Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[smata67]

I corrected the spelling in my original post, maybe that's why the search wasn't optimal. I need Prime shipping, because even though I just learned about this stuff reading this thread this morning, I have to have it by tomorrow.

 

[johngg123]

First I’ve noticed someone doing a high IBU brut. How did you adjust the hops? I’ve been going very low IBU and they are great but maybe too easy to drink for 7% beer. Maybe higher IBU will slow people down a bit.

I move all the hops to the whirlpool and dry hop. You don’t want bitterness because you don’t have the sweetness to balance it out. I still am using almost a pound of hops for a 5 gallon batch! 3 oz in the whirlpool, 6 oz for each of the 2 dry hops.....Massive hop aroma (lots of oxidation management w/ CO2.)

While there is no actual sweetness, the high ABV does add body so I’m a fan of keeping the ABV around 7%.

 

[eric19312]

I move all the hops to the whirlpool and dry hop. You don’t want bitterness because you don’t have the sweetness to balance it out. I still am using almost a pound of hops for a 5 gallon batch! 3 oz in the whirlpool, 6 oz for each of the 2 dry hops.....Massive hop aroma (lots of oxidation management w/ CO2.)

While there is no actual sweetness, the high ABV does add body so I’m a fan of keeping the ABV around 7%.

OK gotcha. I was kind of hoping that you were retaining the old school roots. Have you made the original recipe enough that you can see the connection between this brut Pliny clone and the original?

As for bitterness balancing sweetness, original Pliny is not intended as far as I can see to be a "balanced" beer. Firm upfront bitterness is important part of the experience IMO. I've been missing that upfront bitterness with all the NEIPAs and now the brut IPAs too.

 

[cmac62]

I brewed one this weekend
3lbs maris otter
3lbs pils
1lb rice
1lb Rye
Mashed at 48 for 60 with a tsp of amylase.
.5 cluster 30
1.5 cluster FO
Chilled to 100 pitched WL Ultra Ferm (glucoamylase) and Omega Hornidal Keviek.

This should get down to 1.000 or lower. I hope it tastes good as this is the style of the month at my homebrew club.

While there is no actual sweetness, the high ABV does add body so I’m a fan of keeping the ABV around 7%.[/QUOTE]

Question: How does high ABV add to body when Alcohol has a SG lower than water. Isnt this why you cant use a refractometer for beer without adjustments and Brut IPAs can get down below 1.000?

 

[isomerization]

I brewed one this weekend
3lbs maris otter
3lbs pils
1lb rice
1lb Rye
Mashed at 48 for 60 with a tsp of amylase.
.5 cluster 30
1.5 cluster FO
Chilled to 100 pitched WL Ultra Ferm (glucoamylase) and Omega Hornidal Keviek.

This should get down to 1.000 or lower. I hope it tastes good as this is the style of the month at my homebrew club.

While there is no actual sweetness, the high ABV does add body so I’m a fan of keeping the ABV around 7%.

Question: How does high ABV add to body when Alcohol has a SG lower than water. Isnt this why you cant use a refractometer for beer without adjustments and Brut IPAs can get down below 1.000?[/QUOTE]

Per your question:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x

Seems to be inconclusive, but if anything, I would hypothesize that the OG would have more impact than the ABV. That is, if 2 beers of similar grain bill finished with 7% ABV, the one with the higher OG would have the increased mouthfeel.

 

[cmac62]

Question: How does high ABV add to body when Alcohol has a SG lower than water. Isnt this why you cant use a refractometer for beer without adjustments and Brut IPAs can get down below 1.000?

Per your question:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x

Seems to be inconclusive, but if anything, I would hypothesize that the OG would have more impact than the ABV. That is, if 2 beers of similar grain bill finished with 7% ABV, the one with the higher OG would have the increased mouthfeel.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense to me. Thanks for the reply, but I don't think I'll be reading the link, way to long. LOL.

 

[isomerization]

That makes sense to me. Thanks for the reply, but I don't think I'll be reading the link, way to long. LOL.

Lol just this part, not the whole article:

 

[TheMadKing]

Lol just this part, not the whole article:
View attachment 638920

That's really interesting and also explains why stouts and porters taste more full and balanced to me when they are 6-7% abv while lower gravity versions taste like they are missing something.

 

[isomerization]

That's really interesting and also explains why stouts and porters taste more full and balanced to me when they are 6-7% abv while lower gravity versions taste like they are missing something.

