Are all grain KITS worth it?
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I have bought grain kits on sale, either to make a they are or to use the ingredients separately. Part of the value of a kit depends on your equipment, and how close you are to a supplier. If you don't have a mill, buying a kit with milled grain makes more sense. Also if there's no homebrew store nearby, shipping on bulk supplies can raise their price. And if you rarely brew, some brewers don't want bulk grain around too long. All that said, I buy in bulk, mill my own, store grain in plastic bins or buckets.
I have bought grain kits on sale, either to make a they are or to use the ingredients separately. Part of the value of a kit depends on your equipment, and how close you are to a supplier. If you don't have a mill, buying a kit with milled grain makes more sense. Also if there's no homebrew store nearby, shipping on bulk supplies can raise their price. And if you rarely brew, some brewers don't want bulk grain around too long. All that said, I buy in bulk, mill my own, store grain in plastic bins or buckets.
If you have a place to store the grains, access to a mill, and plan to brew frequently— say once a month or more— then having a sack of base malt and a pound or two of various crystal and darker roasted malts is convenient. And probably cheaper in the long run.
Thanks 
I have a homebrew store walking distance but they specialise in extract kits and equipment. They do have some grain but it's more of the "add it to a recipe for flavour" sort of thing. Think 500g packs of crystal malt.
As for equipment. I have enough equipment to manage AG without buying anything. It's possible but I lack the creature comforts of a dedicated mash tun etc.
I never thought about how often I brew. I'm not a heavy drinker, I would get through maybe 3 5 gallon batches a year so maybe getting kits would be better.
Thanks.
I have a homebrew store walking distance but they specialise in extract kits and equipment. They do have some grain but it's more of the "add it to a recipe for flavour" sort of thing. Think 500g packs of crystal malt.
As for equipment. I have enough equipment to manage AG without buying anything. It's possible but I lack the creature comforts of a dedicated mash tun etc.
I never thought about how often I brew. I'm not a heavy drinker, I would get through maybe 3 5 gallon batches a year so maybe getting kits would be better.
Thanks.
If your only brewing a few times a year I'd stick to extract and steeping kits that you can get at your LHBS. Unless you don't have to purchase anything to go all grain.
I personally don't like the all grain pre milled kits. They don't mill good enough and who knows how old those milled kits are.
Does your LHBS have a mill? If so maybe they can order grain/mill for you . It's good to support your LHBS , however if they can't accommodate you then you'll have to go online. You may think your only going to brew a few times , but that could easily change.
Welcome to HBT
I personally don't like the all grain pre milled kits. They don't mill good enough and who knows how old those milled kits are.
Does your LHBS have a mill? If so maybe they can order grain/mill for you . It's good to support your LHBS , however if they can't accommodate you then you'll have to go online. You may think your only going to brew a few times , but that could easily change.
Welcome to HBT
Is this question about how good the recipes are?
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I started with 1 gallon all-grain kits. Only very simple equipment needs and it can be mashed and boiled on a kitchen stove easily. But you do get most everything you need and don't have to fuss or have leftover grain or hops you might not use for a while or ever. And no hoists for really heavy bags of wet malt if you do BIAB.
Sometimes have had 3 fermenters going at the same time. Lets you build a lot of experience and try different techniques out before you forget what you did right or wrong on the prior brew.
Though I have to add some caveats about their use and instructions. The kits I used from Brooklyn Brew Shop gave very simplistic instructions. And if followed they will give you good beer. But when you read and compare to all the stuff you read here and elsewhere you'll get scared you didn't do enough for it. Nor do you know what the ingredients are they actually give you. Grain mix and yeast is as close as you get to knowing. Not what specific malts or what specific yeast.
But they do let you build initial experience. Once you understand and can perform the basic tasks well enough, you can add in some of the techniques and additions to water or other stuff you find here and elsewhere.
I still do 1 - 2½ gallon brews. But I've moved on to just buying malts, hops and other stuff in quantities that will last me over several brews.
Sometimes have had 3 fermenters going at the same time. Lets you build a lot of experience and try different techniques out before you forget what you did right or wrong on the prior brew.
