Looks really tasty! I agree on combining the roasted malts. I don’t feel Carapils has ever done anything for me, and I’d ditch it in favor of more Victory. (I prefer Victory to Biscuit.).
Anyone have a solid Dark Czech Lager - Recipe
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Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
ok folks, sorry if this is the wrong thread to post this but I haven't seen the type of info I was looking for elsewhere (perhaps due to my bad searching techniques lol) but since I will be doing this Czech dark lager this coming weekend, I thought it would be ok to post this here. Im specifically looking for fermentation info for those who have used the Imperial Urkel Yeast. I think Ive read here or elsewhere that @jdauria and/or @wepeeler have used Urkel in the past as well so Id appreciate any/all input from anyone really.
Pitch Rate: My Urkel is 72% viable based on brewers friend calculator and Im planning on using 1.5mil cells/ml/degree plato pitch rate for 1.057 OG. Brewers friend tells me a 2.5L starter at 1.036 would actually yield 480B cells for a 1.64M cells/mp/P pitch rate. Question: what pitch rates have peeps used? Ive seen 1.5, 1.75, or 2.0 (high gravity lager). Not exactly sure what qualifies as a high gravity lager though so, is my anticipated pitch rate OK?
Fermentation Temp Drive and Lagering: My plan is to stay in the "middle-high"end of the manufacturers temp range and hold this fermentation to 55-56F for the duration and raise it for diacetyl rest when I think there's a few points remaining. The Imperial Urkel website states: "This strain can be slightly sulphery during fermentation, but it cleans up during lagering. Fermentation at the higher end of the range will produce a beer with minimal sulfur and a light ester profile with that classic Czech edge you are looking for." Questions: 1) for those who have used this yeast, what's been your experience with the sulphur? Obviously want to avoid this myself but Im not sure if the reported sulphur is due to yeast stress (under pitching or poor temp control) or simply a characteristic of the yeast. 2) what temps do people do the diacetyl rest at? One source I read is 65-68F but another source simply states a couple degrees higher than Ferm temps. This has me confused as the temp range of the Urkel is 52-58 and while I know this is a guideline, not really a rule, 65-68F during the last few points of fermentation has me worried that it would be an "off-flavor extravaganza". So curious as to how others have used this yeast for fermentation temps--> diacetyl temps (and time) --> lagering temps and time.
As you can see from my questions above, I truly am a "Noob Brewer" as this is my first lager EVER and I have come to the conclusion that while grain bills and hop schedules are important, if I'm going to screw this up it will be because I screwed up the cold-side piece of it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Pitch Rate: My Urkel is 72% viable based on brewers friend calculator and Im planning on using 1.5mil cells/ml/degree plato pitch rate for 1.057 OG. Brewers friend tells me a 2.5L starter at 1.036 would actually yield 480B cells for a 1.64M cells/mp/P pitch rate. Question: what pitch rates have peeps used? Ive seen 1.5, 1.75, or 2.0 (high gravity lager). Not exactly sure what qualifies as a high gravity lager though so, is my anticipated pitch rate OK?
Fermentation Temp Drive and Lagering: My plan is to stay in the "middle-high"end of the manufacturers temp range and hold this fermentation to 55-56F for the duration and raise it for diacetyl rest when I think there's a few points remaining. The Imperial Urkel website states: "This strain can be slightly sulphery during fermentation, but it cleans up during lagering. Fermentation at the higher end of the range will produce a beer with minimal sulfur and a light ester profile with that classic Czech edge you are looking for." Questions: 1) for those who have used this yeast, what's been your experience with the sulphur? Obviously want to avoid this myself but Im not sure if the reported sulphur is due to yeast stress (under pitching or poor temp control) or simply a characteristic of the yeast. 2) what temps do people do the diacetyl rest at? One source I read is 65-68F but another source simply states a couple degrees higher than Ferm temps. This has me confused as the temp range of the Urkel is 52-58 and while I know this is a guideline, not really a rule, 65-68F during the last few points of fermentation has me worried that it would be an "off-flavor extravaganza". So curious as to how others have used this yeast for fermentation temps--> diacetyl temps (and time) --> lagering temps and time.