Totally! I recall a Brulosophy (stay on target) experiment with mash temp that returned drastically different FGs that were not perceived as different as well.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/

 

[cmac62]

Thanks for pulling that out for me Iso. It still seems counterintuitive that alcohol adds to the body of beer, but i'm willing to exbeeriment.

 

[cmac62]

I read the above brulosophy article and all of the discussion, there is a lot of information there. For this discussion, it seems that both alcohol and unfermented long chain saccharides effect mouth feels and thus cancel each other out. LOL I know that I have difficulty telling the difference in my beer whether it was mashed at 147 or 158, other than abv by hydrometer and this is the thing for me. I'm looking forward to checking on my brut today and possibly getting the dry hop charge in there today before the yeast is totally done to help with the oxygen ingress when I open the fermenter's lid.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Today i learned that corona is on the verge of gluten free(about 20 ppm gluten). That lead me to 2 thought; do they use amlyoglucodase on corona?, are our Brut IPAs on the verge of gluten free as well? I know UltraFerm claims it reduces gluten.

 

[doug293cz]

Today i learned that corona is on the verge of gluten free(about 20 ppm gluten). That lead me to 2 thought; do they use amlyoglucodase on corona?, are our Brut IPAs on the verge of gluten free as well? I know UltraFerm claims it reduces gluten.

I doubt it. Amyloglucosidase works on amylopectin, not gluten. There is a fining agent that reduces gluten content in beer, but I don't remember what it is, since I don't worry about gluten. Anyone remember what it is?

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Clarity Ferm, maybe?

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Yes Clarity Ferm:

"In addition to eliminating chill haze, Clarity Ferm significantly reduces the gluten content in beers made with barley and wheat. Clarity Ferm treated beer made from barley or wheat will typically test below 20 ppm of gluten, which is the international threshold for brewing considered "gluten-free."
​

Thanks @day_trippr

Brew on

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I dont concern myself with gluten either, but was wondering. Thanks for the intel.

 

[cheesebach]

Clarity Ferm, maybe?

Cheers!

That’s the one. When Austin Beerworks tried their first hazy IPA, people noticed right away that it wasn’t really hazy. They posted that they used this enzyme in all their beers without thinking of the effect it might have on the haze in a NEIPA. They mentioned a “side effect” being that all their beers were “nearly” gluten free due to the use of this enzyme - something like <20ppm. So might be a good option for someone who is gluten intolerant (if there is such a thing), but probably not safe for someone with celiac disease.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Today i learned that corona is on the verge of gluten free(about 20 ppm gluten). That lead me to 2 thought; do they use amlyoglucodase on corona?, are our Brut IPAs on the verge of gluten free as well? I know UltraFerm claims it reduces gluten.

It's not just Corona, most lagers and British-style golden ales are under 20ppm just with normal brewing practices to reduce chill haze (which is mostly formed by gluten and similar proteins), but not many bother to get certified because of the expense and hassle of testing and the fact that it's impossible to guarantee that a typical draught dispense setup is not introducing gluten from contaminated tubing. It's possible to guarantee gluten-free dispense if you have dedicated lines etc but it's a lot of work and potential wastage versus just sticking to bottles.

So if you're worried about gluten for general health reasons then sticking to pale, not too strong beers should be fine regardless of whether they're certified - but if you have a genuine coeliac reaction then even 20ppm can be too much to avoid serious medical issues and even certified food/drink can be too risky let alone uncertified stuff.

 

[TheMadKing]

Today i learned that corona is on the verge of gluten free(about 20 ppm gluten). That lead me to 2 thought; do they use amlyoglucodase on corona?, are our Brut IPAs on the verge of gluten free as well? I know UltraFerm claims it reduces gluten.

I was just listening to the master brewers podcast, and they discussed this enzyme in episode 59

He said that there is a prolene specific endoprotease enzyme that will both eliminate chill haze forming proteans and reduce gluten to less than 10ppm and it's commonly used in most light lagers.

I'm brewing a new version of my Brut tomorrow with Chinook, Comet, Simcoe, and Hallertau Blanc. This one is for a competition so fingers crossed that it turns out good!

 

[isomerization]

I was just listening to the master brewers podcast, and they discussed this enzyme in episode 59

He said that there is a prolene specific endoprotease enzyme that will both eliminate chill haze forming proteans and reduce gluten to less than 10ppm

http://www.beveragefactory.com/images/guides/WLN4000_msds.pdf

 

[TheMadKing]

http://www.beveragefactory.com/images/guides/WLN4000_msds.pdf

That's the one, and it also explains why he didn't name it, since it's proprietary. Thanks!