Though I have to add some caveats about their use and instructions. The kits I used from Brooklyn Brew Shop gave very simplistic instructions. And if followed they will give you good beer. But when you read and compare to all the stuff you read here and elsewhere you'll get scared you didn't do enough for it. Nor do you know what the ingredients are they actually give you. Grain mix and yeast is as close as you get to knowing. Not what specific malts or what specific yeast.
But they do let you build initial experience. Once you understand and can perform the basic tasks well enough, you can add in some of the techniques and additions to water or other stuff you find here and elsewhere.
I still do 1 - 2½ gallon brews. But I've moved on to just buying malts, hops and other stuff in quantities that will last me over several brews.
I have the right equipment to do biab. 5 gallon kettle and a few buckets, one with a spigot. I was brought a biab kit for my birthday a few years ago and never actually got as far as making anything with it.
I've done a few extract kits and I don't really enjoy working with lme which is why I want to try all grain. As for the mill, I can ask them. Worst can happen is I'm told no.
For the number of brews per year, I doubt I will do that many. 40 bottles would probably last 10 weeks. That being said, they may well go faster if I have them on a shelf. That's the speed I go through shop brought beer.
The question is whether the extra cost of buying kits is worth it compared to buying bulk grain and having to store it.
I think I'd suggest doing kits, for a while. You can try different recipes, and styles, see what you like, if you want to change them, and so on. After you've gained a little more experience, you'd be in a better position to answer your question... You'd know what grains you want the most of, or if it even turns out you hate the process or something.
I guess I'm syaing if you are currently uncertain, do some kits. At some point if you start thinking "I need a boatload of Maris Otter at pennies per pound to continue this hobby economically", that's the time to actually do that.
I guess I'm syaing if you are currently uncertain, do some kits. At some point if you start thinking "I need a boatload of Maris Otter at pennies per pound to continue this hobby economically", that's the time to actually do that.
OK thanks
There are probably 3 options here:
- Purchasing pre-packaged all-grain kits
- Purchasing individual amounts of grain for a recipe (is this what you mean by "bulk"?)
- Purchasing grain in bulk (often just base grains and maybe a few lbs of common specialty grains)
Bulk grain purchases also may require investment into a grain mill ($100 for an imported mill). Some stores sell grain by the ounce, some may require purchasing 1 lb bags (5 lb and 10 lb bags are common too).
Kit is a good way to start esp for only 3x year. there's some fun looking clones out now.
I was thinking pt 1 vs 3
I have found somewhere I can buy in volumes like pt2 butg it gets pretty expensive, though it is likely fresher grain than a kit.
I went back and looked at my local brew shop. They offer 3 (light, Amber and dark) malts in 500 an 3000 gram packs (1.1 and 6.6lbs) and then crystal and chocolate in 500g only. They don't offer milling. They don't actually say what they are exactly, but their website is pretty rubbish. They mostly sell in person.
If you want more DIY, you can save a bit buying bulk and using recipies online. You can get pretty close to a recipe @ MB with 1 or 5lb bag options, milled or not. If you can plan out two consecutive brews that use the same yeast you can save even more if you save the yeast
then for me, no? i used to buy like 4-5 bags of base malt and like 5lbs of damn near every shade of everything else?
just keep telling yourself that! speaking of which, i gotta lug this mash tun out to the garden that probably weighs 70lbs! (i so need a dolly that works on stairs AND gravel!
I've tried a few all grain kits, but find that my system and procedures result in efficiencies that are always lower than those predicted by the vendor. Plus, a bag of malt is quite a value compared to the kit prices I'm seeing these days.
BrewnWKopperKat
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... slightly off topic in a different direction
Some people find DME easier to work with. Others find LME easier to work with.
Do you have access to DME?
Some people find DME easier to work with. Others find LME easier to work with.
If your new to the obsession, kit's are a great way to learn the flavor and interaction of ingredients. I did 42 kit beers before designing my own recipes. Order them on line or at least look at the reviews. I thought Austin homebrew had good recipes.
I can recommend brewing all grain, although using DME extract is a next best. LME quality varies, and much of the pre-canned LME is old and stale, so stay away from that.
If you can source from a local shop that may well be your best avenue. They may not have certain malts/grain stocked, but can probably get them. Talk to them. Or find a better place.