As you can see from my questions above, I truly am a "Noob Brewer" as this is my first lager EVER and I have come to the conclusion that while grain bills and hop schedules are important, if I'm going to screw this up it will be because I screwed up the cold-side piece of it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Hey Noob...your 1.64 M/ml/°P pitch rate is fine. I normally target anywhere between 1.5-2.0 depending on fermentation temps. If I ferment cold, like 48F, then I go closer to the 2.0 pitch rate. If I am closer to 52-54, I will be around 1.5. Cold fermenting at 48F needs more yeast and it's a good method as it prevents to precursor to diacetyl from forming, so no D-rest is needed. You just keep it at 48F until it's done.
When I used Urkel, I usually pitch at 50F, then let it free rise to 52, then after 2-3 days I raise it to 54 and 2-3 days later will start raising it 4° every 12 hours until I am at 68. Then I hold it there for 3 days and then slowly start bringing it down for a cold crash. If you pitch a proper pitch rate, a lager can easily be fully fermented in 6-7 days. If that happens, don't rush it off the yeast though, give the yeast time to clean up after itself. I try to keep my lagers on yeast for at least 14 days, sometimes up to 21. Then lager it for at least a month to clean up any remaining sulfur.
So being your first lager, just an FYI, don't expect a huge krausen like you get with ales. Many times with lagers, you will only get a krausen maybe 1 inch thick. Oh...and as to worrying about off-flavors from raising the temp to 68, it's not an issue...the yeast will have done most of it's work before you raise the temp and the risk of off-flavors will pretty much be gone by then.
When I used Urkel, I usually pitch at 50F, then let it free rise to 52, then after 2-3 days I raise it to 54 and 2-3 days later will start raising it 4° every 12 hours until I am at 68. Then I hold it there for 3 days and then slowly start bringing it down for a cold crash. If you pitch a proper pitch rate, a lager can easily be fully fermented in 6-7 days. If that happens, don't rush it off the yeast though, give the yeast time to clean up after itself. I try to keep my lagers on yeast for at least 14 days, sometimes up to 21. Then lager it for at least a month to clean up any remaining sulfur.
So being your first lager, just an FYI, don't expect a huge krausen like you get with ales. Many times with lagers, you will only get a krausen maybe 1 inch thick. Oh...and as to worrying about off-flavors from raising the temp to 68, it's not an issue...the yeast will have done most of it's work before you raise the temp and the risk of off-flavors will pretty much be gone by then.
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Thanks I appreciate the input! My recipe is mostly all figured out now, just need to settle on my water profile I am targeting. From my research on water profiles it seems that everything is quite low especially Ca and Na and then Cl favored over SO4. Thoughts?
Way too much crystal here in this thread. We continental Europeans didn't use crystal malt in our classic styles. Stay with pilsner, Munich, Vienna and roasted malts and you'll be good. No Cara something.
Agreed. Try to lesson or remove the Crystal and use the malt suggested keeping your brew on the "crisp" side of mouthfeel & taste.
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Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Glad to see you chime in man! I'll be the first to admit that while I haven't had an "authentic" dark Czech lager from breweries like U fleku etc, I've only had some solid beers from American breweries on this style. Im also under the assumption that us Americans tend to overthink and overdo some of these recipes anyways lol. But what confuses me about your statement is that in my own research to this style, I stumbled upon this article: There's a Czech Beer Brewers Are Obsessed With, And It's Not Pilsner and in this article the former brewmaster from U fleku recommends up to 15% Caramunich for this style. I do concede that adding victory/biscuit seems to be out-of-line with what the Czech's do, but can you please enlighten me on the "No Cara something" statement? If there are other links or if you have other info from other breweries in Europe brewing this style, I'd geniunely like to see them. Seems to me this beer style has a very wide range, at least based on BJCP 2015 standards. Appreciate your comments!
You are probably right about the Americanisation of almost everything European, beer wise. This does not mean that the result is a bad beer, APA is probably the one beer I would choose if I would have to choose only one beer style for live. But what it means is, that the result is different than the original.
I'm afraid I don't have any further links to anything related Czech dark lagers, I just know that Cara malts or crystal malts (same thing, just a different name) were not used in continental Europe back in the days when these beer styles popped up and up until today the main part of traditional breweries do not use them within their traditional styles, as they are quite.... Traditional.