 

[TheMadKing]

So one other thing he mentioned in that podcast was the issue of glucose suppression when using glucoamylase. So I thought I would pass on his warning:

Glucose suppression is basically when yeast eats a steady diet of glucose, it suppresses the genes needed to metabolize other sugars. So his advice was that use of glucoamylase should be "all or none".

The problem presented by glucose suppression in brewing (if I understand it correctly) is when you use a small amount of glucoamylase, it will create enough glucose to cause glucose suppression to occur in the yeast, but leave enough complex sugars that you can actually decrease overall attenuation. The solution to this problem is to just use enough glucoamylase to convert everything but the amylopectins to glucose, and then the glucose suppression will still happen, but it no longer matters because almost everything is glucose anyway.

Thought it was an interesting "gotcha" that can happen with Brut IPA's

 

[jaymosbeershack]

There was an article in zymergy a few months back that suggested add the enzyme on day 2 or 3 of fermentation to prevent glucose suppression.

So one other thing he mentioned in that podcast was the issue of glucose suppression when using glucoamylase. So I thought I would pass on his warning:

Glucose suppression is basically when yeast eats a steady diet of glucose, it suppresses the genes needed to metabolize other sugars. So his advice was that use of glucoamylase should be "all or none".

The problem presented by glucose suppression in brewing (if I understand it correctly) is when you use a small amount of glucoamylase, it will create enough glucose to cause glucose suppression to occur in the yeast, but leave enough complex sugars that you can actually decrease overall attenuation. The solution to this problem is to just use enough glucoamylase to convert everything but the amylopectins to glucose, and then the glucose suppression will still happen, but it no longer matters because almost everything is glucose anyway.

Thought it was an interesting "gotcha" that can happen with Brut IPA's

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok just finalizing my recipe for tomorrow. Any last minute thoughts on this hop schedule?

BOIL
0.25 oz Simcoe @ 30 min
0.25 oz Chinook @ 10 min
0.5 oz Comet @ 0 min

WHIRLPOOL (10 min @170)
1 oz Hallertau Blanc
1 oz Simcoe
0.5 oz Comet

DRY HOP
2 oz Hallertau Blanc
2 oz Simcoe
1 oz Comet

The single chinook addition is meant to give a solid bitter/resin/pine backbone to carry the sweeter Hallertau Blanc and Simcoe additions

The overall character I'm going for is similar to Sierra Nevada Brut - more balanced toward pine/citrus, but with a secondary character of white wine/grape/tropical

 

[eric19312]

There was an article in zymergy a few months back that suggested add the enzyme on day 2 or 3 of fermentation to prevent glucose suppression.

I’ve done 9 batches this year using the brewcraft glucoamalyse. I think it is Diazyme 4. Every time I’ve used it in fermentor I get FG below 1.000. I’m using 6 mL in 17 gallons. I’m seeing fastest fermentation...maybe done in 4 or 5 days ... when I add the enzyme when chilling wort drops just below 130F.

I don’t think glucose suppression is an issue if you are willing to add the enzyme on the cold side.

 

[TheMadKing]

I’ve done 9 batches this year using the brewcraft glucoamalyse. I think it is Diazyme 4. Every time I’ve used it in fermentor I get FG below 1.000. I’m using 6 mL in 17 gallons. I’m seeing fastest fermentation...maybe done in 4 or 5 days ... when I add the enzyme when chilling wort drops just below 130F.

I don’t think glucose suppression is an issue if you are willing to add the enzyme on the cold side.

Scientific literature disagrees with your conclusion.

Your observation only demonstrates that 6mL in 17 gallons is sufficient to avoid it.

The podcast I was listening to is definitely geared towards pro brewers, so what may seem like a small amount to us, would be large if you scale it up to 30bbl or 100bbl.

I would be willing to wager that if you added 6mL to a 30bbl fermenter you would get issues.

Now your observation DOES point toward the fact that this is not likely to affect homebrewers unless someone only adds a few microliters for some reason.

 

[Miraculix]

Did anybody try doing a co-ferment with a clean ale yeast upfront and then, for the attenuation, one of the cleaner diastatic strains, when the fermentation of the cleaner strain is almost finished?

That way the diastatic yeast shouldn't contribute much flavor-wise, but still should bring the fg down into the 1.0 area. Thinking of us05 upfront and belle saison as the second addition. Belle can be fairly clean and boring.

