Ardennes Strain

[Pehlman17]

This might be a dumb question, but is the Ardennes strain a saison strain or somewhat saison adjacent? I’m sitting here enjoying a wonderful glass of La Chouffe and I can’t help but make saison-like comparisons with this beer. Particularly a nice fresh pink peppercorn aroma I pick up from this beer. Not to mention it’s dry as a bone. One of my all time favorites for sure. Very nostalgic.

 

[VikeMan]

Not a dumb question. Here's my 2 cents. YMMV.

By Ardennes strain, I assume you mean Wyeast 3522 and/or WLP550. They are not saison strains. And I would hesitate to call then saison "adjacent," except that they happen to be from Belgium, and they do make some phenols, but then again, most belgian strains do. La Chouffe may seem dry as a bone, but it's the result of a fairly fermentable wort (perhaps including added sugar) and fairly high attenuating yeast. 3522/550 are not super high attenuators. They lack the STA-1 gene that saison strains and some other belgian strains have, so they can't ferment higher dextrins. The spice you're picking up may be, in part, due to added spices. There's always been some debate about whether or not Achouffe adds peppery spices to La Chouffe (they definitely do add coriander). I lean toward "yes," but OTOH Achouffe may have hit upon a precise mash and fermentation schedule to maximize phenols from their yeast. Wyeast 3522 and WLP550 do make some phenols, but in my experience they are rather subdued, relatively speaking. I've used both strains to make relatively "clean" easy drinkers (at low-ish fermentation temps).

All that said, I think there are some people who do call La Chouffe a saison. I guess it depends on how narrow or broad one's definition is.

 

[Pehlman17]

Very interesting. Maybe it was in fact a spice and not phenolics I was picking up on. I didn’t even consider that, haha.

I’ve never used the Ardennes strain in my home brewing, so I really only have the Achouffe beers for reference. I’m very familiar with using the typical Trappist strains (Chimay, Westmalle, etc.) and I always tend to get more fruit from those. So the level of pepperiness I was getting from La Chouffe sort of threw me. I hadn’t had it in a while and I think my brain was expecting a more “classic” Belgian blonde ale. Long story short, I finished the whole four pack. good stuff!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

All that said, I think there are some people who do call La Chouffe a saison. I guess it depends on how narrow or broad one's definition is.

And I have seen several "Saison" recipes that call for the Ardennes strain.

I have not brewed with it myself, but mostly because the descriptions do not seem to check the boxes that I look for in a Trappist style Belgian beer or in a Saison style beer. I did recently pick up a 4-pack of La Chouffe, and it is quite a nice beer. It is hard to tell how much of the character is from the yeast or from the coriander.

 

[Pehlman17]

By Ardennes strain, I assume you mean Wyeast 3522 and/or WLP550.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=163&type=YEAST&style_type=5
White Labs also claims this yeast (WLP545) is from Ardennes as well. Does anybody know how it differs from WLP550?

 

[VikeMan]

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=163&type=YEAST&style_type=5
White Labs also claims this yeast (WLP545) is from Ardennes as well. Does anybody know how it differs from WLP550?

I've never brewed with 545. Genetically (according Suregork's tree), it's in a cluster with several saison strains, and not at all near WLP550/Wyeast 3522.

 

[Pehlman17]

I've never brewed with 545. Genetically (according Suregork's tree), it's in a cluster with several saison strains, and not at all near WLP550/Wyeast 3522.

That makes sense. IIRC @dmtaylor has on his yeast spreadsheet that WLP545 could perhaps be the strain that Lallemand sells as Farmhouse, their non-diastaticus saison strain.

 

[dmtaylor]

WLP550/3522 has much more complexity than WLP545, and lower attenuation. @VikeMan is correct; these are on different wings of the genomic charts, not related at all, even though some of the characteristics are similar.

WLP550/3522 average apparent attenuation is approximately 85-87%. Even though it is technically not diastaticus... it might as well be. That's pretty high attenuation. It produces complex notes of pepper, clove, banana, pineapple, and other Belgiany stuff. It can be and has been used successfully in saison styles.

WLP545/3711/Belle has extremely high attenuation averaging closer to 95%. Commonly the FG will be 1.002 with this strain. This family of saison yeasts (the three are not exactly the same but extremely similar) has milder characteristics of pepper and lemon, much less expressive than many other Belgian yeasts. Some would say it's relatively tame and boring, although I myself like it a lot.

For an Achouffe clone, I'd reach for WLP550/3522 in a heartbeat. Expect high attenuation and dry finish, and wonderful flavors.

That makes sense. IIRC @dmtaylor has on his yeast spreadsheet that WLP545 could perhaps be the strain that Lallemand sells as Farmhouse, their non-diastaticus saison strain.

Thanks for the mention. However, I don't currently have WLP545 listed alongside Farmhouse, as the attenuation of Farmhouse is much lower at about 83-84% average. Maybe you have an older copy of my sheet. I'm thinking Farmhouse is likely more akin to WLP570. But of course this is only a wild-ass guess, too. WLP545 is almost identical to their Belle strain though.

 

[Pehlman17]

Thanks for the mention. However, I don't currently have WLP545 listed alongside Farmhouse, as the attenuation of Farmhouse is much lower at about 83-84% average. Maybe you have an older copy of my sheet. I'm thinking Farmhouse is likely more akin to WLP570. But of course this is only a wild-ass guess, too. WLP545 is almost identical to their Belle strain though.

