe it. I think I am seeing problems that can be attributed to water (should have my test results back next week). It manifests itself as a lingering aspirin type bitterness that just seems to build up in the back of my mouth and throat. Initially the flavor is good on the three batches I have done but all have lingering bitterness issues.

Is this the same flavor problem that you guys are talking about?
 
not sure if I'd say the aftertaste a lot of my beers share is as sharp as "aspirin bitterness" but i guess it might lean in that direction. all i know is most of my beers share it. maybe i'd describe mine as slightly medicinal or chemical-ish... one of those aftertastes that is very pronounced when you breathe out through your nose after taking a drink.
...but then again, we have different water! hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
once upon a time, i thought maybe it was the enamel pot I use for my extract batches. i also thought it might be what's called "extract twang". but then i did an AG in a completely different stainless pot (15gal) and it was still there. there's no common denominator left except water!
 
Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

It's been in the bottle now for 2 weeks and chilled for 3 days before I tasted it last night. I didn't detect any of the harsh bitterness that I had in my previous batches. I'll update again in another week or so, but looking good so far!
 
At any rate, I got my water tested last week and this is what I got:
Ca+2: 73
Mg+2: 26
SO4-2: 3
Na+: 11
Cl-: 2
HCO3-: 360

Hard with bicarbonates through the roof. Looks like the chloride sulfate ratio favors bitterness a little bit too.
 
Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

I can say for the majority of my batches (7 I have drank so far) this is also the case.

I have also noticed that as the beer comes up to temp after pouring in a glass, the bitterness will fade.

I have been using spring water (first 2 batches) and tap water for the ones since then. Up until this past Sunday I always added a teaspoon of gypsum, I believe that this pushed the mineral content over the acceptable level being able to detect in the beer.

But I have also noticed that as the beer sits in the bottle the bitterness goes away. I had a cream ale in the bottle now for almost 2 months, I could barely drink it when it was younger but now it tastes better, still not good, but better. My first beer, a blonde ale, still is harsh after 4 months of aging!

So thanks everyone that has posted thus far I am keeping an eye on this thread.
 
At any rate, I got my water tested last week and this is what I got:
Ca+2: 73
Mg+2: 26
SO4-2: 3
Na+: 11
Cl-: 2
HCO3-: 360

Hard with bicarbonates through the roof. Looks like the chloride sulfate ratio favors bitterness a little bit too.

I would guess your astringency is coming from the bicarbonates in the steep (I'm assuming you use steeping grains). Unless you're using an extract that's high in sodium and sulfate, I don't expect the problem to be what I described in the OP.

So thanks everyone that has posted thus far I am keeping an eye on this thread.

I'm glad to see everyone is getting a lot of value from this thread.
 
I've done 13 extracts, drinking the 13th right now and only two batches (7th and 13th) have had this flavor. In batch 7, the flavor did not diminish with time, in fact it seemed like to got worse with time.

Last night is when I realized that my water is what caused the off flavor. Here's my water profile as far as I can tell.

Sodium: 46
Mineral Content: 392
Hardness: 187
pH: 7.5
 
I've done 13 extracts, drinking the 13th right now and only two batches (7th and 13th) have had this flavor. In batch 7, the flavor did not diminish with time, in fact it seemed like to got worse with time.

Last night is when I realized that my water is what caused the off flavor. Here's my water profile as far as I can tell.

Sodium: 46
Mineral Content: 392
Hardness: 187
pH: 7.5

Can you elaborate on "mineral content"? The sodium seems pretty low to begin with. Did batches 7 and 13 have a common extract manufacturer? Were they brewed at the same time of the year? I'm curious as to why it was only batches 7 and 13.
 
Water profile is specific to recipe. That is one explanation for only seeing the off flavors in certain beers. Bad water for one type of beer can be perfect water for another type of beer.
 
Can you elaborate on "mineral content"? The sodium seems pretty low to begin with. Did batches 7 and 13 have a common extract manufacturer? Were they brewed at the same time of the year? I'm curious as to why it was only batches 7 and 13.

I have an e-mail into my water company for more specifics. The info I gave is what is posted online in the monthly report.

#7 1/25/09 Brewers Best German Oktoberfest with the dry yeast that came with the box. At that point I didn't record what brand/type, probably Muntons.
6.6# plain light ME
8 oz Crystal 60L
4 oz Crystal 20L

#13 7/25/09 Brewers Best Continental Pilsner
3.3# plain light ME
2# plain light DME
12 oz dextrine malt

The process was the same for all my beers. All of my brews have used carbon filtered water from my frig.
 
Here's the average values from Jan 08 thru today.