If you have sources for grain, you can mill your own using a $25 "Victory" corn mill knock-off. With some adjustments you'll get a nice fine, even grind. BIAB makes lautering easy. You can also malt your own grain!
Quality of (ingredient) "kits" can vary wildly. Most that are assembled on the spot from bulk ingredients are usually OK. Those that have been sitting on a shop shelf for a few months or even years, obviously not so.
Hops should be vacuum sealed (or Nitrogen flushed) and have been stored frozen, or at least refrigerated, and ideally have a date on them, or the year of harvest.
Kit instructions can be highly outdated, so use some judgment. If you're serious about brewing, I recommend scoring copy of John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed. (2017). And read our forums!
Mind, the OP does not live in the U.S., so using MoreBeer kits and such, is no option for him. That said, only when their kits are on sale, like a "3 for," with free shipping, they can be a decent resource. However, their milling sucks, and they're a bit skimpy on hops.
If you can source from a local shop that may well be your best avenue. They may not have certain malts/grain stocked, but can probably get them. Talk to them. Or find a better place.
If you have sources for grain, you can mill your own using a $25 "Victory" corn mill knock-off. With some adjustments you'll get a nice fine, even grind. BIAB makes lautering easy. You can also malt your own grain!
Quality of (ingredient) "kits" can vary wildly. Most that are assembled on the spot from bulk ingredients are usually OK. Those that have been sitting on a shop shelf for a few months or even years, obviously not so.
Hops should be vacuum sealed (or Nitrogen flushed) and have been stored frozen, or at least refrigerated, and ideally have a date on them, or the year of harvest.
Kit instructions can be highly outdated, so use some judgment. If you're serious about brewing, I recommend scoring copy of John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed. (2017). And read our forums!
Mind, the OP does not live in the U.S., so using MoreBeer kits and such, is no option for him. That said, only when their kits are on sale, like a "3 for," with free shipping, they can be a decent resource. However, their milling sucks, and they're a bit skimpy on hops.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
... still slightly off topic in a different different direction
What type of packaging (jars, cans, pouches)? Does the packaging include 'packaged on' or 'best by' information?
There are people here who use LME. Maybe they have some tips/tricks that could make using LME easier for you.
5 gallons should be closer to 50 bottles.
And someone asked in another forum when was the last time you went to a beer distributor and bought 2 cases of the same beer.
There is something to be said for variety. Someone mentioned earlier doing 1 gallon batches. I settled on 3 gallon batches long ago. 3 gallons works out to about 30 bottles, or a case plus a 6 pack.
I am the only one in my house who drinks beer. And it does stack up quickly with 5 gallon batches. 3 batches would be 6 cases of beer. For some here thats not alot of beer. For others its too much. Everybody is different.
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LME has to be really fresh. You have to look at the date on the can. I was in a homebrew shop recently that had cans of LME that were over a year old. They’ll make beer, but I would avoid them.
I’ve used up old liquid extract by trying to hide it in a beer with strong flavors like a coffee stout or just as additional extract to make gravity for a barleywine. I’ve made some acceptable beers with it but nothing that would win any awards.
DME is a little more reliable and produces better beer imo. Liqiuid extract often also has that extract “twang” flavor as people say. Hard to describe it, kind of combination of a metallic and sour flavor. Never ran into that flavor with DME.
I will say after getting used to all grain brews, every time you do an extract brew it’s a breeze. Much shorter brew day and just about everything is easier.
There's going to be a learning curve when going from extract to all grain. A few basic things you'll need to know is starting water volume, boil off rate, strike water temp, mash temp, etc. Stick to all grain kits until you're comfortable with the process. You can always buy a mill and order kits with unmilled grain. Also, some shops have an option to double mill the grain, which is what I did until I purchased a mill. Once you've refine the process, I would then suggest moving away from kits and creating your own recipes. You still don't need to buy in bulk. Most sites allow you to order grain by the ounce.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Agreed.
But if OP has access to fresh LME, maybe someone here can help with ideas to make it easier for OP to work with.
I measure DME, mostly for starters now, into a SS bowl away from heat and humidity. Then when I pour it into the pot I dip the entire bowl into the water to rinse it clean.