You can make a sweet beer with basemalt only, and you can also make a dry beer with it, you got the whole spectrum of possibilities there, no need for crystal. For extra maltiness, look for different types of Munich or a dash of roasted malt. I'm not sure about this one but I think amber, brown and victory malts were also not a thing here in continental Europe a few decades ago, so probably also not a bad idea to ditch them as well.
European styles are all very very simple. One basemalt plus maybe another flavorful malt like Munich and if it's dark, then something roasted as well, that's it.
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Yes definitely want soft water...I usually go with something like Ca 22, Mg 8, Na 0, SO4 32, Cl 40. Usually get there with just calcium chloride and some epsom salt where I use distilled water as my base. We all learn that you want at least 50 ppm Calcium for yeast health etc, but it's really not needed in lagers per Martin Brungard who created the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and knows water profiles like the back of his hand.
I know you have your recipe pretty much dialed in, but one other tip I can give you, comes from the owner of Notch brewery here in Mass, a lager brewery that make fantastic Czech and German lagers. He recommends that Czech Dark lagers should have some residual sweetness and not be super roasty and to target medium body. He suggests Pilsner malt, Munich and Vienna and then to get the color by using Sinamar, which is a coloring agent made from Carafa malts. He also recommends doing decoction for any Czech beers over 10° P or around 1.040, but a step mash is OK too. And lastly he stays if using Floor Malted pilsner to add a protein rest at 120F Now a lot of these tips come from a video interview from over ten years ago, so he may use different methods at the brewery now, but it will still help you make a great lager.
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Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
really appreciate the input man! I will have a low "softish" water profile in mind but I use my tap water and adjust so the adjusted profile won't be as low as these specs but I think I'll be in the neighborhood anyways. Your input on Ca and Na is very helpful! I am planning on some residual sweetness due to FG targeting 1.014-1.015ish. Don't have Sinamar and will be using carafe special II and holding it at 4% only. For this first attempt at this recipe I am going with a step mash as I really don't want to try a new technique that Im not familiar with with decoction (plus I only have one burner). The protein rest recommendation "may" be outdated, not sure. But I did look up the floor malted pilsner and dark malts that I am using and according to Weyermann's specs these malts have Kolbach indexes between 36-45 which seems to fall in the "less-modified to well modified" malt categories from what I understand so I think I will skip the protein rest considering they don't seem to be "under-modified". If you think the benefit of protein rest that my "rookie" expertise did not detect, I'd be all ears. I use the anvil foundry so step mashing is easy but I ramp temps rather slowly so as to avoid element scorching as I don't recirculate that fast. Other benefits of the protein rest I am not anticipating?
Based on BJCPs comments on the style and my own experience with other dark Czech lagers (I loved CharlesTowne Fermentory version of Tmave Pivo) I am aiming for a slightly lower IBU range with sweeter balance vs the drier and higher bitterness Ive had with other versions. Seems that whenever I learn a new style, on the surface it seems easy, but then upon closer inspection there seems to be a much wider range within the styles lol. Overall though, as long as the yeast to their thang, I think this first go-round with this style, I will be in the neighborhood of the style and will modify for future editions to my liking. Not trying for a competition beer here, just a beer that mimics what I love about some of the ones that I liked to the style.
Again, I sincerely appreciate the input from you @jdauria and others.
EDIT: I have seen LOTS of peeps talking about IBUs in absolute terms ranging from 20-30IBUs, but to put it in context, what has been everyones BU/OG ratio you have been using for this style?
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Please forget bjcp for European styles. Ask the people from the specific country, not the people from America who think they know how the Europeans should brew their beer.
ITV
Well-Known Member
I recently brewed Gorden Strongs version of U Fleku which has the grain proportions of the U Fleku article. Instead of the traditional decoction mash, I used a kettle mash (Kesselmaishe) where you drain off the wort and boil the entire mash and then add the wort back for the final conversion and mashout.
I am very pleased with the results but unfortunately I am not able to find a Czech dark larger locally to compare. The beer club that I am in is having a club competition for Dark European Beers, time will tell on how my beer does.
