Are closed transfers worth the extra effort?

[mongoose33]

I gave it a shot and it seemed to work pretty well, although I did make a couple mistakes. Live and learn.

You've moved yourself far along. Now you have an experience base from which to make future adjustments.

I also wonder about the oxygen in the tube from the spigot to the keg. I initially opened up the spigot and tried to fill the tube with beer, before hooking it up to the keg. But I guess physics didn't like that idea, so I saw an air bubble flowing up the tube and into the spigot. I introduced some oxygen to the beer before it even touched the keg.

Yep. So the question is, how are you going to address that? One way is to allow the tube to fill with beer and vacate the tube of o2. Or you could try this:

After I purge my kegs there typically is a little CO2 pressure remaining. What you can do is hook up the QD to the gas side before you connect the tube to the spigot, and let that residual CO2 purge that tube, then as it gets to almost no pressure, direct that into the spigot without connecting, and then when it's essentially done, connect to the spigot. Voila! Purged lines. I favor this approach when transferring from a spigot.

When I pull beer out of my conical, I'll attach the line to the fermenter then use a jumper that opens up the QD that attaches to the liquid OUT post, and let the beer flush air out of the tubing. I use the butterfly valve to shut it off, remove the jumper, attach to the keg post, and go.

Overall it seemed to work well. If I looked at the keg at the proper angle, I was able to see a condensation line going up the keg and that let me know how much it filled up. I rarely have enough beer to overflow a keg, but the condensation line would help prevent that from happening if I wound up with a little extra in the fermentation bucket.

This is one reason why I like to crash my beer before packaging. I'll almost always get a condensation line on the keg as it fills, so easy to monitor progress.

The only downside to that I've found is when my garage, during the winter, is too cold and dry. I've finessed that a bit by boiling a half-liter of water in a beaker and letting the steam from it condense on the side of the keg. Works fairly well though not perfectly well. In the future I've decided I should warm the side of the keg with a heat gun so the line is more pronounced. Once or twice I've lost enough focus to have the beer come out through the spunding valve. Then I have to disassemble that and clean it.

I've tried the "weigh the keg as you fill it" approach but that's failed every time for me. Usually the scale turns off before the keg is full, and there you are. There are ways around that but I've found them futzy. The condensation line is better for me.

 

[Jako]

I just did my first closed transfer and It helped my 2nd NEIPA Immensly. However, I'll give you some tips. Be sure to remove the poppet valve on the out of your keg post and also the "insides" of the ball lock disconnect. I had issues with hop matter clogging and the transfer taking too long. I fill the keg with starsan, push it out with co2, pressure release, and continue on.

Are you dropping the cone? i had the same issue. but i never removed the poppet valve. no sense in a pressure transfer if you are going to let oxygen get in trying to replace the valve.

i give my beers extra time and brew a higher volume so i can drop more out of the fermenter. i also lift my fermenter onto the counter top and do a combo of gravity and pressure transfer it takes no time at all now.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I have one follow-up question about closed transfers. How do you know if your beer happens to be infected?

I ferment in a bottling bucket, so I don't actually see the beer without removing the lid. Then when I close transfer to a keg, I only see the beer as it flows from the spigot to the gas-in disconnect. If it's infected, would it look noticeably different as it flows through the tubing?

If not, would it look/taste different when I serve it from my kegerator?

 

[LittleRiver]

...How do you know if your beer happens to be infected? I ferment in a bottling bucket, so I don't actually see the beer without removing the lid....would it look/taste different when I serve it...

The good news is that if you follow good sanitation practices the chance of infection is low. The bad news is that you could keg and serve an infected batch, and not know it until you tasted something not quite right.

That's one of the reasons I like clear fermenters. I also like to see that fermentation has kicked off normally, and I like to know when the krausen has dropped so I can bump up the temp a few degrees.

 

[eric19312]

You could try dry hopping using a mesh bag, or put a filter on the end of your racking cane. I've never experienced a clogged poppet before but it sounds like something that should be avoided at all costs.

This did the trick. No clogged poppet relatively uneventful closed transfer kegging operation. I had to open the top of my fermentor completely to get the hop sack in there but did it quickly with a few gravity points left and think the beer came out great so not too worried about oxidation.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Closed transfers helped my heavily hopped IPAs a lot. Much brighter and more aromatic. I absolutely despise my auto-siphon and will hopefully never use that thing again.

