Ask A Pro: Do you aerate your wort?

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I believe that Is standard for dry yeasts. Something about how they are packaged.

I'm going to suggest caution with regard to generalizing behaviors and characteristics of dry yeast strains across the various yeast labs.

The generalization may be true at a specific point it time. However, dry yeast is a manufactured product. And changes in a manufacturing process is often a competitive (or comparative) advantage.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm going to suggest caution with regard to generalizing behaviors and characteristics of dry yeast strains across the various yeast labs.

The generalization may be true at a specific point it time. However, dry yeast is a manufactured product. And changes in a manufacturing process is often a competitive (or comparative) advantage.

Moreover, we yet need to see hard data on those claims that dry yeast does not need oxygen. Although the (non-rehydrated) pitched dry yeast has sterol reserves built in, the daughter cells still need it themselves, especially to be able to propagate. It's those new cells that do most of the fermentation.

In typical homebrewers processes, enough oxygen may already dissolve during transfer to the fermenter, so additional oxygen may not be needed. That doesn't mean some extra oxygen won't be beneficial, especially at higher gravities.

I have a strong feeling the dry yeast manufacturers want to make using their products as easy and straightforward as possible without additional barriers, such as re-hydration, and aeration right before or after pitching. Only do 1 (!) instead of 1-2-3.

One more thing, as soon as fermentation starts any unused dissolved oxygen is being driven by off quickly by the huge volumes of CO2 being produced.

 

[mongoose33]

Moreover, we yet need to see hard data on those claims that dry yeast does not need oxygen. Although the (non-rehydrated) pitched dry yeast has sterol reserves built in, the daughter cells still need it themselves, especially to be able to propagate. It's those new cells that do most of the fermentation.

In typical homebrewers processes, enough oxygen may already dissolve during transfer to the fermenter, so additional oxygen may not be needed. That doesn't mean some extra oxygen won't be beneficial, especially at higher gravities.

I have a strong feeling the dry yeast manufacturers want to make using their products as easy and straightforward as possible without additional barriers, such as re-hydration, and aeration right before or after pitching. Only do 1 (!) instead of 1-2-3.

One more thing, as soon as fermentation starts any unused dissolved oxygen is being driven by off quickly by the huge volumes of CO2 being produced.

I'm going to the BYO brewing boot camp in Asheville at the end of March; lots of full-day workshops, including one on Yeast that's done by Chris White, for which I'm registered.

I'm accumulating questions I want to ask him, and one is about the "dry yeast don't need oxygenation" thing. I'll report back.

 

[eric19312]

I have a strong feeling the dry yeast manufacturers want to make using their products as easy and straightforward as possible without additional barriers, such as re-hydration, and aeration right before or after pitching. Only do 1 (!) instead of 1-2-3.

I share this suspicion. Also consider the simple (to the yeast manufacturers) answer to most sub optimal yeast handling problems is to just buy and pitch more yeast.

 

[applescrap]

Why oxygenate your wort, when you can dance around the kettle in the moonlight holding rainbow unicorn stuffies?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I see a Brulosophy opportunity here. A Lallemand dry yeast added to one fermenter that has been aerated, vs. the same for no aeration.

And the follow-up would substitute a Fermentis yeast.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I see a Brulosophy opportunity here. A Lallemand dry yeast added to one fermenter that has been aerated, vs. the same for no aeration.

And the follow-up would substitute a Fermentis yeast.

And the result would likely be just like most of their experiments: no one can tell anything apart.

Sometimes it seems like their experiments indicate you could brew a perfect beer on one hand and then toss some grain in a bucket, pee on it, strain it through a dirty sock, and the panels wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[mongoose33]

I see a Brulosophy opportunity here. A Lallemand dry yeast added to one fermenter that has been aerated, vs. the same for no aeration.

And the follow-up would substitute a Fermentis yeast.

Unless they learn how to properly do the taste tests, this probably wouldn't tell you much. Their testing procedures are very questionable.

 

[applescrap]

I see a Brulosophy opportunity here. A Lallemand dry yeast added to one fermenter that has been aerated, vs. the same for no aeration.

And the follow-up would substitute a Fermentis yeast.

I agree. They have tested it 4 times.

 

[applescrap]

And the result would likely be just like most of their experiments: no one can tell anything apart.

Sometimes it seems like their experiments indicate you could brew a perfect beer on one hand and then toss some grain in a bucket, pee on it, strain it through a dirty sock, and the panels wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Ok let me see if I have this recipe right,

step one, toss grain in bucket
step two, take a piss on it
step three, strain through a dirty sock

This sinks a little low, no? I may have done the same, so at least you and I have that going for us.