I am very pleased with the results but unfortunately I am not able to find a Czech dark larger locally to compare. The beer club that I am in is having a club competition for Dark European Beers, time will tell on how my beer does.
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Ok, I definitely get it. Especially when I haven't brewed a specific style though, I still use BJCP simply as one data point along with all other info Ive gathered in order to put my best foot forward on the first brew. Anyways, can you comment on your experience with this style specifically in regards to bitterness? The bitterness part seems to be all over the place from relatively low to moderate IMO which is why I asked about BU/OG ratio. Thanks in advance for your opinion/experience.
This beer never was really in my focus, but the ones I had in Czech and Slovakia were neither overly bitter nor very sweet. I'd call it nicely balanced if that makes sense. I would try to brew something with 5% abv or a bit lower and about 25 ibus. But that's only based on what I've had when I've been there and it's been some time since then. I obviously didn't see any numbers except the abv. Well to medium attenuation plus 25 ibus and you should be good I guess.
This is a little extreme! Instead, think of any given BJCP style as an encyclopedia entry. You’ve got someone (maybe an American, maybe not) who’s trying to put together the entry and does some research: drinks a bunch of commercial examples, asks a number of locals and experts, and tries to put together something consistent and coherent. So it’s not a primary source, but someone is sharing the results of their research with you. You can of course do your own research (ask some locals, etc.), but there’s no a priori reason to ignore theirs.
Historically speaking, there has been enough false stuff been written about European beer in the bjcp guidelines that one could easily come to the conclusion that this is not a valid information source.
@Noob_Brewer
I’ve brewed this style once or twice in the past and would have to review notes in my computer to see how different my grain bill was than what you came up with.
One that responded to you said to his taste, all Pilsner malts produced beer that tastes the same. My taste disagrees with that… Pilsner malt I’ve used frequently are Pelton (from Mecca Grade in Oregon), Best Malz Pils (Germany), Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner (Germany), and when starting I used to use Great Western Pilsner malt sometimes. All of these have similarities because they are light in color, but pretty big differences in taste. May have to use one if you cannot get the one you want, but they are not the same.
None of the Homebrew shops in my area seem able to get BestMalz Pils right now, so I have a new bag of Weyermann Barke Pils, which is supposed to have more flavor than their standard Pils malt so we will see… Interesting story / believe it is an heirloom malt being grown again.
I’ve brewed this style once or twice in the past and would have to review notes in my computer to see how different my grain bill was than what you came up with.
One that responded to you said to his taste, all Pilsner malts produced beer that tastes the same. My taste disagrees with that… Pilsner malt I’ve used frequently are Pelton (from Mecca Grade in Oregon), Best Malz Pils (Germany), Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner (Germany), and when starting I used to use Great Western Pilsner malt sometimes. All of these have similarities because they are light in color, but pretty big differences in taste. May have to use one if you cannot get the one you want, but they are not the same.
None of the Homebrew shops in my area seem able to get BestMalz Pils right now, so I have a new bag of Weyermann Barke Pils, which is supposed to have more flavor than their standard Pils malt so we will see… Interesting story / believe it is an heirloom malt being grown again.
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply. I ended up brewing this on Sunday and went with Weyermann Floor Malted BoPils and Floor malted BoDark malts for the base grains. I asked about something like this earlier, but I really couldn't find a good answer anywhere regarding the difference between Weyermann's Floor Malted Grains vs the Barke line of grains. The sensory wheel comparison I posted earlier in this thread makes it appear these particular grains are near identical with Barke having slightly higher scores on caramel and malty aromas. Not sure I would perceive a difference myself though. I will say that the floor malted grains I used tasted fantastic when just eating them raw when I was grinding them, especially the FM Bohemian Dark! Anyways this beer is fermenting away now so we will see how it comes out.
This thread has inspired me to try my hand at brewing a Tmawe pivo as my first lager.
I can get Weyermann's floormalted Bohemian Dark and Light, and I still have my Warbro Balder Vienna malt from when I experimented with mild malt substitutes. The plan is to split the base malt evenly between Vienna, Bohemian Light and Dark, and ~ 3% Simpson black malt for colour and a little roasty touch.
Aiming for 1.045/25 IBU and and likely about 4.5% or just over.