Ah, this brought a smile to my face as I remember filling the trunk of the old Bonneville with Yuengling on my trips back to PA. That had to be at least a decade ago but would still the last time I got more than a case of single beer (kegs being the exception).
BrewnWKopperKat
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In the past, I used a similar process for DME (currently, I add the DME to 140F-ish water in the kettle using an electric whisk). Others, in other topics, have mentioned using different approaches for DME: make a slurry (e.g. Briess 2014), avoid pouring dry ingredients into a steaming boiling kettle, ...
What started this side discussion was OPs comment that: "I don't really enjoy working with LME". There are people here who can get fresh LME and they probably have solid techniques for working with it. Maybe the techniques could help OP, maybe the don't.
If you're just brewing 3 or 4 times a year ("3 5 gallon batches") I'd probably stick with kits. It keeps it convenient and you don't have to store a lot of grain/hops that's not being brewed. If you don't have one, I do think buying a mill is worth it for the reasons @Jag75 mentioned. I like milling my own grain plus unmilled grains have a longer shelf life than milled.
I have used DME instead of sugar in LME kits. I just don't like working with the treacle like consistency of LME. Nor do I like the off taste (I can't describe it) of brews made with LME. I am a super taster, I can typically tell when meat is going off a day or two before people can smell it.... slightly off topic in a different direction
Do you have access to DME?
Some people find DME easier to work with. Others find LME easier to work with.
The grains? They come in little bags that have been taped shut like you find in butchers. I haven't and wont buy grain from them, I can't imagine it is very fresh. Most of their bred and butter money comes from selling beer/wine kits and equipment. They also do a lot of essences and distillation stuff even though it is illegal to distil here without a license which are impossible to get unless you are a business making gallons of spirits... still slightly off topic in a different different direction
What type of packaging (jars, cans, pouches)? Does the packaging include 'packaged on' or 'best by' information?
There are people here who use LME. Maybe they have some tips/tricks that could make using LME easier for you.
5 gallons... I forgot. The Imperial gallon is bigger than the US gallon. It is more like 6 gallons in US money. Also I go the spensive' route and buy beers 4 at a time on the way home at the end of each week. I will always pick up 2 Grolsch and 2 amber or pale ales depending on my fancy. I am collecting the Grolsch bottles for brewing. A Grolsch is £1.65 while 6 flip top bottles of the same size are £12. It's cheaper to buy the Grolsch than buy the bottles and I have to drink beer at the same time... What horrible times we live in.
Bwible mentioned about not picking up 2 cases of the same beer and it made me think, going to small batch brewing may be the way to go then I can have many flavours at once. I just need to find some where that sells 3 US gallon kits because most of the places I can find, sell by the bottle number rather than by the gallon and they are typically 40 and 60 bottle kits.
Though I believe there is a Northern Brewer dealer in the UK. They will have 20 bottle kits, question is the freshness since they have travelled from the US. I had a Block Party with my kit and it was a bit sour after it fermented. Not a "The brew got an infection and soured" kind of sour, other people had no problem drinking it, it just.... Tasted sour ish to me.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Skip the kits, buy 10lb more beer bags of base malts and then smaller lots of specialty malts, a $20 scale, a basic grain mill, and hops as cheap as you cam. Now and then you can find sacks of grain on sale. You'll on your ingredients, but having a stockpile so you can brew what you want when you want to is priceless.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Good to know. I'm not a super taster, so I'm out of suggestions.
I still get all-grain kits when there is a good sale. I always check the ingredients list to see what is included (and that it's more than just 8 lbs of 2-row and .5 lbs something). Some kits will include rarer grains that you usually wouldn't buy, lots of hops combinations, other additives, and/or yeast (rarely, but some do). So, it's a case-by-case decision, but I still routinely find all-grain kits I think are worth it. I also always crush it myself, on or close to brew day.