 

[eric19312]

No point in rehashing the validity of the brulosophy experiments but maybe we can agree they are not designed to detect differences which would be seen as subtle differences to average craft beer enthusiasts. I believe this is to avoid false positive results which would tend not to be repeatable. Haha no point but there I did it anyway.

Given the dry yeast manufacturers seem to agree that oxygenation is not needed with their products I think it is pretty likely that any difference between oxygenating and not oxygenating with dry yeast would fall into the subtle difference category and I'd be highly surprised if it showed a difference in triangle testing.

I would be less surprised if it resulted in a slightly different final gravity and would be highly interested in that result. Their experiments do show that when tasting small samples of beer it is hard to tell them apart but I'm a believer in pursuit of digestibility -- for example making sessionable beers that will not make me feel like I've already eaten dinner if I have 3-4 pints over a couple hours. Sure I might not detect difference between 1.005 and 1.010 in a triangle test with small samples from same grist, but I know the carb difference would be substantial and those carbs have to go somewhere.

1.050 OG to 1.010 is a 5.3% beer, 164 calories and 15.2 grams of carbs per 12 oz
1.050 OG to 1.005 is a 5.9% beer, 162 calories and 11.4 grams of carbs per 12 oz
(calculated values)
I'm currently working on brewing brut IPAs and aiming for FG of 0.995 which brings that 1.050 beer to 7.3% alcohol, 157 calories and 3.8 grams of carbs. 7.3% is too high ABV for me to consider sessionable so I am going to try 1.040 OG which would be 6% ABV...125 calories and 2.3 grams of carbs.

Back to the brulosophy experiments the triangle test is the primary endpoint. OK and if you only read the headlines I guess that is what you get. But the write ups provide plenty of additional data. I don't understand disregarding all that interesting data just because you doubt the validity of the triangle testing results.

 

[mongoose33]

No point in rehashing the validity of the brulosophy experiments but maybe we can agree they are not designed to detect differences which would be seen as subtle differences to average craft beer enthusiasts. I believe this is to avoid false positive results which would tend not to be repeatable. Haha no point but there I did it anyway.

<snip>

Back to the brulosophy experiments the triangle test is the primary endpoint. OK and if you only read the headlines I guess that is what you get. But the write ups provide plenty of additional data. I don't understand disregarding all that interesting data just because you doubt the validity of the triangle testing results.

Well, they provide additional anecdotal opinions. If you want a scientific result, you're not getting it in the Brulosophy experiments. I won't rehash why that's the case, I've said it repeatedly on HBT. My basis for that view? I am a scientist.

Is Brulosophy a source of ideas one might try at home? Sure. The great trub/no trub experiment motivated me to try it at home, I couldn't tell any difference. But that's me, and just one data point.

Is it entertaining? Sure. That might be enough to keep reading it.

 

[ncbrewer]

Back to the dry yeast needing aeration... When I use dry yeast, I pour the wort into the fermenter from shoulder high. It makes a lot of foam, and it's real easy. I figure if it isn't needed, no harm done. If it actually needs a little added oxygen, it's getting it. Good either way.

(Edit: This might not be valid for a really high gravity wort.)

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Ok let me see if I have this recipe right,

step one, toss grain in bucket
step two, take a piss on it
step three, strain through a dirty sock

This sinks a little low, no? I may have done the same, so at least you and I have that going for us.

That's pretty much it.
You see, the key is the piss - it comes out at just the right temperature for the Finkelstein Method of low-temp mashing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm going to the BYO brewing boot camp in Asheville at the end of March; lots of full-day workshops, including one on Yeast that's done by Chris White, for which I'm registered.

I'm accumulating questions I want to ask him, and one is about the "dry yeast don't need oxygenation" thing. I'll report back.

I'm interested in hearing what you learn. And if the answers come with ideas of what to look for (or measure), that will help the on-going discussion. For example, I currently don't brew the style of beer that @eric19312 describes here (emphasized in bold):

Given the dry yeast manufacturers seem to agree that oxygenation is not needed with their products I think it is pretty likely that any difference between oxygenating and not oxygenating with dry yeast would fall into the subtle difference category and I'd be highly surprised if it showed a difference in triangle testing.

I would be less surprised if it resulted in a slightly different final gravity and would be highly interested in that result. Their experiments do show that when tasting small samples of beer it is hard to tell them apart but I'm a believer in pursuit of digestibility -- for example making sessionable beers that will not make me feel like I've already eaten dinner if I have 3-4 pints over a couple hours. Sure I might not detect difference between 1.005 and 1.010 in a triangle test with small samples from same grist, but I know the carb difference would be substantial and those carbs have to go somewhere.

so these types of insights (how the beer was brewed, what things to pay attention when brewing this way) are useful.