 

[eric19312]

Scientific literature disagrees with your conclusion.

Your observation only demonstrates that 6mL in 17 gallons is sufficient to avoid it.

The podcast I was listening to is definitely geared towards pro brewers, so what may seem like a small amount to us, would be large if you scale it up to 30bbl or 100bbl.

I would be willing to wager that if you added 6mL to a 30bbl fermenter you would get issues.

Now your observation DOES point toward the fact that this is not likely to affect homebrewers unless someone only adds a few microliters for some reason.

Fair enough I was more reacting to the snippet from Zymurgy than from the podcast which I did not listen to. In my experience at a my scale waiting until day 2-3 to pitch the enzyme is unnecessary and the cost of the enzyme is negligible. I buy 4oz of the enzyme for $12 from Amazon - enough to do almost 20 half barrel batches.

One of the interesting things I've read researching this topic is that dry hopping apparantly introduces the same or similar enzymes. See the discussion of hop creep here...
https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

 

[TheMadKing]

Fair enough I was more reacting to the snippet from Zymurgy than from the podcast which I did not listen to. In my experience at a my scale waiting until day 2-3 to pitch the enzyme is unnecessary and the cost of the enzyme is negligible. I buy 4oz of the enzyme for $12 from Amazon - enough to do almost 20 half barrel batches.

One of the interesting things I've read researching this topic is that dry hopping apparantly introduces the same or similar enzymes. See the discussion of hop creep here...
https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

Yeah!There's been a lot of interesting research into hop creep recently. They are also finding that the amount of enzymes in hops are varietal dependant, and affected by kiln temps and times.. Complex stuff

Also if you're only using 6ml, I think using the entire 10g packet might be overkill in 5 gallons [emoji51]

 

[eric19312]

Also if you're only using 6ml, I think using the entire 10g packet might be overkill in 5 gallons [emoji51]

Here is the data sheet on Diazyme...Looks like it is 25-30% enzyme by weight. http://mags.datagraf.dk/epub/files/brewing e-guide/diazyme_x4.pdf The dosage rate in the fermentor is 2-12g/hL. 1 gallon is 0.038hL so I am looking at 1.3-7.7 grams for my 17 gallon batch.

Not sure if this is exactly the same enzyme that is found in the fermfast packs but note those indicate 1 pack is enough for 20 pounds of starch. If it is same enzyme, just dry...usage rage would be 0.02-0.10 grams per gallon. That pack would be enough to treat 100 gallons of wort at the max recommended dosage.

 

[TheMadKing]

Here is the data sheet on Diazyme...Looks like it is 25-30% enzyme by weight. http://mags.datagraf.dk/epub/files/brewing e-guide/diazyme_x4.pdf The dosage rate in the fermentor is 2-12g/hL. 1 gallon is 0.038hL so I am looking at 1.3-7.7 grams for my 17 gallon batch.

Not sure if this is exactly the same enzyme that is found in the fermfast packs but note those indicate 1 pack is enough for 20 pounds of starch. If it is same enzyme, just dry...usage rage would be 0.02-0.10 grams per gallon. That pack would be enough to treat 100 gallons of wort at the max recommended dosage.

Well that probably explains why my first batch turned out completely milky.

I used much less than a whole packet today, so hopefully I don't wind up with another turbid mess. I like my beers clear!

 

[doug293cz]

Well that probably explains why my first batch turned out completely milky.

I used much less than a whole packet today, so hopefully I don't wind up with another turbid mess. I like my beers clear!

Why would excess enzyme turn the beer milky?

Brew on

 

[SanPancho]

The “original “ brut made right here in sf was actually a Brett ipa. 2-3 mos ferment and bone dry, with nice fruity hops. While this is no longer kosher today it was called the “panty dropper“ as it was a big hit with female customers. (back at the beginnings of the ibu wars. “Men” were e drinking NW style ipa w crystal malt and a million ibus). Also remember a 8.5% wit bier called white lightning. Same effect.

Anyway if you pick the right Brett you get fruit not funk. But it takes time to drop those final 6-10 pts. Even a díastatic sach

 

[TheMadKing]

Why would excess enzyme turn the beer milky?

Brew on

Oh I have no basis for that at all, but the only other things in it were hops, Pilsen, and corn, and I've made plenty of clear beers with those ingredients less the enzyme. So it's pure supposition

 

[eric19312]

Oh I have no basis for that at all, but the only other things in it were hops, Pilsen, and corn, and I've made plenty of clear beers with those ingredients less the enzyme. So it's pure supposition

When did you add the dry hops? My current batch I dry hopped at full Krausen and got a hazy beer. Dry hopping after fermentation finishes they come out clearer.