Whether buying kits or bags of malt the quality of the malt is the important thing. Malthouses produce two types of malt, malt that makes ale and malt that doesn't. Both types of malt are on the market and both bags are stamped Brewers' Malt and the bags are labeled ale and lager malt. To know which malt is which, malthouses provide a malt spec sheet with every bag of malt, they are online. A malt spec sheet is used in brewing for determining the quality of malt before purchasing malt. A malt spec sheet provides E Caveat Emptor by letting the grain distiller who is a brewer that uses high modified, high protein, malt and the ale and lager brewer that uses higher quality, under modified, low protein, malt, which malt is which in a bag. If you are interested in buying malt from Gladfield, Weyermann, Crisp, Mecca, etc., etc., you'd go to the websites and find the malt spec sheet for the type of malt that you are interested in. That way you can buy the best malt. The important numbers to look for are modification, Beta Glucan content and percentage of protein because the higher the numbers the less suitable the malt is for producing ale and lager. Malt, 40 Kolbach and lower is under modified, malt. Protein content should be less than 10 percent. Under modified, low protein, malt is richer in enzyme content and in starch/sugar content than high modified, high protein, malt. If the numbers aren't listed on a malt spec sheet, chances are the malt failed an inspection, and no further testing was performed. Because of the high quality of the malt it is more expensive than high modified, malt. Soaking the high quality malt at a single temperature is a waste of money because less expensive, high modified, malt will produce the same final product, glucose is glucose. Under modified, low protein, malt should be used with the step mash and decoction brewing methods, where enzymes other than Alpha are activated. Malt containing high ppm - mg/L Beta Glucan should be avoided.
In a kit, the base malt can be high modified, to over modified, high protein, malt and you won't know it unless the malthouse is listed. So, if you decide on using kits make sure that you find out who produced the base malt before buying the kit.
A recipe that doesn't list the malthouse that produced the base malt is worthless because a malt spec sheet cannot be obtained. When you learn how to produce ale and lager recipes are a given they aren't needed, only a malt spec sheet is needed.
Oh wow, thanks. I will keep that in mind. Some one on reddit actually linked to me a local ish Miller that you plug in the recipe amounts and as long as they have the malt requested, they send it out pre milled. So I should be able to specify grains based on your information.
There are different ways of milling, make sure the milling is suitable for your system. Without specifications, their milling may be quite coarse, taylored to be used on (larger, commercial) micro craft brewery systems, not necessarily homebrewing systems.
Coarseness vs. fineness of the crush being the most important variable. For traditional 3-vessel brewing (fly sparging) the crush needs to be much coarser than what's ideal for BIAB, where it could be almost powder. Automatic urn-type, single vessel brewing machines need a crush somewhere in between, especially when wort is recirculated.
It just says crushed or uncrushed on the site, I will send them an email thanks.
If I do biab should I ask for fine or coarse?
Thanks
I've enjoyed kits quite a while back from Northern Brewer all grain and extract.
With that said given the cost of the kits I would think maybe jump in and get a grain mill so you can mill finer for BIAB as mentioned. There are a lot of recipes online you can use as a starting point to brew what you want.
Good luck and happy brewing!
With that said given the cost of the kits I would think maybe jump in and get a grain mill so you can mill finer for BIAB as mentioned. There are a lot of recipes online you can use as a starting point to brew what you want.
Good luck and happy brewing!
For BIAB, using a fine weave mesh bag, such as the custom ones @wilserbrewer's sells, the milling can be done very finely, almost to powder. That helps with good/high mash efficiency. So tell them that: mill as finely as possible.
Most places that mill for BIAB use a mill set to a very narrow gap. Run of the mill milling (pun intended) is generally very coarse.
Ok, now i am caught up.
If you already have a bag, and your batches are under 5 gal, consider a round drink cooler, or even a rectangle job you may have handy and do MIAB.
Only other hardware needed/preferred is a SS ball valve replacing the spigot. No false bottom, no bazooka tube needed.
I did not see the volume of your kettle, so was unsure if it would hold all of your water+grains for a single infusion mash. The cooler, even a 5 gal-ish size could help, especially with temperature maintenance on a budget
If you already have a bag, and your batches are under 5 gal, consider a round drink cooler, or even a rectangle job you may have handy and do MIAB.
Only other hardware needed/preferred is a SS ball valve replacing the spigot. No false bottom, no bazooka tube needed.
I did not see the volume of your kettle, so was unsure if it would hold all of your water+grains for a single infusion mash. The cooler, even a 5 gal-ish size could help, especially with temperature maintenance on a budget
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