Oops. You're right, my bad. It was Belle and not Farmhouse. I could have just opened the file and looked, but I like to live dangerously.

 

[rallenhall]

3522 has been my house Belgian strain for some time. I like the balance of the esters & phenols, especially in blondes (which is what I brew most often). I've sometimes seen WY3522 Ardennes & WLP510 Bastogne listed as options in recipes (since they both originated from the Ardennes region, I assume), but they are not the same and I much prefer 3522.

 

[PberBob]

I love 3522 and have had great luck with it. Temperature and pitch rate have a big effect on the character. I get very fruity esters from either pitching low, e.g., less than 1 pkg for 5 gal > 1.055, or warmer temps, up to 72-74 F. Colder temps ~ 62-65 F give me spicier notes. Though, not clove like Hefeweize.
I overpitched with a bigger than normal starter once and got similar mild flavors as 1056 or US-05.
I prefer to start low ~64 and let it climb to about 72 over 4 days.

For saison, I’ve used Imperial Napoleon, which has STA1. It goes to bone dry on anything and gets very carbonated in the bottle.

 

[Boleslaus]

Maybe hijacking the thread slightly but for those who have experience with 3522. Does the starter smell particularly phenolic? I gave it a smell on the stir plate and its got extremely strong phenols - almost chlorophenol level rubber. I don't know how cholorophenols would be present though - I used distilled water. Is this typical in a 3522 starter or did the yeast get too stressed at some point in its logistical lifecycle? Its been a hot summer so maybe at some point was shipped unrefrigerated? Could a super stressed starter (meaning pitching like <20m cells into a liter of 1.04) result in this? Now that its built up would a subsequent full batch pitch also maintain those off-flavors or are the new yeast cells going to be healthier?

 

[Bassman2003]

I have yet to try WY3522 but have been using Gnome from Imperial and Gnome from RVA Yeast Labs. I like it a lot for Blonde and Triple styles. I was under the impression that it is similar or the same (if that is even possible at the homebrew level) as the Ardennes strain. Any thoughts?

 

[dmtaylor]

I have yet to try WY3522 but have been using Gnome from Imperial and Gnome from RVA Yeast Labs. I like it a lot for Blonde and Triple styles. I was under the impression that it is similar or the same (if that is even possible at the homebrew level) as the Ardennes strain. Any thoughts?

My understanding is that Gnome is derived from Wyeast 3522.

 

[monkeymath]

I don't mean to pretend I know anything about yeasts, but I think the discussion in this thread is somewhat problematic in two ways:

First, the notion of a "Saison strain" itself. The definition and vaguely historical connection of Saison as a "beer style" is shaky at best, so what does it mean for a strain to be "a Saison strain"? A yeast that originates from an ancient farmhouse brewery? Or just a yeast that can produce a beer that you might pass off as a Saison? In the latter case, I think the Achouffe yeast certainly qualifies, with its intense fruity and spicy character. In spite of its "normal" attenuation, it produces a much drier beer than some "French Saison" strains, in particular Belle Saison.
I mean, this entire thread is based on the observation that La Chouffe is pretty saison-y in many ways, even if pretty boozy.

Second, some posts here immediately jump to genetic similarities and family trees. This appears to take for granted that we answered the question above with some form of ancestry and family relationship between Saison strains, although I don't think it is necessarily a given that the yeasts used in 19th century Belgian farmhouse breweries - if these even were a thing - were all closely related to one another.
And just to repeat a point that has been made countless times whenever these family trees are discussed: genetic similarity and phenotypical similarity are not the same thing.

That concludes my party-pooping for the day. TLR the Achouffe yeast is an amazing strain that can also be used to make Saison-Style beers. I don't know if there is a meaningful way to discuss whether that makes it "a Saison strain" or not.

 

[VikeMan]

Or just a yeast that can produce a beer that you might pass off as a Saison? In the latter case, I think the Achouffe yeast certainly qualifies, with its intense fruity and spicy character. In spite of its "normal" attenuation, it produces a much drier beer than some "French Saison" strains, in particular Belle Saison.

Achouffe (3522/550) produces a drier beer than Belle Saison? Not with the same wort. If it did, something went wrong with the Belle Saison fermentation (or not enough time was allowed for the diastaticus effect to kick in). That said, a Belle Saison beer could seem to be not as dry as it actually is, due to glycerin produced, affecting mouthfeel.

 

[monkeymath]

Achouffe (3522/550) produces a drier beer than Belle Saison? Not with the same wort. If it did, something went wrong with the Belle Saison fermentation (or not enough time was allowed for the diastaticus effect to kick in). That said, a Belle Saison beer could seem to be not as dry as it actually is, due to glycerin produced, affecting mouthfeel.

That's what I meant: the attenuation of Achouffe is much lower than the Belle Saison, but the beer is still drier.
Not "dry" in the sense of "low finishing gravity" - obviously, because that would be a contradictio in se - but dry in the sense of taste and perception.

Belle Saison finishes at 1.000 or even below, but leaves a thick, sweet beer. No one would think to call that beer "dry" without using a hydrometer.

 

[Snuffy]

I've brewed some really tasty and complex belgians with 3522. It does have some shades of saison in that dry complexity, but with La Chouffe it could be the coriander and Saaz combo that delivers the peppery spice notes. Great beer. I respect the skills.