Calcium = 67.5 mg/L or ppm
Magnesium = 12.5 mg/L or ppm
Sulfate = 134.5 mg/L or ppm
Sodium = 39.4 mg/L or ppm
Chloride = 13.43 mg/L or ppm
Bicarbonate Alkalinity = 145 mg/L or ppm
 
Using Palmer's spreadsheet, your alkalinity is good for 10-15 SRM beers. The sulfate concentration is pretty high and the sulfate to chloride ratio is 10:1 (very high). I would say your water is good for more bitter all grain beers (like an ESB) as long as you add some calcium chloride to get the sulfate to chloride ratio down.

For extract brewing, you will probably be in trouble if you pick up a good amount of sodium from the extract. When I contacted the extract manufacturer for the extract I was using, I found out that it had 160ppm sodium. I'm pretty sure that's what was causing my problem.

Is it possible that for your two bad batches, you used an extract high in sodium? Did you use the same extract on other batches?
 
Just put one of each of the experiment beers into the fridge. Probably mid next week SWMBO and I will do a blind tasting. Sometime after that, I'll do a blind tasting with some friends who are unaware of the experiment. Stay tuned!
 
Would Five Star 5.2 stabilizer be a possible solution to the problem? I have the same issues and have searched here to find some brewers using 5.2 to stabilize their water in a mash or even campden tablets to control the wild yeasties. Would either of these work for an extract application?
 
Those wouldn't solve the problem that I'm trying to experiment with here. I believe my problem is due to high concentrations of both sodium and sulfate. Neither of those would fix that.

They would however fix some other similar problems. It would be possible to get an astringency from your steeping grains if your alkalinity was way off. I believe that would give a "sucking on a tea bag" property to the beer. The campden tablets would remove chlorine (and I believe chloramines). Those two would give a plastic or bandage like taste to the beer, sometimes present when you burp.
 
How funny, the threads that I researched here said that using both 5.2 and campden did away with the very flavors you said using them would cause. I'm so confused! LOL! I'm keeping track of this thread to see how your progress comes along. I've got the same issues and trying to find a solution as well. Until then, I'll grab one of these off flavored beers and wait.
 
How funny, the threads that I researched here said that using both 5.2 and campden did away with the very flavors you said using them would cause. I'm so confused! LOL!

Maybe I didn't explain that as well as I should have.

Using campden will do away with the plastic/bandage/medicinal flavor.
Using 5.2 may do away with the "sucking on a tea bag" astringency.
 
I got ya. Sorry for the confusion. I appreciate you guys that have a better handle on the chemical side of things than I do. I love this hobby and really have learned more than I ever expected from these threads.
 
Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising.
So my Best Bitter has been in the bottle now for 4.5 weeks and chilled for 1.5 It tastes amazing. By far my best beer out of the 3 that I've bottled. Changing from spring water to RO/Distilled definitely improved the taste. No harsh bitterness. Just a clean tasting beer that allows you to focus on the hops and malt rather than a twang after you take a gulp. My father in law agrees! :mug:
 
So my Best Bitter has been in the bottle now for 4.5 weeks and chilled for 1.5 It tastes amazing. By far my best beer out of the 3 that I've bottled. Changing from spring water to RO/Distilled definitely improved the taste. No harsh bitterness. Just a clean tasting beer that allows you to focus on the hops and malt rather than a twang after you take a gulp. My father in law agrees! :mug:

That's awesome. Congrats! :mug:
 
SWMBO and I just got done with our 1st blind tasting of the finished beers from the experiment. The results weren't as definitive as I would have liked, but the tap water beer did have that character that inspired this experiment (although I wouldn't call it harsh). SWMBO preferred the tap water beer, but admitted that her tastes are likely different than most.

The distilled water beer was a smoother beer to me, and was less bitter than I would expect with an IBU:OG ratio of 0.73. It was slightly tart to me, indicating that the pH is too low.

After continuing to finish the two beers from the tasting, the tap water beer became unpalatable while the distilled water beer was still smooth.

While neither of the beers were perfect, I definitely preferred the distilled water beer for its smoothness. I also think that I have correctly identified the quality that I didn't like in the beer that inspired this experiment. If I were to continue to use this extract, I would probably still use distilled water, but add some salts (either chalk or baking soda) to raise the pH.

I still have two of each of the beers from the experiment, so I'll be refrigerating them for another blind tasting with some fellow brewers (probably in 2 weeks+). Sometime after that, I'll be posting an official conclusion to the experiment.
 
This is very good info!
I've tasted a weird aftertaste in my brews also and I never thought about my water.
I'm off a well and I can't believe I never thought about that, drinking from the faucet tastes fine.
I've had others taste my brew and they don't seem to taste the same thing I do...its just an aftertaste and I know its there!
When I get back to the states I'm definately going to try store bought water and see if that makes a difference!
again...thanks!
 
AmmoHouse, don't just buy buy any old water from the store since some of that water is just bottled municipal water. Look for RO (Reverse Osmosis) or Distilled water. Since both processes strip the water of all minerals and impurities. You'll get some/most of those minerals back from the extract that you use.
 
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