Thought about using Celeia for late hops, 15g @30 min and 15g @10min.
Will be bottled and naturally carbed and then lagered in bottle in my beer fridge I just got an excuse to hook up again to use as a lager fridge...
Oh, and a single decoction will be employed, tbh it doesn't seem that hard to do...
I can get Weyermann's floormalted Bohemian Dark and Light, and I still have my Warbro Balder Vienna malt from when I experimented with mild malt substitutes. The plan is to split the base malt evenly between Vienna, Bohemian Light and Dark, and ~ 3% Simpson black malt for colour and a little roasty touch.
Aiming for 1.045/25 IBU and and likely about 4.5% or just over.
Thought about using Celeia for late hops, 15g @30 min and 15g @10min.
Will be bottled and naturally carbed and then lagered in bottle in my beer fridge I just got an excuse to hook up again to use as a lager fridge...
Oh, and a single decoction will be employed, tbh it doesn't seem that hard to do...
ITV
Well-Known Member
I won the beer club competition and scored a 48 (by a National Judge) in a local competition with this beer!
I was also able to compare it to several Czech dark lagers from the Czech Republic (purchased locally) and my version was missing some caramel malt flavors when served at cold, as it warmed up a bit, the caramel malt flavors came through.
OP
OP
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Yeah that’s an incredible score! I have not received anything that high in a Homebrew competition either… Now you need to enter it in some bigger competitions…
jerrylotto
Well-Known Member
Why not just throw a couple of ounces of black patent into your favorite Czech Pilsner mash? I would do it post decoction steps if you use them.
ITV
Well-Known Member
The 48 score only got me a 3rd place. Mini BOS judging does not look at scores and I was competing with similar beers (Schwarzbier).Yeah that’s an incredible score! I have not received anything that high in a Homebrew competition either… Now you need to enter it in some bigger competitions…
In my opinion, the 48 score has more bragging rights than a 1st place score.
I have entered that beer in other competitions, which I received a 36 with comments about lacking body. Maybe because it was "too cold" as I mentioned that if the beer warms up a bit the caramel malt flavors come through. The walk-in coolers at competitions are closer to freezing temps compared to my beer fridge at home (36 Deg F).
Another competition where a pro-brewer scored it a 44 with comments that he wouldn't change a thing and some people want bigger flavors. His comments seemed that he wanted to score it higher but had to be within 5 points of the other judge.
ITV
Well-Known Member
I recently brewed this beer adding some black malt to the sparge, I use Gordon Strong's method by adding non-fermentable malts to the vorlauf stage to reduce harshness.
I also used a house strain yeast (34/70) given to my by a local microbrewery (Gold Finger) with the understanding that I would share my beer that I brewed with the yeast. It is still in the cold lagering phase, should be ready the week of July 4th.
Sumisu3
Member
Just in case folks haven’t seen these…
Great article on Tmavé Pivo brewing. Just brewed mine two days ago. Now in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going after I got the temp down low enough. I used Bestmalz Pils Malt and Mangrove Jack M84 yeast.
https://dafteejit.com/2022/12/the-best-beer-i-ever-brewed/
And of course an article by Evan Rail on the beer itself.
https://beerandbrewing.com/tmave-pivo-the-czech-republics-uncommon-dark-lager/
Great article on Tmavé Pivo brewing. Just brewed mine two days ago. Now in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going after I got the temp down low enough. I used Bestmalz Pils Malt and Mangrove Jack M84 yeast.
https://dafteejit.com/2022/12/the-best-beer-i-ever-brewed/
And of course an article by Evan Rail on the beer itself.
https://beerandbrewing.com/tmave-pivo-the-czech-republics-uncommon-dark-lager/
Hi jdauria, I know this is an old thread but I am going to brew this second one that scored a 41 next month. I was able to find all the grain except for the Mecca Pelton and will use Wyermann Barke Pilsner unless I can find a place that has Pelton in stock. I ordered direct from Steinbart to get the Mecca Metolius. Looks like a great recipe, excited to give it a whirl and see what I get. Thanks for posting.
John
Barke Pils is definitely my normal go to, just had some Mecca grains to use at the time. Happy brewing!