 

[Jag75]

This is why I use bags to dry hop. I only dry hop for 5 days max . I'm not convinced that all the hops will drop to the bottom . Imo it's easier to bag em and weigh em down , open the top and place it in easily not just dropping from above and then purge with co2 . I've never tasted a beer and thought wow these hops are so muddled when dry hopped in a bag or basket .

And yes closed transfers are the way to go 100%

 

[Genuine]

I just did my 2nd closed transfer ever on an NEIPA I kegged over the weekend. Every other style I’ve kegged with the lid off like normal and it’s been fine. It’s carbing and will be ready to have by tomorrow night.

 

[augiedoggy]

disregard.. should have read the whole thread before commenting.

 

[shoengine]

Proper purging and closed transfers have made a huge difference in my beers. Before, my beers were fine as long as they were served cold directly from the keg. But if I counterpressure bottled that beer and set it to competition, it always showed signs of oxidation. I no longer have that problem.

Filling the keg with sanitizer and pushing it out with CO2 is the ONLY way to purge a keg effectively. I've also installed a gas-in fitting on my fermenter so that I can push the beer out of it without introducing air into the fermenter headspace. Very worthwhile changes to my process...in my opinion.

The questions I always have about this process are, where do you keep the starsan between purging and do you pH test it before fills to make sure it is within the acceptable sanitizing range?

 

[Blazinlow86]

I like the question OP.

Lately I'm in a funk with multiple aspects of kegging. I believe I've got a slow leak in my system and wasted 2 bottles of gas. Still not sure where it is but I suspect I need to replace some of my poppets.

When closed transfers go well they add about 90 minutes to my packaging exercise. This comes from the time to purge 3 kegs using the push the star san method followed by the slow filling from the fermentor into those same kegs.

I have a plastic Speidel fermentor sitting in a fridge about 18" off the ground. It is too heavy to lift when full so gravity draining is not an option. I have a large ss dip tube and 1/2 ball valve on the fermentor and a gas post on the lid. I can pressurize it to about 2-3 PSI without blowing the lid. Best of days filling those 3 kegs is very slow.

Most of the time however they simply will not fill. The poppets quickly plug and your closed transfer is over. I have done the thing with taking out the poppet from the post and the plunger from the connector and that works. But now you don't have a sealed system and your closed transfer is compromised anyway.

I am playing with some alternative solutions. One I have had good luck with before is keg priming. Just do a half ass purge, fill the keg, and add some sugar. Just like bottle priming. Unlike bottle priming you can also dry hop the keg at the same time. I never had much issue with settling the yeast, pulling and dumping first 2-3 pints with this method but this year will try the clear beer draft system and see how that goes.

Second strategy I am checking out is a small metabisulfite addition at kegging time. This might be able to remove the oxygen introduced by sloppy kegging. Read about it on one of those experiments and thought I'd give it a try on current batch. Can't say for sure it helped but didn't seem to create any off flavors either and the beer is still drinking well.

Last thing that has always worked well for me is to leave keg one alone, dry hop keg 2 when I start serving keg 1, then dryhop keg 3 when I start serving keg 2. Maybe I am losing hop flavors and aromas to oxidation so just add them back.

Anyway I'd be really curious to hear from homebrewers that have done closed transfers with regular fermentors and then switched over to something like the Spike CF10. Does this make packaging day much easier? Or is it just shifting the work and aggravation around?

I went from 3 carboys to the cf15. It's WAY easier in every aspect. Cheers

 

[Rodent]

I

where do you keep the starsan between purging

I keep it in the clean on-deck keg that will be next up for purging

 

[eric19312]

I went from 3 carboys to the cf15. It's WAY easier in every aspect. Cheers

thanks for the confirmation...hopefully soon for me

 

[knash3]

I've been using these filters and methods published by Scott Janish: http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/.

Often have flow problems coming out of the dry hop kegs and into the serving kegs, as in the filters around the dip tube become clogged as volume declines. Swirling often restores flow, but still may leave some beer behind. I'm reluctant to remove poppets as some have advised, as that's inviting oxygen. Next dry hop will use lupulin powder, so hopeful that less volume = less clogging. (of course, smaller particles may be problematic). Will see.