 

[Dland]

Brew on folks! What I do: Wort cooled to fermentor, bottled O2 though medical type regulator to oxygen stone/wand .5L/M for 4-5 minutes.

Then dry pitch 2 packets Fermentis yeast(10 gallon batch), 34/70, S-189 or 1 packet US-05, (mostly I use these yeasts).

I tried pitching above yeasts with no O2 also, and it works OK, but does not seem to ferment as quickly or vigorously, and I have the 02 gear already, so why not use it.

Have not tried to make a direct correlation, but it seems attenuation increased by by around .002 with O2.

Remember to clean/sanitize the stone before and after use.

 

[eric19312]

Brew on folks! What I do: Wort cooled to fermentor, bottled O2 though medical type regulator to oxygen stone/wand .5L/M for 4-5 minutes.

Then dry pitch 2 packets Fermentis yeast(10 gallon batch), 34/70, S-189 or 1 packet US-05, (mostly I use these yeasts).

I tried pitching above yeasts with no O2 also, and it works OK, but does not seem to ferment as quickly or vigorously, and I have the 02 gear already, so why not use it.

Have not tried to make a direct correlation, but it seems attenuation increased by by around .002 with O2.

Remember to clean/sanitize the stone before and after use.

That is interesting. You are using about half as much yeast as I'm using and sound happy with your results. What temperature do you pitch your US-05 at and what temperature do you ferment at? I am not very consistent with my pitching temperature ... in the summer it may be 72, in the winter I've pitched as low as 58 due to overshooting chilling. Usually ferment at 67. I'll usually see bubbles at the blowoff tube in about 24 hours but sometimes longer. I do use O2 with a stone but can't measure flow and just give it 90 seconds for 15 gallons at a flow rate that I can just hear the bubbling.

 

[Dland]

That is interesting. You are using about half as much yeast as I'm using and sound happy with your results. What temperature do you pitch your US-05 at and what temperature do you ferment at? I am not very consistent with my pitching temperature ... in the summer it may be 72, in the winter I've pitched as low as 58 due to overshooting chilling. Usually ferment at 67. I'll usually see bubbles at the blowoff tube in about 24 hours but sometimes longer. I do use O2 with a stone but can't measure flow and just give it 90 seconds for 15 gallons at a flow rate that I can just hear the bubbling.

My ale fermentation and pitch temperatures vary as well. I have a fairly temp stable cellar w concrete ceiling, but no practical means to cool it. Usually ale fermentation temps are in the 60'sF, during a heat wave, it can creep up into 70's. I cool wort with plate cooler/garden hose while it is being pumped into fermetors in cellar, so my pitch temp will vary, but is usually somewhere in the 60s. I can get it down into the 50s in the winter for lagers if I run the water long enough. If wort is different than the ambient cellar temp, it will equalize to cellar temp overnight.

Whenever cellar temp is below 60F (2/3s of the year), I make lagers. Currently cellar temp is about 45F, and I use heat wrap, insulation and PID temp controls to keep fermentation around 54F.

 

[jonny24]

I stick the hose from the kettle just a few inches into the carboy, and let the wort fall down to the bottom Seems to work okay.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I use one of these along with my chugger pump to transfer the chilled wort to my big mouth bubbler. That's the exent of my oxygenation for standard beers.

For my 1.128OG stout, I used an aeration stone prior to pitching (along with a 3 step starter on my yeast) and then did another 30 second blast of O2 the next morning. I sampled that beer out to two pro brewers on Saturday and got rave reviews.

 

[NewJersey]

I think people challenge brulosophy tests when they don't like the result (it doesn't back up their current process)

 

[day_trippr]

I don't think that's it at all. It more about how no matter what is inflicted upon the trial beers nobody in the test cohort ever notices a difference.

Then there are the clearly defective trials, like taking two obviously oxidative racking operations - one just more splashier than the other - and then having the cohort try to figure out which one was "oxidized"...when they both were.

That particular article was literally the first and only thing I've bothered to read on that site as it totally put me off of the notion there was any value there...

Cheers!

 

[eric19312]

It’s funny how many negative reviews of brulosophy come from people who swear they never read it. I get it that you are very busy and don’t want to waste your time actually reading it yet still seem to have time to come here and rant about it.

I believe the most significant finding Marshall and Co have made to date may be the power of confirmation bias.

 

[day_trippr]

"Rant"? Really...it is to laugh...