 

[eric19312]

The “original “ brut made right here in sf was actually a Brett ipa. 2-3 mos ferment and bone dry, with nice fruity hops. While this is no longer kosher today it was called the “panty dropper“ as it was a big hit with female customers. (back at the beginnings of the ibu wars. “Men” were e drinking NW style ipa w crystal malt and a million ibus). Also remember a 8.5% wit bier called white lightning. Same effect.

Anyway if you pick the right Brett you get fruit not funk. But it takes time to drop those final 6-10 pts. Even a díastatic sach

I don’t think this is right. Plenty of stories credit the origination of Brut IPA to Social Brewing’s Kim Sturdavant who apparently added some enzyme to help a triple ipa dry out and thought to try it on a smaller beer. Brett IPA is another thing entirely and I agree they can be quite good...but my one experience with making was not a success and I’ve not tried again.

 

[SanPancho]

I don’t think this is right. Plenty of stories credit the origination of Brut IPA to Social Brewing’s Kim Sturdavant who apparently added some enzyme to help a triple ipa dry out and thought to try it on a smaller beer. Brett IPA is another thing entirely and I agree they can be quite good...but my one experience with making was not a success and I’ve not tried again.

I’ll spare you the details on employees that worked for us and them, how sf is a small town where everyone knows everyone else, how there were only a handful of breweries in sf a decade ago, etc.
Lets talk beer.

If you have a 2srm 1.000fg ipa with fruity hops does it somehow differ in some substantial way from a “brut” ipa with 1.000fg , 2srm and fruity hops? I say no.

Rhetorical question- your location says you live on an island originally called Paumanok. Did it not exist until some white dudes showed up and called it long island? Of course it did. Giving something a new name and claiming you discovered/invented it is not exactly uncommon. Its about as American as it gets.

Everybody imitates or takes ideas from everyone else. Think about it- the idea of a triple ipa thats extra dry is basically imitating pliny, another sf bay area beer pre-dating social kitchen. Sometimes invention is actually invention. Sometimes its just pr and marketing.

 

[bracconiere]

Amazon has the gluco with Prime at a reasonable cost, but you need to search "gluco-amylase," as the 1oz LDCarlson product for $5.99 would not show up without the dash.

i know this was an old post, but distilling sites are the best source for gluco....i get 1lb from brewhaus for $30, to my door.....

 

[TheMadKing]

When did you add the dry hops? My current batch I dry hopped at full Krausen and got a hazy beer. Dry hopping after fermentation finishes they come out clearer.

I dry hopped right when Krausen started to fall so after fermentation slowed. I also limited my dry hops because I was worried about the haze, but I was milky before I added them.

 

[eric19312]

I’ll spare you the details on employees that worked for us and them, how sf is a small town where everyone knows everyone else, how there were only a handful of breweries in sf a decade ago, etc.
Lets talk beer.

If you have a 2srm 1.000fg ipa with fruity hops does it somehow differ in some substantial way from a “brut” ipa with 1.000fg , 2srm and fruity hops? I say no.

Rhetorical question- your location says you live on an island originally called Paumanok. Did it not exist until some white dudes showed up and called it long island? Of course it did. Giving something a new name and claiming you discovered/invented it is not exactly uncommon. Its about as American as it gets.

Everybody imitates or takes ideas from everyone else. Think about it- the idea of a triple ipa thats extra dry is basically imitating pliny, another sf bay area beer pre-dating social kitchen. Sometimes invention is actually invention. Sometimes its just pr and marketing.

Fair enough. I’m not brewery insider, just an interested consumer and home brewer, so between that and geography can appreciate your different perspective.

I’d not thought of brut ipa in terms of follow on to brett ipa. I can see now how you could see it that way. When I tried making brett ipa in 2014 I was following Tonsmeier’s blog. https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html

His version was based on a collab beer called Superfriends and saw a different target than you describe without the emphasis on super low FG - lower than Chico yes but not sub 1...and did not recall the super low IBUs being part of the style at the time- MT’s version as was mine was around 90 IBUs. I’d thought the really low IBU ipa more or less came out of NEIPA evolution.

FWIW we both also used brett that wasn’t really brett wlp644, but at the time I believe most still thought that was Brett. I know others doing brett IPA at the time ... maybe Crooked Stave... were using different, probably true brett strains.