Definitely keeping oxygen away improves hoppy IPA's. I think the degree of discussion on closed transfers is evidence of the imperfect options. Things that are simple and consistently work become standard practice for all of us. Hop sacks work, but reduce utilization. Filters work, but sometimes clog. Dry hops in serving kegs works, but can lead to stale flavor.

 

[beernutz]

This has got to in the running for most typical HBT post of the year as it includes multiple tangents from OP issue, some good information, some personal insults, a bit of trolling, and a meta comment about the thread (that would be me).

 

[Blazinlow86]

This has got to in the running for most typical HBT post of the year as it includes multiple tangents from OP issue, some good information, some personal insults, a bit of trolling, and a meta comment about the thread (that would be me).

Pretty typical of HBT. With such a wide range of opinions, goals, skill levels, pickyness it's like getting all religions groups together in a room to debate who's correct. Something as simple as "is 02 actually bad for my beer" turns into a big debate lol. Cheers

 

[matridium]

I've been using these filters and methods published by Scott Janish: http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/.

Often have flow problems coming out of the dry hop kegs and into the serving kegs, as in the filters around the dip tube become clogged as volume declines. Swirling often restores flow, but still may leave some beer behind. I'm reluctant to remove poppets as some have advised, as that's inviting oxygen. Next dry hop will use lupulin powder, so hopeful that less volume = less clogging. (of course, smaller particles may be problematic). Will see.

Definitely keeping oxygen away improves hoppy IPA's. I think the degree of discussion on closed transfers is evidence of the imperfect options. Things that are simple and consistently work become standard practice for all of us. Hop sacks work, but reduce utilization. Filters work, but sometimes clog. Dry hops in serving kegs works, but can lead to stale flavor.

I skip filters and use this device I built. The idea is a sliding racking cane, I saw someone else do this and tried to improve it. This works great beceuse I can start at the top of the beer and push it in to the closed system and stay off the trub. Yes I do get some hop particles but nothing major. I usually brew Belgians with medium hop additions and no dry hops. However this transfer is from last night and it's NEIPA, no major problems, no clogging and very little hop transfer into secondary. I bypass the liquid puppets and springs so nothing to clog. If your interested let me know, I can share the build.

 

[eric19312]

I posted it in another link but this $14 inline filter was a game changer on my system.

super easy to use and just stopped the main problem...hop particles clogging poppets.

 

[day_trippr]

I do essentially the same thing - inside the fermentor...

Cheers!

 

[Jako]

Very cool. I had a issue with a coffee Baltic porter. I will have to try it next time

 

[matridium]

I posted it in another link but this $14 inline filter was a game changer on my system.

View attachment 638798 super easy to use and just stopped the main problem...hop particles clogging poppets.

Where did you purchase the online filter?

 

[kevink]

I posted it in another link but this $14 inline filter was a game changer on my system.

View attachment 638798 super easy to use and just stopped the main problem...hop particles clogging poppets.

This filter is awesome. I just started using one (2 batches so far) and it is a game changer for me, too!

 

[kevink]

Where did you purchase the online filter?

VacMotion makes them. They're called inline strainers.

 

[mongoose33]

Here's an amazon link to them:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=vacmotion+inline+strainer&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

 

[epratt]

I posted it in another link but this $14 inline filter was a game changer on my system.

View attachment 638798 super easy to use and just stopped the main problem...hop particles clogging poppets.

Do you run into problems with the poppet on the fermentation keg clogging (before it get's to the filter)? I have a screen filter like the one Scott Janish suggested in the post mentioned above but still have clogging problems at the poppet. Wondering if this may help with that problem.

 

[eric19312]

Do you run into problems with the poppet on the fermentation keg clogging (before it get's to the filter)? I have a screen filter like the one Scott Janish suggested in the post mentioned above but still have clogging problems at the poppet. Wondering if this may help with that problem.

I’m fermenting in a 60L speidel. No poppet in front of filter.

 

[matridium]

Do you run into problems with the poppet on the fermentation keg clogging (before it get's to the filter)? I have a screen filter like the one Scott Janish suggested in the post mentioned above but still have clogging problems at the poppet. Wondering if this may help with that problem.

I just transfered tonight with that filter inline but my system uses no poppets I use a straight through system that I slide into the keg as it transfers under pressure. I usually don't have much material getting though because of my design but now the filter adds that extra layer of protection and it did stop some particular matter from getting through.